Hello and thanks for taking the time to read my post.
First if anyone has any of the 2/3rd edition books let me know how and where to purchase so I can build my collection without paying ebays exorbitant prices or Amazon's which are almost as bad.
Second I'd like to hear a little but about some of the heroes and or types that you guys have created. This thread if it gets any responses will be a discussion about DC Heroes before it became blood of heroes.
For example did your DM's bring in the Justice League as reoccurring characters or did your heroes and them never meet? Did you operate in a major city or wherever you happen to be at the time?
looking forward to hearing something.
This thread if it gets any responses will be a discussion about DC Heroes before it became blood of heroes.
Um... why? Surely Blood of Heroes is still recognizably the same system. What exactly do you have against it?
I mean, I haven't, strictly speaking, played Mayfair's "DC Heroes" since "Blood of Heroes" came out - despite my heavy use of "DC Heroes" material with "Blood of Heroes" - so that "DC Heroes only" restriction doesn't leave me TOO much to say. But ah well.
So what kind of heroes have I created? Most of mine fall into one of four categories:
1) A "Human Torch" type. (I don't know why that is, since I was never particularly a fan of the Fantastic Four.)
2) A "tank" (with high physical attributes, who does the fist-fighting.)
3) A magical type of character from another dimension, with a wide variety of mystical / mystically-linked powers.
4) An alien telepath.
...did your DM's bring in the Justice League as reoccurring characters...
Well, I did once use that one encounter from the module "When a Stranger Calls," in which the PCs meet...
Speaking as a GM I ran practically every sort of character you might ever find in a comic book (everything from comedic Tick or Ambush Bug-style characters to characters like the Adversary, and the Marauders from 90's X-men). In fact I converted pretty much my entire Palladium Robotech collection (I think I'm missing like two books in the entire series) into DC Heroes. Yes, all the mecha, all the aliens, most of the main characters, everything and that isn't even my primary focus of gaming. I'll steal from anything and most times my games will be set in their own set-aside, made-up city occasionally crossing over with other things in the DC universe that I want to include.
Since DC/Blood of Heroes was one of the first universal, one system fits all genres game systems (and way better than that pretender Savage Worlds which purports to do the same) it is a perfect fit for anything with lots of scale.
I own most of the DC line. The reason you're not going to find any inexpensive versions of the game in any form is that Warner Brothers actually owns the rights to the system and doesn't want to share therefore its been out of print for about twenty years.
If you are looking for resources the best is probably . I recommend it to anyone who loves the game or just loves comics and the culture. They stat up and keep up-to-date about 4,000+ comic characters from across all companies (and spread out into manga, anime, TV, movies, books, and even other RPGs) as well as introducing new rules and equipment to the game.
This thread if it gets any responses will be a discussion about DC Heroes before it became blood of heroes.Um... why? Surely Blood of Heroes is still recognizably the same system. What exactly do you have against it?
I mean, I haven't, strictly speaking, played Mayfair's "DC Heroes" since "Blood of Heroes" came out - despite my heavy use of "DC Heroes" material with "Blood of Heroes" - so that "DC Heroes only" restriction doesn't leave me TOO much to say. But ah well.
So what kind of heroes have I created? Most of mine fall into one of four categories:
1) A "Human Torch" type. (I don't know why that is, since I was never particularly a fan of the Fantastic Four.)
2) A "tank" (with high physical attributes, who does the fist-fighting.)
3) A magical type of character from another dimension, with a wide variety of mystical / mystically-linked powers.
4) An alien telepath.
...did your DM's bring in the Justice League as reoccurring characters...Well, I did once use that one encounter from the module "When a Stranger Calls," in which the PCs meet...** spoiler omitted **
I don't have anything against Blood of Heroes, I just know very little about it and didn't want to confuse anyone especially myself. From some of the dated reviews I have read all BoH was a reprint of DCH as in the EXACT same material no changes, updates etc. I could be 100% wrong but that's the reviews I have read and what I have heard.
