And once again, the AoO from moving is separate from entering the square, which is why you would trigger twice if you entered using normal movement.
You have not one ounce of proof that this is the case. That the AoO from moving is separate from the one from entering a square.
And one more thing. All talk of entering a square provoking is in the Combat chapter. This chapter has a list of what actions provoke. Move is an action that provokes. Entering a square isn't even listed. It's not listed because it's just a move.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/combat.html#table-8-2-actions-in-combat
When would entering a square provoke when you wouldn't provoke just for leaving a threatened square?
Can you clarify what you mean here. If you are saying that the AoO for entering an occupied square is the same as the AoO for leaving a threatened square then, yes. This is because it is an AoO generated from "move" as defined in the combat chapter.
In short, why is the rule about occupied squares even there? It seems utterly superfluous 99.9% of the time. Did the devs really waste print putting that rule in to cover bizarre cases like teleportation or something without even indicating that it would almost never matter?
It's reminder text. The rules are full of it.
You have not one ounce of proof that this is the case. That the AoO from moving is separate from the one from entering a square.
The fact that a tiny creature with reach 0 can't AoO anyone circling around it in it's adjacent squares, but it is allowed to AoO someone trying to occupy it's square is proof enough for me, since if indeed the AoO for moving were the same one for entering the occupyied square, it would be impossible for the tiny creature to interrupt it with reach 0, before the creature had entered it's square.
The AoO for entering a square of a tiny creature happens already inside that square, so if it happens to kill the invading creature, it would fall dead inside the tiny creature's square, and not on the adjacent square it came from, like it would have happend from an AoO for leaving a threatened square agains a creature with reach 5 or greater.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The fact that a tiny creature with reach 0 can't AoO anyone circling around it in it's adjacent squares, but it is allowed to AoO someone trying to occupy it's square is proof enough for me,
That seems a might circular. How do you know something with no reach can make an aoo against something trying to occupy its square?
Normally it would go
Creature attempts to enter the square
Creature draws aoo while its still in its own square
Tiny creature with no reach cannot make an AOO
Creature enters square.
The same thing happens if an ogre attempts to grapple a fighter without a reach weapon. You need a readied action and a high level fighter feat (strike back) to thwack their hand.
A tiny creature can enter a medium creature's square, but a medium creature is not allowed to enter a tiny creature's square.
(Tiny and smaller creatures get special rules when they move. Other creatures must be at least 3 size categories different to pull the same trick.)
Odd, hunh?
True. I should have said a Large creature, and also in the exemple of a small creature entering a bear's square, I should have said a Huge creature, but I was looking for a larger creature with a reach of only 5 feet, so both AoO would happen at the same time.
As you said, odd. I assumed that if a Tiny creature can freely enter a medium creature's square then the reverse would be possible too.
Teleporting into an opponents square provokes, yes. You're still entering the square. However, because AOO's are treated as occurring just before the action that provokes it (see: tripping with your AOO to trip someone getting up and why it doesn't work) you'd have to threaten the square they're teleporting from.Hmn, while I understand your reasoning, I believe the AoO for entering a creature's square happens after the movement. Otherwise, a tiny creature would be unable to reach and attack a creature entering its square. With that in mind, if you teleport into a creature's square, the AoO should also happen after the change in location takes place and thus would also trigger an AoO which could realistically be taken advantage of.
Well, I wouldn't say the AoO happens after the movement, I believe it's more like during, after the provoking movement has started but before it's concluded, so it can be interrupted.
But you've pointed out something interresting, even with teleport you would provoke an AoO for entering a occupied square, but since the teleporting creature is probably out of reach before the teleport is concluded, the "defending" creature just can't take the AoO, even if it's entitle to.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Hmn, while I understand your reasoning, I believe the AoO for entering a creature's square happens after the movement. Otherwise, a tiny creature would be unable to reach and attack a creature entering its square
If you need to change the order that Aoos happen in according to your working model its a good indication that the working model is wrong.
Barbarian's Unexpected Strike has similar issues since it grants an AoO for entering. The intent there is almost definitely that the AoO happens after they enter the threatened space, I find it likely RAI is the same here.Hmn, while I understand your reasoning, I believe the AoO for entering a creature's square happens after the movement. Otherwise, a tiny creature would be unable to reach and attack a creature entering its squareIf you need to change the order that Aoos happen in according to your working model its a good indication that the working model is wrong.
