I have a question about stealth in combat and how it works. Let me set the scene...
My PCs have been teleported into the entry hall of a giant cathedral. This place is pitch black (though everyone has darkvision 60ft) and has 30ft high ceilings. Through the archway into the main room the PCs can see a pissed off ghost that they have encountered and beaten a bit over a week before hand. Behind the wall of the arch in the next room, out of sight of the PCs, is the ghost's sister which just happens to be a vampire which they also encountered and beaten before.
So what I want to do is have the ghost engage them in combat and have the vamp go stealthy. The vamp has Spider Climb (Ex) and I want her to use that and climb the walls to the ceiling and get into position above the PCs to observe and cast spells from up there.
What I would like to know is how many and how often I need the PCs to use perception. I assume at the start when she first goes stealthy, but as long as she doesn't engage in combat and moves at half speed do more checks really need to be made?
What, if anything, is providing the vampire with concealment or cover up on the ceiling? If she's just standing there directly overhead and well within the range of everyone's darkvision, she's in plain sight and technically doesn't meet the criteria for making stealth checks.
If she somehow does qualify for stealth, it becomes a matter of what she's casting. She can't cast anything with an attack roll and remain Stealthy afterwards. Forgoing that, I'd say she'd only have to make a new stealth check after every spell with a somantic component since she's largely giving her position away. If the spells she's casting meets neither of those criteria, then I'd say she can keep her initial stealth check result since she isn't doing anything to draw attention directly to her. That doesn't stop the PCs from continuing to try spotting her round to round while searching for the hidden caster in hopes of beating her check result. 2¢
No I don't mean that she will stay in stealth after casting. I just want her to be able to move there with no one noticing and observe. Once she engages then all bets are off and the PCs will know she is there. I just thought with the PCs engaged with the ghost that they wouldn't notice her on the ceiling. So just need to know if they get a perception vs stealth check every round, or just the first round as long as she doesn't engage.
No I don't mean that she will stay in stealth after casting. I just want her to be able to move there with no one noticing and observe. Once she engages then all bets are off and the PCs will know she is there. I just thought with the PCs engaged with the ghost that they wouldn't notice her on the ceiling. So just need to know if they get a perception vs stealth check every round, or just the first round as long as she doesn't engage.
The issue is that there is no 'stay in stealth' like you a proposing. Stealth in this game doesn't work like semi-invisibility like it does in a video game. Lifat covers the conditions quite well. You need to give your vampire invis or hide in plain sight.
Casting spells has been stated to require an obvious action unrelated to somatic and verbal components, so barring some very class-specific abilities you can't actually cast and remain unnoticed without houserules.
Assuming you add in some concealment such as cobwebs or buttresses, you should roll once at the beginning of the combat and again whenever conditions change - but not again as long as the conditions remain the same. You don't want to roll too many times as D20 variance will eventually reveal the vampire regardless of perception/stealth checks involved, bar some extremely high modifiers. This is fine for a villain (you want it to be seen eventually!), but when applied to the group sneak it makes long-term stealth practically unviable.
"Breaking Stealth; When you start your turn using Stealth, you can leave cover or concealment and remain unobserved as long as you succeed at a Stealth check and end your turn in cover or concealment."
So all you need are some rafters in the ceiling or maybe a couple of unlit/broken chandeliers for the vamp to use as cover.
If there isn't any cover, perhaps the ghost or vamp could create a diversion.
"Create a Diversion to Hide; You can use Bluff to allow you to use Stealth. A successful Bluff check can give you the momentary diversion you need to attempt a Stealth check while people are aware of you."
Diversion is not the answer - you use it "while people are aware of you". It's for those "OMG, I need to get away and hide" moments. That's the opposite of what the vampire wants to do.
Simply put, if it's a featureless ceiling, there is NO normal way to do what you want. Once the vampire is within 60' everyone sees her. Specifically, the DC to see her is 0. Maybe you give a +5 DC for Distraction (combat) and up to +6 for distance, making the DC an 11. Nobody can Take-10 (combat) so they all need to roll, but any PCs capable of winning this fight should have someone capable of making that even if they roll a natural 1.