If I'm wrong please feel free to correct me, I'm still learning this system and am always looking for new stuff.
Thanks for the run down on the characters. I have started a mage from Gemworld and while the major amount of flaws I had to take to build that character are bothersome I am loving this character. In marvel SAGA system when I played a mage it was only 60% of the powers and no stunts, with DCH you gett'em all and I love that.
I guess having the JLA being part of the module having a major character in there makes sense but was that a one shot or did you start having JLA show up alot more?
Speaking as a GM I ran practically every sort of character you might ever find in a comic book (everything from comedic Tick or Ambush Bug-style characters to characters like the Adversary, and the Marauders from 90's X-men). In fact I converted pretty much my entire Palladium Robotech collection (I think I'm missing like two books in the entire series) into DC Heroes. Yes, all the mecha, all the aliens, most of the main characters, everything and that isn't even my primary focus of gaming. I'll steal from anything and most times my games will be set in their own set-aside, made-up city occasionally crossing over with other things in the DC universe that I want to include.
Since DC/Blood of Heroes was one of the first universal, one system fits all genres game systems (and way better than that pretender Savage Worlds which purports to do the same) it is a perfect fit for anything with lots of scale.
I own most of the DC line. The reason you're not going to find any inexpensive versions of the game in any form is that Warner Brothers actually owns the rights to the system and doesn't want to share therefore its been out of print for about twenty years.
If you are looking for resources the best is probably . I recommend it to anyone who loves the game or just loves comics and the culture. They stat up and keep up-to-date about 4,000+ comic characters from across all companies (and spread out into manga, anime, TV, movies, books, and even other RPGs) as well as introducing new rules and equipment to the game.
Thanks for the info about write-ups. I had no idea about that site and it will help my game tremendously.
it sucks that WB doesn't want to do anything with the game it's till alot of fun to play.
I don't have anything against Blood of Heroes, I just know very little about it and didn't want to confuse anyone especially myself. From some of the dated reviews I have read all BoH was a reprint of DCH as in the EXACT same material no changes, updates etc. I could be 100% wrong but that's the reviews I have read and what I have heard.
If I'm wrong please feel free to correct me, I'm still learning this system and am always looking for new stuff.
"Blood of Heroes" 1st edition has a note detailing all the differences between DCH 3rd Edition and BoH 1st. The Gadget and Magic rules were expanded to include information from supplements. Three new powers were added. Less than a dozen powers had any real alterations, and even those were slight.
One downside of BoH is the bad editing. The worst instance of this is in the AP Purchase Chart, under "Factor Cost 2." 14 APs cost 64 hero points, yet 15 APs cost... 60?!? I'm guessing it's supposed to be 76, but maybe it's 72. (Maybe someone with DCH 2nd / 3rd edition could tell me?)
My understanding is that BoH second edition (although I don't have it) is the first edition with all the modifications and additions from the Sidekick Sourcebook (which I also don't have, so you can read up on that in the amazon.com entry.)
Also, I would venture the opinion that the "Blood of Heroes" universe, as seen in 1st Edition, is boring and poorly edited. I understand that many readers thought so and that the universe was therefore left out of 2nd Edition. (However, my young son disagrees with me on that point. He read a lot of it and recited astonishing amounts of it from memory.)
EDIT: I'd also like to emphasize that although I never saw DCH 2nd or 3rd edition, I found the transition from DCH 1st to BoH 1st to be very easy. It was nothing compared to, say, transitioning from D&D 3.0 to 3.5, or from 3.5 to PFRPG.
I guess having the JLA being part of the module having a major character in there makes sense but was that a one shot or did you start having JLA show up alot more?
No, that one shot was it. I prefer to use my own characters.
(Well, actually, I did include two Justice League characters as PCs in one campaign, but that was in BoH, so that doesn't meet your criteria.)
