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Just because two or three builds exist that, combined with very specific gear, can deal a massive amount of damage does not mean that the classes as a whole work. What if I don't want to play a tengu, tiefling, or "catgirl"? What if I don't want to dip into alchemist or druid? The system should work for just a default, vanilla fighter, without having to rely on special gear combinations that I won't even necessarily be able to find even if I want to be Captain America. If I want to be a scythe-wielding bringer of death, I should be able to do that with an ordinary fighter. That's what the fighter is supposed to be. As demonstrated by others, though, I'll be trapped in the role of subpar DPR machine pretty quickly thanks to summons, shapeshifting, and general caster madness.
Are there many feats that are as exciting as class abilities? I can only think of a few (Hellcat Stealth, Dazing Assault, ye olde Crane Wing...)
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Yeah, nobody has ever complained about the Fighter's ability to deal tons of damage with his weapon of choice. The problem the class has is that it's all he can do. If the problem can't be solved by the fighter swording it in the face, he's helpless.
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Here's a silly idea:
Why don't we give martials RP Things that would make sense for high level martials? Like fighters becoming a Lord of a stronghold at 9th level?
That seemed to be good enough for most back in 2E... wizards were powerful but were hopeless nerds that could never lead a nation.
Fighters: castle and bonus leadership
rogue: thief guild
ranger: forest
etc
ooooh yay big numbers, still not the point.I think I am speaking straight to the point. The OP is calling for rules variations that give martials nice things, and I'm saying that nice things are already there.
Then I proved it with extensive evidence.
Fear my big numbers!
big numbers isn't what they need, they need to counter or step up to magical capabilities without becoming faux magic.
Here's a silly idea:
Why don't we give martials RP Things that would make sense for high level martials? Like fighters becoming a Lord of a stronghold at 9th level?
That seemed to be good enough for most back in 2E... wizards were powerful but were hopeless nerds that could never lead a nation.
Fighters: castle and bonus leadership
rogue: thief guild
ranger: forest
etc
i did that in my thing i'm no longer advertising *wink wink*
It sounds like a nice idea, but I don't think it would really work in practice for many campaigns.
List them! Either here or PM me.
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You're missing the point, I think. A lot of people seem to.
You have shown that "melee emphasis" characters can do a lot of damage...but that's not what's being discussed as far as "nice things" goes.
Martials do plenty of damage, and can occasionally get some neat combat effects (Reach lockdowns with Trip and Combat Patrol, frex).
The main issue with those is that they require a lot more investment than the equivalent caster option.
The martial needs: Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Dodge, Mobility, Combat Reflexes, and Combat Patrol to get that sort of battlefield control.
The caster needs: Any ONE of a dozen spells (Black Tentacles, Pits, Walls, etc.) to get largely the same effect.
both are good, but the latter is far "cheaper".
The second issue is that martial cannot affect the game and narrative OUTSIDE of combat the same way casters can.
Martials don't have anything as game changing as Teleport, Create Demiplane, Scrying, and so on. Which is what people want.
I know I would gladly give up a lot of damage potential for a bit of narrative potential. It's why I like the Path of War classes so much. They don't get the huge to-hit/damage boosters most martials do, but they get some neat out of combat utility and cool stuff (like most of the Veiled Moon discipline) in return.
Nobody is disputing that martials are the absolute masters of "F@++ that guy in particular" with huge hit/damage numbers...but that's not what people mean when they say "nice things".
The Fighter can't be every possible type of martial you might want to be...
And yet the wizard can be every possible type of partymember he might want to be. ;P
scott, you're REALLY not getting the point. it;s nice the fighter can fight, but so can a wizard, and the wizard can do crazy stuff besides fighting.
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For out of combat for a fighter why not give them the ability:
War Stories: The fighter adds 1/2 his level to diplomacy and knowledge (local) when talking with any mundane military personal or peasants.
This could include city guards, locals, children as they could trade stories and gather intel. This would be basic nothing overly major but stories and rumors.
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They can sometimes.
Name three (non-Mythic).
