Persistent Metamagic and rerolls

[erik542]

Suppose I cast a spell with persistent spell applied to it against someone who has a reroll feat such as improved lightning reflexes. How does this get resolved?

[Avatar-1]

The bad guy gets a reroll on one (but not both) of the failed saves.

If they fail both rolls on the persistent effect, they fail regardless.

[Chess Pwn]

he rolls twice on the reroll as well

[Maezer]

Technically you don't roll twice on the reroll. Step by step its something like this:

1: Make saving throw.
2: Before knowing the results (Comparing the die roll + save bonus to the spell DC) you must decide if you wish to reroll.
3: Then compare results to spell DC.
If you fail you suffer the effect of the spell.
If you succeed you must repeat the saving throw process one addition time.
If you expended your 1/day use of Improved Lightning Reflexs its gone and cannot be used again on the second saving throw.

[Pizza Lord]

Reading Persistent Spell and its wording seems to support Maezer's answer. In this case, it appears the 2nd saving throw is a separate occurence from the first (though carrying the same results if failed).

This means that a bonus from guidance would only apply to one and not the other if used. So, while the bonus might help pass the 1st save, passing triggers a 2nd saving throw which would not receive the bonus.

This would be different from an ability that caused the target to roll a saving throw twice and take the worse result or being forced to re-roll the saving throw, which would use the original modifiers as well.

[erik542]

Something that bothers me about Maezer's response is that Persistent Spell does not state that it only applies to one roll.
It reads as:
Roll save
Did you pass?
Reroll save
Did you pass?
Reroll save
...

This problem is averted if you take the roll twice and take worse result interpretation.

[Maezer]

It probably could have been worded better, Or differently. And in practice, most people I see dealing with persistent metamagic do just roll twice and take the lower. It would be simplier, cleaner, and more in line with other similiar effects. And would generate very similiar results. But I believe my interpretation is More representitive of how it Works, for better or worse, as actually written.

[Hogeyhead]

At higher levels you can be a real meanie (paizo censors anything stronger) with persistent and ill omen (ill omen is not that hard to get on your list if you want it, but you gotta want it).

let's say you are level 15, alrighty ill omen works 4 times per casting.

turn1: swift: quickened ill omen (no save, possible spell resist)
standard: persistent phantasmal killer

Monster "will save1 18, 16 on the dice that was a close one."
Caster "Okay roll twice again to see if you actually succeed."
Monster "Really?"
Caster "Yup."
Monster "Okay 13, and 4 so the lowest is 17 I don't suppose that is a success?"
Caster "DC 23, so no. Roll fort."
Monster"Well good rolls again 18 and 15 lowest is 24"
Caster "Roll twice again."
Monter "Jesus. 10 and 16, lowest is 19."
Caster "You were pretty lucky, but not lucky enough have fun bein eaten to death by tiny wiener dogs"
Monster"Nooooo, how did they even get to me I'm flying, I'm Flying! Ghaaah. -dead-"
Caster"Catchy one liner" -puts on sunglasses (which somehow exsist despite the setting)
Chorus "Yeeeeeeeeah!!!"