I played in a 12 year long DCH campaign from 1988 to 2000 and that remains my favorite cammpaign out of all the ones I've either played in or even run. We were the Justice League of Canada. Sadly the GM for that campaign no longer games, and in fact we're not even friends anymore. Sad, that.
I played two characters. The first was a sorcerer named Stormbringer (an obvious Elric ripoff) and the second was a guy named Diehard, who's whole schtick was that he couldn't be harmed by anything. No super strength, nothing. Had great times with both characters.
A friend of mine inherited everything the former GM had after he quit gaming, and it's kinda funny you bring this up as I'll be using it soon to run my son and his friends on adventures.
I loved the system, though combat could be slow at times. But character creation was simple and pretty fast and allowed for nearly any type of campaign you could think of, from high powered supers to X-Files type of games.
Dang...now I'm really missing that game.
My understanding is that BoH second edition (although I don't have it) is the first edition with all the modifications and additions from the Sidekick Sourcebook (which I also don't have, so you can read up on that in the amazon.com entry.)Also, I would venture the opinion that the "Blood of Heroes" universe, as seen in 1st Edition, is boring and poorly edited. I understand that many readers thought so and that the universe was therefore left out of 2nd Edition. (However, my young son disagrees with me on that point. He read a lot of it and recited astonishing amounts of it from memory.)
EDIT: I'd also like to emphasize that although I never saw DCH 2nd or 3rd edition, I found the transition from DCH 1st to BoH 1st to be very easy. It was nothing compared to, say, transitioning from D&D 3.0 to 3.5, or from 3.5 to PFRPG.
You are correct -- the 2nd edition of BOH is vastly superior to 1st edition, with better editing and a few more rule changes and clarifications. However, even BOH 2E isn't substantially different from DCH 2E, so if you are just looking for the ruleset I recommend picking that one up. BOH 2E still has some info about the BOH universe, but as I recall not nearly as much as 1E.
Interesting you found the transition between editions easy. I played DCH 1E shortly after it came out, made the switch to the "new" gadgetry rules with the Hardware Handbook, and then switched to 2E (and the Batman RPG) shortly after it came out. 2E cleans up a lot of the limitations of 1E, but the character generation and advancement is a bit more complicated.
I'll second the recommendation for Writeups.org for anyone interested in learning more about DCH. There is also a fairly active DCH group over at Yahoo groups.
Oh yeah. I just thought of another good resource. There's a site with stats for tons of DC characters - some of them at many different times of their existence - here.
Oh yeah. I just thought of another good resource. There's a site with stats for tons of DC characters - some of them at many different times of their existence - here.
Aaron, Thanks for the link. It's a great site. Also I have DCH 3 on pdf if you want me to send it to you. I don't know where MY DM got it but I'm sure it's not stolen or anything like that. Since the books are so rare PDF is the only way to play now. It's two hardcovers and three laptops all around the table. I have been using it for weeks with no issues and I defiantly scanned the crap outta it.
If your willing to drop the cash for hard cover Amazon has the used ones for 50 and the new ones for 100.As far as the sidekick rules they are in the DCH World at War supplement, WW2 type of adventures. I like the explanation DC gives as to why Superman didn't just go over to Germany and clean house. The Axis powers had the Spear of Destiny & The Holy Grail and were using them as magic shields against any super-beings IE any hero with power higher than 6.
So it was up to normal guys like Sgt. Rock and The Haunted Tank with help from The Monster Squad and others to get in the trenches.
I like the explanation DC gives as to why Superman didn't just go over to Germany and clean house. The Axis powers had the Spear of Destiny & The Holy Grail and were using them as magic shields against any super-beings IE any hero with power higher than 6.
So it was up to normal guys like Sgt. Rock and The Haunted Tank with help from The Monster Squad and others to get in the trenches.
wow.
It's true in Hyper Time! (Or your home game, as it was known pre-Grant Morrison.)