Fair to say, that's rare. But mostly, I don't have a problem with that. Any PC might be clever enough to figure out how to arrange the magic stones on the altar to open or close the magic window or door, but mostly, scrying and demiplanes are magic things that can only be done by magic people. But I'm good with that.
And the crux of the problem here is that mages can do stuff martials can't, but the inverse isn't true.
I'm not saying martials need the exact SAME "nice things" as casters, but they need something similar in power, if not in function.
I don't need my Fighter to be able to scry or make something from nothing, but he needs to be able to do something that affects the game world on a real tangible level.
This:
The way I do that normally is roleplaying. And the way I would want to change the Fighter to be better at that is more Skills. I'll look through the thread for your ideas.
Doesn't address the issue. Your class doesn't change how much or how well you can roleplay. Roleplaying is fun, but RP alone doesn't affect the world in the same way.
Beefing up skills is a good start. Skills need to be able to do spectacular things.
Quick example, Acrobatics DCs to jump high are ludicrous. It takes a DC 20 check just to get 5 feet off the ground. Being able to reliably jump 30/40/50 feet in the air and walk on a literal razor's edge, or hop between the highest boughs of the trees where there's basically nothing but twigs and leaves to hold your weight...high level characters should be able to achieve these spectacular things.
High level Wizards are akin to real-world mythical figures and ancient gods in power, martials should be too.
But it's simply not possible with the current skills system.
Scott Wilhelm wrote:They can [teleport] sometimes.
Name three (non-Mythic).Abundant Step, Horizon Walker, Synthesist Summoner.
Dimension Door (not Teleport), Dimension Door (not Teleport), not a martial.
You really need to specify. That implied They can [teleport] is not what I got, since I said things as game-changing AS Teleport, for full martial characters, and then you said "They can".
Regardless of which, Dimension Door isn't nearly as game changing. It's powerful, and highly useful, but teleport (and especially Greater) invalidates entire plots.
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i did that in my thing i'm no longer advertising *wink wink*Here's a silly idea:
Why don't we give martials RP Things that would make sense for high level martials? Like fighters becoming a Lord of a stronghold at 9th level?
That seemed to be good enough for most back in 2E... wizards were powerful but were hopeless nerds that could never lead a nation.
Fighters: castle and bonus leadership
rogue: thief guild
ranger: forest
etc
PM me about that thing
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For out of combat for a fighter why not give them the ability:
War Stories: The fighter adds 1/2 his level to diplomacy and knowledge (local) when talking with any mundane military personal or peasants.
This could include city guards, locals, children as they could trade stories and gather intel. This would be basic nothing overly major but stories and rumors.
add knowledge nobility add i think it covers military tactics and ranks and add bluff as some stories are easily enhanced ;)
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Make Your Own Destiny: starting at level 9, a fighter can, once a year, make a world-changing speech that will rally the population behind him, regardless of charisma. For military purposes, the number of citizen rallied is equal to 2000 hit dice times the fighter level for a duration equal to 2 days per fighter level. At level 13: 3000 x ftr level hit dice and 2 weeks per level. At level 17: 5000 x ftr level hit dice and 1 month per level.
I was not aware of that. Where did you find that rule? I was just rereading the section on Multiclassing in the Core Rulebook, and this is all I found.
For example, let's say a 5th-level fighter decides to dabble in the arcane arts, and adds one level of wizard when he advances to 6th level.... He keeps all of his bonus feats gained from 5 levels of fighter, but can now also cast 1st-level spells... He adds all of the hit points, base attack bonuses, and saving throw bonuses from a 1st-level wizard on top of those gained from being a 5th-level fighter.
Yes, that is what the CRB says, and you're entirely correct in that what you're doing is completely rules-legal.
However, at first level (unlike any other level) you get a maxed-out hit die, (in 3.5) x4 skill points (which in PF became a +3 bonus to any skill you put a rank in the first (but only the first) time you took a level in a class in which that skill was a class skill). From this, some players (Bandw2 and myself, for instance) concluded that the initial bump of +2 to the good save(s) of a class is supposed to be the same sort of thing, a one-time bonus that's only supposed to apply once.