But you're not talking about a special ability, which by their nature break the normal rules. You're talking about the normal rules themselves.
Tiny creatures can have reach (teeny tiny pole arms. Lunge. Natural reach like pseudo dragons)
Nor is every creature that can have their square entered without reach: a very large opponent can enter a small or bigger opponents square.
The language is nearly identical, I'd expect them to work the same. I find it to be mental gymnastics to distinguish between mechanics language based on the source of the rule.But you're not talking about a special ability, which by their nature break the normal rules. You're talking about the normal rules themselves.
Tiny creatures can have reach (teeny tiny pole arms. Lunge. Natural reach like pseudo dragons)
Nor is every creature that can have their square entered without reach: a very large opponent can enter a small or bigger opponents square.
Absolutely not. The entire purpose of feats is to alter the way things normally work. Using them as the way things normally work runs contrary to their entire purpose.
And no, I don't see anything in the barbarian ability that would alter how AoOs work either. So you're using a supposition to back a supposition.
So, in your mind a creature with a reach 0 does NOT get an AoO when someone enters their square. Is that right?
No, that isn't right. The creature would in fact not get the AOO. The attack occurs directly before the provoking action. This is written in the FAQ if you'd like to look it up.
So, in your mind a creature with a reach 0 does NOT get an AoO when someone enters their square. Is that right?No, that isn't right. The creature would in fact not get the AOO. The attack occurs directly before the provoking action. This is written in the FAQ if you'd like to look it up.
If a creature is 15' away from me, and I have a reach weapon, and it moves adjacent to me, do I not get an AoO because it was 15' away when it started its move - the action which provoked?
Movement and AoO's sometimes needs to be adjudicated differently. And even though the rules don't tell us to run them differently, we understand that that is actually how it works.
So, in your mind a creature with a reach 0 does NOT get an AoO when someone enters their square. Is that right?No, that isn't right. The creature would in fact not get the AOO. The attack occurs directly before the provoking action. This is written in the FAQ if you'd like to look it up.Why do you say "No, that isn't right", and then repeat exactly what I said?
Me: "a creature with a reach 0 does NOT get an AoO when someone enters their square"
You: "The creature would in fact not get the AOO."
Aren't these saying exactly the same thing?
You misunderstand. You said in my mind that would be the case. This is incorrect. It is not just the case in my mind, it is the case in fact.
I had assumed putting some sort of emphasis on the in fact was not necessary. I was mistaken.
That isn't at all incorrect, it is in fact exactly true. That is what you think, which is what I stated. In no way is your statement "No, that isn't right" a correct statement.
However, I'll ask once more, can you explain why the entry AoO even exists? Why did they decide to write the rule into the rulebooks when the AoO from leaving a threatened square will almost always, if not always apply.
Based on what you think, this rule is utterly useless and redundant.
That doesn't mean, necessarily, that what you think is wrong, but it's enough of a flag that should make really anyone reconsider their particular assumptions.
Go look up scalar implicature, you will see why you are wrong about in mind versus in fact.
As for why, it doesn't matter. The only corner case I can think of is teleporting, but that is entirely irrelevant. The rules say what they say, if they are redundant in this case, so be it. That does not change their text.
I've made no assumptions, everything I've stated is backed up by RAW. Your argument has no evidence to back it up, and is in fact based on assumptions about what a rule was meant to do. You have presented no other evidence for your argument other than that the other side does not make sense to you. This is irrelevant. Your argument is wrong.
Lol, yes, the ol' "Go look up X" deflection.
Did you think X? Yes.
Did I say you thought X? Yes.
Anything beyond the above is your assumptions and extrapolations.
Teleporting probably doesn't even work because you can't teleport to a square that is occupied by a solid body. Furthermore, since you insist that an AoO must take place before the actual triggering event, they would have to take the AoO before the spell was cast and the person teleported to the square, no?
So, no, there are no cases that I can find where you would trigger an entry AoO and not a leave threatened square AoO according to your interpretation.
