Is the touch attack from a shadow considered...

[Rogar Stonebow]

A natural attack that
Increases damage with size
Can be affected my magic such as magic fang
Can be used with a flurry of blows.

[ryric]

Rogar Stonebow wrote:

A natural attack that

Increases damage with size
Can be affected my magic such as magic fang
Can be used with a flurry of blows.

I'm a little iffy on this, but for balance reasons I'd say:

No, size doesn't change the damage
Sort of, I'd give the bonus to hit but again not to damage
Sure, I'd allow that.

In general things that increase damage don't help with oddball damage like ability damage and negative levels. You also can't sneak attack with a shadow to do an insane amount of Strength damage.

[Archaeik]

The rules aren't 100% clear on these points, from what I can gather

Incorporeal Touch seems to be treated as a primary natural attack for most purposes, but it is not expressly a natural weapon, only an "armed attack".

This also means it should be considered incompatible with Magic Fang or Feral Combat Training, since both requires a natural weapon. (FoB already disallows combining it with natural attacks.)

Lastly, it's not that the creature's base damage die doesn't increase with size, only that the Supernatural ability that arms the incorporeal touch doesn't also increase. (And that delivering it through a touch attack doesn't deal base damage.)

[Rogar Stonebow]

ryric wrote:

Rogar Stonebow wrote:

A natural attack that

Increases damage with size
Can be affected my magic such as magic fang
Can be used with a flurry of blows.

I'm a little iffy on this, but for balance reasons I'd say:

No, size doesn't change the damage
Sort of, I'd give the bonus to hit but again not to damage
Sure, I'd allow that.

In general things that increase damage don't help with oddball damage like ability damage and negative levels. You also can't sneak attack with a shadow to do an insane amount of Strength damage.

I agree on balance reasons for what you stated.

I would like the attack defined though. Even if it's just a supernatural attack.

[Rogar Stonebow]

Archaeik wrote:

The rules aren't 100% clear on these points, from what I can gather

Incorporeal Touch seems to be treated as a primary natural attack for most purposes, but it is not expressly a natural weapon, only an "armed attack".

This also means it should be considered incompatible with Magic Fang or Feral Combat Training, since both requires a natural weapon. (FoB already disallows combining it with natural attacks.)

Lastly, it's not that the creature's base damage die doesn't increase with size, only that the Supernatural ability that arms the incorporeal touch doesn't also increase. (And that delivering it through a touch attack doesn't deal base damage.)

Feral combat training was where I ultimately wanted to go with this.

[Archaeik]

Rogar Stonebow wrote:

Archaeik wrote:

The rules aren't 100% clear on these points, from what I can gather

Incorporeal Touch seems to be treated as a primary natural attack for most purposes, but it is not expressly a natural weapon, only an "armed attack".

This also means it should be considered incompatible with Magic Fang or Feral Combat Training, since both requires a natural weapon. (FoB already disallows combining it with natural attacks.)

Lastly, it's not that the creature's base damage die doesn't increase with size, only that the Supernatural ability that arms the incorporeal touch doesn't also increase. (And that delivering it through a touch attack doesn't deal base damage.)

Feral combat training was where I ultimately wanted to go with this.

Well, I have somewhat of a conceptual issue with assigning class levels to creatures like a shadow. It's not expressly disallowed anywhere, but the fluff for the Greater Shadow implies that it's the natural progression/end state for a normal shadow.

Also, even though it's contraindicated, if you do end up adding FCT, I'd treat all class levels of monk as key at that point for determining CR. (I'd enforce that base Int score of 6 too.)