This is further supported by the PF prestige classes that do not give your good save(s) an additional +2 the first time you take a level in those PrCs. PrCs in 3.5, on the other hand, did. This is because the writers insisted on doing that math for the players rather than letting the players figure it out on their own. Leading to the unfortunate result of, say, a 6th level character (specifically, a Bard1/Cleric1/Druid1/Rogue1/Sorcerer1/Wizard1) having a BAB of +0.
Utterly ridiculous. 3.5's Unearthed Arcana helped by spelling out the math behind the scenes and letting multiclassed characters progress the way they're supposed to, if only the writers hadn't done the math ahead of time.
PF Unchained did us one better, in that it explicitly does what those of us looking at the math behind the scenes saw the whole time: acknowledges the initial +2 of a good save's progression as a one time thing (Unchained page 40).
(It occurs to me that the above may include some rambling, but I'm not inclined to go to the effort of making it more coherent.)
You're not doing it wrong, but Bandw2 has a point. He's simply using a logical extrapolation of RAI that ended up getting codified in Unchained.
Scott Wilhelm wrote:They can [teleport] sometimes.
Name three (non-Mythic).Abundant Step, Horizon Walker, Synthesist Summoner.Dimension Door (not Teleport), Dimension Door (not Teleport), not a martial.
You really need to specify. That implied They can [teleport] is not what I got, since I said things as game-changing AS Teleport, for full martial characters, and then you said "They can".
Regardless of which, Dimension Door isn't nearly as game changing. It's powerful, and highly useful, but teleport (and especially Greater) invalidates entire plots.
You got that with Teleport vs DimDor. I would call Synthesist Summoner a Martial Though.
Master Craftsman, Craft Wondrous Item, then make a pair of Boots of Teleportation.
Dude, the Synthesist Summoner is a 6th level caster, by definition not a martial. Do you think magi are martials?
Semi-Off Topic: What would people think of something like skill unlocks but based around letting martials do supernatural or epic things by using different weapon materials? Like... cutting the planes with an adamantine sword type stuff, and killing astral projections in one-hit by annihilating their silver cord.
I was not aware of that. Where did you find that rule? I was just rereading the section on Multiclassing in the Core Rulebook, and this is all I found.
For example, let's say a 5th-level fighter decides to dabble in the arcane arts, and adds one level of wizard when he advances to 6th level.... He keeps all of his bonus feats gained from 5 levels of fighter, but can now also cast 1st-level spells... He adds all of the hit points, base attack bonuses, and saving throw bonuses from a 1st-level wizard on top of those gained from being a 5th-level fighter.
it;s a house rule, using unchained, because it's clear that's what they intended(from posts and products they've released) but went with keeping it simple over keeping it balanced(which is a completely fine choice, not criticizing anyone who doesn't do what i do) since it doesn't matter.
here's a pic of the rules, they;re pretty straight forward, and help with multiclassing in every instance other than saves.
Martials: Characters who take classes which obtain spells of no higher than 4th level.
pretty much this, i'd even go so far and say paladins and their ilk are only half-martials.
Semi-Off Topic: What would people think of something like skill unlocks but based around letting martials do supernatural or epic things by using different weapon materials? Like... cutting the planes with an adamantine sword type stuff, and killing astral projections in one-hit by annihilating their silver cord.
if they made more mundane, alchemical, or forging typed things that'd be great. playing the witcher 3, oils and the like or forging special weapons.
Semi-Off Topic: What would people think of something like skill unlocks but based around letting martials do supernatural or epic things by using different weapon materials? Like... cutting the planes with an adamantine sword type stuff, and killing astral projections in one-hit by annihilating their silver cord.if they made more mundane, alchemical, or forging typed things that'd be great. playing the witcher 3, oils and the like or forging special weapons.
Unchained Crafting rules + Material Unlocks + Investigator?
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Scott, considering the fact that Oracles and Clerics are martials under your definition it isn't a very useful definition of the word "martial".
I sometimes doubt whether or not any of the "Martials < Casters" people actually play the game.