And it isn't 'irrelevant', it has been stated by the devs on more than one occasion that it is to be assumed that the rules 'work' and having meaning. If, by your interpretation, the entry AoO has no actual useful purpose, then there are three options:
1) The devs follow your rules interpretation and included a useless rule for no good reason
2) The devs don't know their own rules and included a useless rule because they thought it actually did something
3) You're wrong
Now, 1 seems rather insulting to me, and not characteristic of what we know about the development team 2 is unlikely but it has been known to happen on very rare occasions. However, what it usually boils down, 9 times out of 10, or 99 times out of 100, is 3.
I asked you to look it up so you might better understand why you're wrong. Whether or not you do so is irrelevant, and doesn't really change the fact that you're wrong. Conversational and logical nuance is not really within the purview of this discussion.
You can teleport short distances. You can even teleport 1 square, from a threatened square to an opponents square.
Tiny creatures are allowed to teleport into occupied square.
Regardless, that does not matter in the slightest.
There have certainly been rules that don't do anything. See the original prone shooter feat for an example. It does not matter for what reason the rule is written in a way that it does nothing, it matters that it was.
I insist the AOO takes place before the triggering event because the devs themselves have stated as such.
Trip: When a prone character stands up and provokes an attack of opportunity, can I use that attack to trip the character again?
No. The attack of opportunity is triggered before the action that triggered it is resolved...
Please familiarize yourself with the rules before becoming involved in rules debates. This is why proof is asked for. Your argument boils down to an appeal to authority fallacy. Your argument is wrong.
Very Small Creature
A Fine, Diminutive, or Tiny creature can move into or through an occupied square. The creature provokes attacks of opportunity when doing so.
Hey guys! I think some of you are wrong, and I'm going to explain why I think so. Please don't take it personally.
I believe that the AoO from moving into an occupied square is just an AoO as normal from movement. I believe there to be an understood "as normal" in that sentence, such that it reads: The creature provokes attacks of opportunity as normal when doing so.
You're reading too far into the rules. I think that your logic would lead to gunslingers using Gunslinger's Dodge provoking twice as well.
I recall that the community found several instances of superfluous wording and inconsistent wording in the core rulebook before, and the dev response was generally, "Yeah, but the rules weren't written by a robot."
I think that if you take a very literal interpretation of the rules, you're correct. But I really doubt that was what the author intended when that sentence was written. Why wasn't it revisited ever? Because it's not a rule that comes into play very often. Same reason other core rulebook rules have had to have FAQs and errata.
Yeah, nice attitude. You just repeated everything I already alluded to.
That why I said #2 is unlikely but possible.
However, 99 times out of 100, #3 is the correct choice.
You alluded to AOOs occurring before the provoking action being false. I showed you this was incorrect. I insisted on it because it is RAW. There is a reason you had no actual counterpoint.
I also stated you are making an appeal to authority fallacy. Based on all available rules, this is how it works. You can have as much misplaced faith as you like, but the text on the page doesn't change.
If your argument boills down to "I have faith the writers knew what they were doing, therefore I have to be correct", then you could not have made my point better. I thank you for your contribution. As the writers have been shown to make mistakes on numerous occasions, we can judge this case based on its own merits, and not rely on an appeal to authority fallacy.
It's the equivalent of a mathematician writing 2+2=5, and someone coming along to defend him by saying they are right so often they must know what they're doing. This is wrong. Your point is wrong.
Yeah, and that's my point. If a too literal reading of the rules comes up with nonsense, you refer to the devs: "Yeah, but the rules weren't written by a robot" to understand that those rules still have to mean something useful.
The core rules intend that you provoke an AoO when you enter an enemy's square, that's literally what the rules say:
They must enter an opponent's square to attack in melee. This provokes an attack of opportunity from the opponent.The rule is quite clearly written, and the only way that this rule makes any sort of sense is if it is not considered a normal movement AoO.
Edited to add:
Contrast this with the rule that follows the above:
Large, Huge, Gargantuan, and Colossal Creatures
A creature with greater than normal natural reach usually gets an attack of opportunity against you if you approach it, because you must enter and move within the range of its reach before you can attack it. This attack of opportunity is not provoked if you take a 5-foot step.A pretty dramatic difference.
RAI is always the refuge of those on the losing side of a debate.
The intention could just as easily be reminder text about leaving a threatened square. The intention is irrelevant. The rules on the page are what matter. You are welcome to houserule it. Your point is wrong.
