Ritual Puzzle


Advice


Hey folks, me again

So my party managed to talk its way out of trouble and everyone had a blast. Now they're planning on assaulting a BBEG's lair and killing him to escape Hell. In an effort to keep things interesting I'm plotting combats, tactical choices for their allies, puzzles, and hopefully some talking encounters.

One of my players had the idea to use Vision, Augury, Commune, Contact other plane, etc... to scope out the BBEG and I loved it. I decided to play to that and give them the instructions/clues to an upcoming puzzle in the jumble of cryptic information divination gives. They're warned of the enemy likely completing a ritual to summon a fiendish behemoth, yet if they can undo the ritual before it shows up it will get sent away.

So my question/advice seeking is can anyone solve this puzzle or are my players gonna end up frustrated? I will post my answer/process in a spoiler tag in the next post. Keep in mind its a hard puzzle as it essentially negates a really hard fight if they manage it.

The ritual takes the form of a pentagram. At the top of the star and continuing clockwise at each point are the numbers 53, 101, 223, 271, and 317. They may change numbers simply by erasing them and writing new ones, but only one combination will counteract the ritual.

Their cryptic clues are;

''26, 52, 78, 104, 130, 156, 182 ''

''B, C, E, G, K, M, Q, S, W, and more symbols in an chaotic loop...''

''These warriors of zenith stand unbreakable save for themselves and a single foe, ever on marching they will go.''

''By ritual of the characters the beast Awoke, yet the ritual again Cages him.''

The first of Asmodeus is always on high, yet none that follow may be lower than he.

Let me know what you all think, thank you so much!


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Solution and explanation:

The numbers 53, 101, 223, 271, and 317 spell out AWOKE in prime numbers if you loop the alphabet (A being 1, 27, 53 etc...). We don't use 1 as its technically not a prime number, so the first time A appears is at 53. The numbers that follow 53 are the first time W, O, K, and E would appear in sequential order.

They need to change the numbers to 53, 59, 83, 97, and 107 with 53 at the top and going clockwise. While this spells AGESC reading from the top, it spells CAGES if read clockwise. Why is this correct?

It is correct because of the clue/instruction stating; ''The first of Asmodeus is always on high, yet none that follow may be lower than he.'' the first of Asmodeus refers to the letter A, and any letter following must be represented by a prime number higher than A [53].

In explanation of the other clues, the sequence of numbers ''26, 52, 78... etc'' is a hint about the repetition of the alphabet while the sequence ''B, C, E, G, K, M, Q, S, W" is a hint containing letters represented by each prime before the first repetition of the alphabet [W = 23, while the next prime 29 begins to loop again].

''By ritual of the characters the beast Awoke, yet the ritual again Cages him.'' is meant to give them the key words, with awoke and cages being spell-able using the above cipher and the last 5-letter word in their respective parts of the sentence.

Finally the biggest/easiest clue in my opinion is; ''These warriors of zenith stand unbreakable save for themselves and a single foe, ever on marching they will go.'' Which references Prime Numbers with Zenith being a synonym for Prime and primes being divisible only by themselves of 1.

So... make sense? Is it too hard? Too easy?


I did not read the spoiler, but based on the clues, I'd guess:

Guess:
55, 79, 111, 135, 175

Which should spell CAGES.

Edit: Obviously, I was wrong. I picked up that it was increasingly higher numbers, but absolutely not that it had to be out of order and Prime. I started at 55 because the original started with the third repetition of the alphabet.

That zenith clue is NOT easy at all. In no language that I am familiar with is Zenith a synonym for Prime. The Zenith is the top of something--usually in terms of celestial bodies or mountains or something. IT has nothing to do with Prime numbers.

So, this was half awesome and half WTF? I now see how you might put the A at the top if I took the "first of Asmodeus" literally (I just thought it meant each number had to be higher than the last), but yeah, the fact that Awoke starts with A really throws you off into not thinking about that too hard. The prime thing, though, jeez, I doubt I'd ever get that.


I didn't figure out this puzzle, but I think it's pretty good. My main problem was that I never made the connection that the clues were referring to prime numbers.

I saw that the first clue was a linear sequence of 26, and I knew that there were 26 letters in the alphabet.

Instead of recognizing the 2nd clue was counting out primes of the alphabet, I just tried to measure the numbers between each letter. 1, 2, 2, 4, 2, 4, 2, 4. So I thought the next letter in the sequence must be 2 letters after W, Y. The number in the alphabet for that is 25.