More than seven years of D&D and Pathfinder gaming under my belt, and I have seen enough of it to know it true. It becomes especially apparent the higher the level of the player characters.
Ah yes, every wizard sits in envy as that optimized superstitious barbarian pounces while evading fireballs. Then he remembers that he can just drop 1d3+2 succubi, or, you know, something seriously impactful and take a dump on those that Barbarian. In one full round. Then do it again.
I have designed and played in a party of all witches. d6 HD, one good save withes. And, you know what? Once we hit about level . . . I don't know, 3? It became apparent that they could destroy anything CR appropriate simply through the creative combination of class abilities and spells with minimal teamwork.
I have also designed and played in a party of all halfling martials. We tried hard. We used stealth and diplomacy, careful dungeoneering, and all around just tried to play the game right. And it was /hard/. Really hard. It was flavorful and fun, but it was also a struggle regardless of how effective our tactics were because the game was not designed with a 'rounded party' being necessary, or even effective after a certain point.
And it makes sense. Magic defeats reality, sort of by definition. But it's clear that casters wipe the floor with martials throughout almost every step of the game, unless the casters and trying very hard to fail and the martials are optimizing every step of the way, and even then.
I just want my fighter to have a self-heal, that's all ;_;
Adding fast heal and making NO other changes would, in my opinion, nearly solve the disparity issue.
My approach has been to abandon Fighter altogether, I will never play one again.
Hunter.
I just focus on making my animal buddy as awesome as possible, Spirit's Gift can grant it fast heal, so... Yeah.
As for 'fixing' the martial classes (I'm gonna call everyone who doesn't have spells martial):
Add Rogue class as per gestalt rules, remove Rogue class from game.
Add ability to full attack AND move as per Mythic rules... (forget name of ability-Swift Attack? Fleet Footed?)
IMPORTANT: Grant Fast Heal! Whether it scales or not, if martial types can self heal, it a)lets casters focus on blasting/summoning/non-healing stuff and b)makes martials more independant.
I think the ability to self heal is the most important thing to consider if you want to bring martials up to a level that casters have always had...
scott, you're REALLY not getting the point. it;s nice the fighter can fight, but so can a wizard, and the wizard can do crazy stuff besides fighting.
That is wise. My powergamer buddy gets insane saves by multiclassing, because really, what game reaches level 20 and continues to play?
Capstone abilities for a class are a joke.
Martials: Characters who take classes which obtain spells of no higher than 4th level.
I go even farther and say non-casters.
As for archetypes, irrelevant. Look at base class. Paladins and Rangers are casters. Taking an archetype may remove it, but the base class has it.
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Make Your Own Destiny: starting at level 9, a fighter can, once a year, make a world-changing speech that will rally the population behind him, regardless of charisma. For military purposes, the number of citizen rallied is equal to 2000 hit dice times the fighter level for a duration equal to 2 days per fighter level. At level 13: 3000 x ftr level hit dice and 2 weeks per level. At level 17: 5000 x ftr level hit dice and 1 month per level.
Seeing the lack of response, I'm guessing the game has irrevocably moved from overall agents of change within a larger campaign setting towards a game of numbers aimed at increasing the power of a single being? :)
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Question: if casters are so great, why oh why do the majority of tables seem to have a problem filling the full arcane and full divine caster roles? Maybe I'm biased because I've been playing with the same group for a while now, but I remember that people use to pick wizards and clerics way more often before PRPG came out. Wait... could it be...... that.... [gasp!] PRPG has actually really improved martials and kinda kept wizards and clerics the same? (don't make me laugh and evoke the concept of school or domain powers here...)
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Also, DPR means shit. I recently really messed up one of my GM's most DPR effective bad guy by simply disarming him. Improved Disarm: one feat. Taken at level 6 as part of a ranger's combat style. That's it.
If your campaign is centered around constantly fighting kaijus with claws and bite sure, go two-handed barbarian and focus everything on damage... or invest in a character with a good dominate monster DC. However if your campaign is somewhat balanced go for a balanced character that has other tricks than "doing damage", and see your appreciation for this game greatly enhanced.