Speaking in combat is a free action that can be done on any turn, so as soon as the first PC sees her, he shouts a warning to everyone and they see her too.
You could have the vampire use Hide in Plain Sight, or a potion of Invisibility, or darkness (gives her concealment so she can keep trying to use stealth, might be obvious to the PCs when a dark area moves around on the ceiling, but they won't know what it is and she would be able to stealth inside it).
Or you could make the ceiling very interesting. Rafters and chandeliers and banners hanging everywhere. Then our stealthy vampire could dart from cover to cover and keep using Stealth as long as she makes it to cover at the end of her move. Doing this, I suggest a new Stealth check every time she moves and the distance penalty is whatever value is lowest during her move (for example, if she starts her turn at -4, moves up to -2, then ends her turn by moving out to -5, the distance penalty you use is -2).
Diversion is not the answer - you use it "while people are aware of you". It's for those "OMG, I need to get away and hide" moments. That's the opposite of what the vampire wants to do."
Successfully creating a diversion allows you to use stealth. Nowhere does it say it's only use is to escape a situation.
Wow everyone, this has been so helpful. There are obstructing rafters on the ceiling so I'm sure I can make this work. She is completely out of sight when battle would likely start and she would climb to the ceiling before she enters the room and she can use those heavy rafters as her concealment.
These forums come to my rescue yet again. Thanks all.
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Diversion is not the answer - you use it "while people are aware of you". It's for those "OMG, I need to get away and hide" moments. That's the opposite of what the vampire wants to do."Successfully creating a diversion allows you to use stealth. Nowhere does it say it's only use is to escape a situation.
True - but you still need to book it for cover/concealment in order to stealth. Diversion doesn't let you ignore the cover/concealment requirement of stealth, it only lets you ignore the 'not aware' requirement of stealth.
The rafters give her the chance to hide. So make one Stealth roll at the start of the encounter against one roll of Perception from all SCs, add the distance penalty of +1 per 10ft to her effective stealth result , depending on the observer's distance to her, and perhaps a +5 for being distracted by combat.
if it is a close call it might be that a SC cant see her now (due to distance) but might spot here if he by chance wanders close enough to her location that the distance penalty lowers and then gets her.
Example:
The vampire beat the Wizard by 14: Hes never gonna beat her stealth roll.
The Cleric by 7: never gonna spot here before she breaks stealth.
The Ranger by 2: hes gonna notice her hiding in the rafters once he gets closer to her that the distance penalty shrinks by 2 points.
The Rogue beat her stealth by 9: He is gonna spot her the instance she comes into his Darkvision range. he would spot here at 90ft, but as his vision is limited to 60ft that when he sees her.
No I don't mean that she will stay in stealth after casting. I just want her to be able to move there with no one noticing and observe.
If she is a caster have her cast invisibility. Or have her drink a potion of invisibility. It will do exactly what you want, is super cheap and can easily be in their treasure.
I think the ghost, if coordinating with the vampire, is itself the potential distraction/diversion for the vampire. I would also allow the PCs to realize the ghost is deliberately trying to focus their attention on it with some sort of opposed roll (in addition to any Stealth rolls required of the vampire).True - but you still need to book it for cover/concealment in order to stealth. Diversion doesn't let you ignore the cover/concealment requirement of stealth, it only lets you ignore the 'not aware' requirement of stealth.Diversion is not the answer - you use it "while people are aware of you". It's for those "OMG, I need to get away and hide" moments. That's the opposite of what the vampire wants to do."Successfully creating a diversion allows you to use stealth. Nowhere does it say it's only use is to escape a situation.
That's an interesting idea, as long as the ghost uses her Bluff skill to make the diversion. Probably a Standard action or even a full round action. If she beats ALL the PCs' Sense Motive checks, then the vampire can attempt a Stealth check while "others are aware of her".
But wait, nobody IS aware of her. So there is literally no reason to do this.
Even if for some reason we did, the vampire would need to end her turn with cover or concealment or else she's fully visible and observed by everyone.
Fortunately, there seems to be plenty of ceiling cover, so that won't be an issue, but still no reason to create a diversion to help someone make a stealth check while observed when she isn't observed.