26 - 25 is 1. On a hunch, I subtracted 1 from the five numbers in the pentagram. 52, 100, 222, 270, 316. 52 is double the number of letters in the alphabet, or 200%. 100 is a whole, 100%. 222 is a third of 666, the number of the beast, 33%. 270 is three quarters of 360, a complete circle, 75%. 316 refers to the bible passage John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." Eternal = infinity.

For clue 3, I have never heard of the term "Zenith" being a synonym for prime numbers in my life. I even did a quick google search and did not find any strong relation between the word zenith and prime numbers. It might not be as obvious and easy of a clue as you think. A zenith is a peak, like the sun at high noon, so I thought it was referring to the top point of the star. "Ever marching they will go = infinity. So I put 317 at the top of the star.

The fourth clue, I thought referred to the number 223, since 223 - 1 is 222, a third of the number of the beast. So I figured that 223 should go in the fourth point of the star clockwise from the top.

I got the hint about the letter A in Asmodeus being the first, and even figured it was referring to the number 1, but still didn't make the connection to prime numbers. I thought it referred to 101, since 101 - 1 = 100, and it's the only number in the star that starts with a 1. I took "none that follow may be lower" to mean that the other numbers couldn't be lower on the star. So I decided to put 101 on one of the two lower points. By process of elimination, that's the 3rd from the top, since the 4th is already occupied by 223.

So now I had the right and left upper points of the star unoccupied, and the numbers 57 and 271 remaining. I couldn't figure out how to assign em based on my previous deductions.

TL;DR, I tried thinking with symbolism and arithmetic rather than catching the clues about prime numbers. I really don't understand how "zenith" is a strong clue. But good job on the riddle, a lot of it was very clever. Hopefully my rambling thought process was useful to you.


Thanks both of you for testing that. Hmmm... I will reword the Zenith clue. It was meant as Zenith is the top, the apex, and prime can mean the best, the top, the apex. I think I look at a better word for prime then.

As for the First of Asmodeus, maybe I'll change the first word to Wakes, putting the A at the top again this time to better help them guess Cages needs to be skewed.

Thanks both again, I'll go think about it more.


The puzzle was too hard for me. This is how I interpreted the clues.

Spoiler:

''26, 52, 78, 104, 130, 156, 182 ''
I saw that the numbers were increasing by 26 each time so I guessed that meant there was a link between the numbers and the letters.

''B, C, E, G, K, M, Q, S, W, and more symbols in an chaotic loop...''
Following from the first clue I realised the numbers for these letters are 2,3,5,7,11 etc. which are prime numbers.

''These warriors of zenith stand unbreakable save for themselves and a single foe, ever on marching they will go.''
I didn't understand the zenith part, but the rest of the clue seemed to imply prime numbers (that is numbers that are indivisible and continuing on to infinity).

''By ritual of the characters the beast Awoke, yet the ritual again Cages him.''
I noticed that "Awoke" and "Cages" each started with a capital letter, so they were obviously significant, but I didn't draw any relationship between these letters and the numbers on the pentagram. For me the numbers on the pentagram at the start appeared to be too large to match to either "Awoke" or "Cages".

The first of Asmodeus is always on high, yet none that follow may be lower than he.
I guessed the solution started with an "A" which I assumed would be a 1 not a 53, I also concluded that this mean that the pentagram was up the right way rather than inverted, my previous assumption was that it would be inverted since they are trapped in hell.

I found that having the numbers cycle all the way through for "A" is too confusing, especially when there doesn't seem to be any other clues that refer to cycles.


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Here's an alternative riddle;

These supreme warriors stand unbreakable save for themselves and a single foe, ever on marching they will go. The first is an even fellow it’s been said, but the rest of them are surely odd in the head.

Is that better?


No, because:

1) It is debatable whether 1 or 2 is the first prime number

2) It just sounds clunky and silly. The phrase "unbreakable save for themselves and a single foe" is just so awkward. Nobody talks like that--it barely makes sense. You're suggesting the only person that could break Bob is Bob and one single other guy. It just...it only makes actual sense as a sentence if you already know it's referencing a Prime number. So, you might get a guy who looks really deep at the sentence because its worded so awkwardly, or you might get a guy like me who saw it as near gibberish and figured you must have doubled up on some other clue somewhere else because there was nothing left to figure out.

The Prime bit is the hardest part of your puzzle by a mile, and also the most crucial. You might want to either drop the requirement (so, just any combination of numbers that gets higher and higher works), or drop a much stronger hint. When I think of "Prime" outside of the context of math, I don't think of "best" or "highest" or anything, I think "first" or "prime rib." Maybe a clue about a rib that can't be cut by anything else. Like, I don't know, something along the lines of, "the first rib could not be cut..." or whatever. You are good at coming up with this stuff in general--I'm sure you can do it.