I believe that the AoO from moving into an occupied square is just an AoO as normal from movement. I believe there to be an understood "as normal" in that sentence, such that it reads: The creature provokes attacks of opportunity as normal when doing so.
Well, it is indeed good to remember that doesn't matter how many move actions you make in a round, you can only be AoOed for movement once por round.
I believe that the AoO from moving into an occupied square is just an AoO as normal from movement. I believe there to be an understood "as normal" in that sentence, such that it reads: The creature provokes attacks of opportunity as normal when doing so.Well, it is indeed good to remember that doesn't matter how many move actions you make in a round, you can only be AoOed for movement once por round.
Which is one of the questions raised here. Is entering a creatures square a movement thing or is it something else?
I believe that the AoO from moving into an occupied square is just an AoO as normal from movement. I believe there to be an understood "as normal" in that sentence, such that it reads: The creature provokes attacks of opportunity as normal when doing so.Well, it is indeed good to remember that doesn't matter how many move actions you make in a round, you can only be AoOed for movement once por round.
To be more precise, you only provoke once, per attacker, per moving out of any number of threatened square. It is not only provoking once per movement.
You can move 100 squares and provoke from each and every square you leave if your enemies are lined up correctly.
They must enter an opponent's square to attack in melee. This provokes an attack of opportunity from the opponent.The rule is quite clearly written, and the only way that this rule makes any sort of sense is if it is not considered a normal movement AoO.
The only way it makes any sort of sense if it's a badly phrased reminder that this type of movement normally provokes from creatures with normal reach.
If it's a rule, it's a stupid one that adds nothing to the game under any circumstances I can think of. Would the intended purpose be to give enemies with combat reflexes two AoOs for one move? To ambiguously prevent you from taking advantage of five-foot steps to avoid AoO? To ambiguously prevent you from using Acrobatics? To ensure that a creature with 0-foot reach gets an AoO when another such creature approaches it? How would any of those contribute to realism, game balance or fun?
So, in your mind a creature with a reach 0 does NOT get an AoO when someone enters their square. Is that right?
AoOs always come before the triggering event. So the AoO for entering the square comes before they do actually enter the square. So yes, as long as they don't have reach they cant make an AoO.
Or better they get the AoO but can't use it.Had they an adjacent friend with paired opportunists the friend could make the AoO.
As pointed by DM Blake, this was posted Here. It's from D&D 3.5 Rules of the Game: AoO (P2) by Skip Williams:
If you're a whole lot bigger or smaller than your foe, you can move through and even stop in the foe's space (see Player's Handbook page 148); you also can do so if you're size Fine, Diminutive, or Small. Entering a foe's space normally provokes an attack of opportunity from that foe, but if you use the Tumble skill to enter the space, you don't provoke an attack of opportunity from the foe if you make your skill check.
This clarifies that, at lest in D&D 3.5, the AoO from moving into an enemy's square is just a regular AoO for leaving a thretened square, and as such can be tumbled and only happens if the enemy has enough reach.
Also, more on the subject from Skip Williams here,"Kobold Press: Size Matters":
The rules say a Tiny creature can move into or through a Medium creature’s space. Can it end its movement in that space? Can the Medium creature do anything about it?
A Tiny creature can indeed move into or through a square another creature occupies, friend or foe. The other creature doesn’t have to be Medium size — a Tiny, Diminutive, or Fine creature can enter any occupied space. When the little creature enters a space that a foe of Medium size occupies, the gets an attack of opportunity when the Tiny creature leaves the adjacent square to enter the Medium creature’s space, thanks to its 5-foot reach.The rules don’t actually come out and say that a Tiny creature can end its movement in another creature’s space (though you can argue about what “into or through” means in this context). If you think about it, however, they must be able to stop in occupied squares or they’d never be able to use their 0 reach to make a melee attack (sans a feat that might allow them to fight on the move)
Okay, what about creatures of different sizes? If you’re three sizes bigger, or three sizes smaller than another creature, you can move through its space. Can you also stop in that space?
You cannot stop in another creature’s space unless that creature is helpless—or if you’re size Tiny, Diminutive, or Fine.
I still don't get why a Tiny creature can move and stay inside the square of a Large creature but apparantly a Large creature can't move and stay over a Tiny creature's square, or a Colossal creature can't move and stay over a Medium creature's square, but I'll guess it must have some mechanical gamebalance reason.