I'm not disagree with your advice and thank you for it, I'll keep cranking away at it.

All the research I've done and in lessons I've had 1 is neither a prime nor composite number. The modern definition of a prime number is a natural number higher than 1 that is divisible only by one or itself. Perhaps though without prior research that might slip the minds of my players.

Hmmm... perhaps I'll look at some other riddle not involving soldiers or something. Maybe another word for symbol or number. I was trying to mimic the riddles of old, like Gollum's famous horses on a hill riddle. Thanks again for your advice.


This is the sort of thing that is maybe ok if your guys know you and this sort of thing is usual for your game, like the familiar weekly setter of the cryptic crossword, or you just get how each other think...

I agree, Zenith makes me think of TOP, not PRIME (but I can see it as a valid choice on thesaurus), but a riddle is always easier if you know the answer (expect heads banging against the desk? Yours as well as theirs?)

What about: "These perfect warriors stand undivided...?"

Twenty years ago I may have been scouring all over this like a pack of rats on fries; now, not so much: to start with, I'd be "FFS, gimme the boss..." and it might not "click" for a week or two after we'd then "dun killt da Boss" (after which I'd be all "FFS we could have totally done this without losing more than a handful of HP...").

I suppose I haven't got as much patience any more, plus me hogging the puzzle duties on a game might tick the players off who can't solve this sort of thing who just want to get to the fight...

In summary: if you think your players are the type who can handle this, then that's OK. If not, you can still leave it in as flavor but don't big it up as something you are expecting them to solve? Otherwise the disappointment in farting about with something for several sessions as they keep missing it can get quite palpable...

OR if they come up with a plausible "Hack" solution with decent explanation, let them roll with it (or partially roll with it)?


Thanks Doki-chan.

I have thrown puzzles at them before with mostly positive success. Some are badly done on my part, others are pretty fun. I as a GM am trying to expand my arsenal to break up the ''Find bad guy, kill bad guy.''

I am trying to stay away from using math terms, since it is suppose to be a hard puzzle to avoid a hard fight.

I have come up with a few alternate clues using suggestions from this thread;

1. These perfect soldiers march undivided in an infinite legion. Among them they count only one even head.

2. Top-notch integers sequence on to infinity.

3. Premier and Cardinal they may be yet oddly they always align, save for the misfit who stands first in their line.

4. Infinite figures march on. After the first the gods divided them. Many are fake, composite souls. Find the cardinal ones which stand indivisible, and you will find the ritual key.

Any of these sound better?


Redjack_rose wrote:

Thanks Doki-chan.

I have thrown puzzles at them before with mostly positive success. Some are badly done on my part, others are pretty fun. I as a GM am trying to expand my arsenal to break up the ''Find bad guy, kill bad guy.''

I am trying to stay away from using math terms, since it is suppose to be a hard puzzle to avoid a hard fight.

I have come up with a few alternate clues using suggestions from this thread;

1. These perfect soldiers march undivided in an infinite legion. Among them they count only one even head.

2. Top-notch integers sequence on to infinity.

3. Premier and Cardinal they may be yet oddly they always align, save for the misfit who stands first in their line.

4. Infinite figures march on. After the first the gods divided them. Many are fake, composite souls. Find the cardinal ones which stand indivisible, and you will find the ritual key.

Any of these sound better?

1. This is pretty good. Add "Yet" at the beginning of the second sentence to make it sound more natural.

2. This makes no sense. I get you're trying to use top-notch as a synonym for prime, but it just makes no sense.

3. Don't use premiere or cardinal, or other weird synonyms for prime. They really sound clunky. I don't know what you mean by prime numbers always aligning.

4. Too long, too obvious, uses the word cardinal as an awkward synonym for prime, and doesn't sound cryptic enough.

I'd go with number 1. "Perfect" is a word someone might actually use in regular conversation to describe a soldier, so it's a decent synonym for prime. The metaphor fits nicely and isn't awkward. "These perfect soldiers march undivided in an infinite legion. Yet, they count only one even head among them."


So one of my players managed to guess Prime Numbers from the clue, which is good. We'll see how they do on the rest of it on Thursday.


Redjack_rose wrote:

Here's an alternative riddle;

These supreme warriors stand unbreakable save for themselves and a single foe, ever on marching they will go. The first is an even fellow it’s been said, but the rest of them are surely odd in the head.

Is that better?

I thought this one was the best clue, plus it rhymes!

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