Unfortunally, Skip Williams didn't mention anything about a 5 foot step into an enemy occupied square, but since it seems this is just like any other regular movement, apparantly a Tiny creature an just take a 5 foot step into any square they want and not provoke AoO from this movement.
Personally, I still think the best way to handle these Tiny creature is to pretend they are medium size grow everything else proportionally. This would make a Medium creaure become a Huge creature, and the 5 foot step that Medium creature would take now becomes a 1.25 step, proportionally speaking.
In the end, the rules just don't support Tiny creatures and moving and fighting into other creatures squares perfectly, so either way it's ruled, regular movement or not, it will lead to some inappropriate situations.
To make this really work, officially, it will need some revisions.
If a Tiny creature that starts it's turn adjacent to a medium creature, and makes a normal move into the medium creature's space, this provokes twice. Once for leaving a threatened square and once for entering an occupied square. These are not the same triggers. If the tiny creature 5ft steps, and does in fact avoid both AoOs, isn't this the only place in the rules where one action can avoid 2 AoOs? I mean, whether or not that's RAW or RAI, isn't that the only time that could happen?
If a Tiny creature that starts it's turn adjacent to a medium creature, and makes a normal move into the medium creature's space, this provokes twice. Once for leaving a threatened square and once for entering an occupied square. These are not the same triggers. If the tiny creature 5ft steps, and does in fact avoid both AoOs, isn't this the only place in the rules where one action can avoid 2 AoOs? I mean, whether or not that's RAW or RAI, isn't that the only time that could happen?
Thats a mite circular. Its not known if entering the square is a separate provocation from movement or not, thats the issue at hand. You can't decide that the answer is yes, then use the yes answer to say that the no answer would do too much.
And no. If i 5 foot step away or towards from 6 pole arm fighters I'm avoiding 6 aoos.
Thats a mite circular. Its not known if entering the square is a separate provocation from movement or not, thats the issue at hand. You can't decide that the answer is yes, then use the yes answer to say that the no answer would do too much.
And no. If i 5 foot step away or towards from 6 pole arm fighters I'm avoiding 6 aoos.
I thought the question was whether the AoO from entering an occupied square is prevented by a 5ft step. With a corollary of is the AoO from the movement or actually being in the square? With the assumption that a tiny creature CAN 5ft step into an occupied square.
Leaving a threatened square is different from entering an occupied square. If the tiny creature flew in a circle around the medium creature, it would provoke for leaving the first threatened square. If it then entered the square on the same turn, it would provoke separately. That's unambiguous.
Thanks for the answer. I can't believe I didn't think of that.
I thought the question was whether the AoO from entering an occupied square is prevented by a 5ft step. With a corollary of is the AoO from the movement or actually being in the square? With the assumption that a tiny creature CAN 5ft step into an occupied square.
There's no doubt that the tiny creature can step into the space.
Very Small Creature: A Fine, Diminutive, or Tiny creature can move into or through an occupied square. The creature provokes attacks of opportunity when doing so.
Leaving a threatened square is different from entering an occupied square.
Thats the question. The above seems to treat them interchangeably and assume that your movement will provoke.
If the tiny creature flew in a circle around the medium creature, it would provoke for leaving the first threatened square. If it then entered the square on the same turn, it would provoke separately. That's unambiguous.
Which is multiple squares though. A 5 foot step is by definition only leaving 1 square.
Thanks for the answer. I can't believe I didn't think of that.
I am a blunt instrument. Simple solutions for complex problems. :)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Which is multiple squares though. A 5 foot step is by definition only leaving 1 square.
Right, I wasn't making a judgement on the 5ft step, I was more asking as an aside. As I said in my first post
If a Tiny creature ... makes a normal move into the medium creature's space
As to the topic on hand, I don't really have any insight to add, I'm sorta torn on the whole thing. I don't think there's a compelling RAW reason to rule that they can't step in just fine, but that just don't like the idea of not getting an AoO when something actually enters my square. Color me undecided.
Oh and if I wanted to be a jerk, I could make the argument that the rules only say they can move into occupied space, not that they could 5ft step, and if the rules don't say you can do something, you can't, otherwise I'll just make up a feat on the spot that all tiny creatures who enter my square immediately die because reasons. But that's not a great argument, and I'm not a jerk.