Basically DC Heroes/Blood of Heroes has been the same game with minor tweaks since Ray Winninger's most-execellent Second Edition. You can straight up play it and hand wave most things as there may be variation on the theme, but APs (their universal mechanic) has remained a constant since First Edition. Think about it this way, Batman has always had Gadgetry 12, and his Martial Artist skill has wavered by one whole AP in like 29 years (and that's just 'cause in-world Bane broke his back once and even Winninger said he would play him with 10 APs again during the Morrison "Magnificent Seven" run of JLA).
As a side note, everyone should at least check out Ray's other game using a really striped down version of DC called Underground. It's both trippy and hilarious. It's almost more political satire than game. As you can tell, Ray Winninger is one of my all time favorite game designers.
As a side continuity note: The Spear of Destiny showed up again in Constantine (the movie). I'm fairly sure it showed up in the Hellblazer comic before that, but I hadn't been following it them.
apparently the game still has a lot of interest. I was following the core book on ebay for 7 days as it was listed for 5 bucks, 7 days later it went for 50. It is slightly cheaper than amazon but only by about 5 bucks and when you add in shipping and handling it went for basically the same price as amazon. Oh well. I looked at the prices on amazon for the core, cheapest was around 50 bucks used the most expensive was 500 new. nope folks that's NOT a typo 500+ bucks for a new out of print 23 year old book. I think I'm gonna pay my mortgage this month and just let it go.
On the bright side the game I'm in is still going strong so I wanted to ask a few questions.
How do you guys handle super speed, we have a speedster and he's a good friend and a really good guy but man can he break a character. Don't get me wrong it's all 100% legal but the power difference between him and the rest of us is pronounced just because of his power suite of super speed and air control. Last session he didn't mean to but he kinda launched the main bad guy into orbit. We think she may be alive but were not totally sure on that one. The villains are built to be very challenging but our DM wasn't expecting his new reoccurring villain to get launched into the upper reaches of earths orbit.
Next question what's the most memorable villain your guys ever fought using this system or BoH?
Last question for this post, Has anyone ever created a villain as a Playable character and tried it out for this system. I have an idea for the son of Ares to wreck havoc and I wanna play him as a villain and let the DM be the hero but does this system really support a continuous villan as a PC? Thoughts are welcome.
How do you guys handle super speed, we have a speedster and he's a good friend and a really good guy but man can he break a character. Don't get me wrong it's all 100% legal but the power difference between him and the rest of us is pronounced just because of his power suite of super speed and air control. Last session he didn't mean to but he kinda launched the main bad guy into orbit. We think she may be alive but were not totally sure on that one. The villains are built to be very challenging but our DM wasn't expecting his new reoccurring villain to get launched into the upper reaches of earths orbit.
Steven, how does the Super Speed power work in the game? Since I'm not familiar with the game mechanics/terms/acronyms, can you please break it down into common language for me?
How do they handle multiple attacks?
Do characters get the chance to defend, such as block blows or dodge the attack?
What other sorts of things does Super Speed enable you to do?
The power lets you use the strength of the power as the overriding value against your opponents. Example say the hero has a speed of 10 when he punches his strength may only be a 2 which is human average but his superspeed rating lets him hit as a 10 which a str of 6 is super str capable of lifting a ton and a half. Plus he gets more actions plus he can use his SS rating in place of his dex which is how you dodge. The air control was only taken so that he wouldn't create sonic booms as he ran but now he's developing combo's with the two powers that are really powerful.
Like I said his powers are 100% legal.
I hope I broke it down for you enough, if not when I get back on in three days I will be happy to try and explain again. Also thanks in advance for any help/insight.
...he's a good friend and a really good guy but man can he break a character. Don't get me wrong it's all 100% legal but the power difference between him and the rest of us is pronounced just because of his power suite...
Ah... hmm... well...
I've been wanting to say something about MEGS for some time, but I was afraid to. It might stir up controversy. It just seems to me that MEGS was designed to be simple and flexible, and one big price of that simplicity and flexibility is balance.
You know how people on these forums argue about balance in PFRPG? "Rogues are underpowered!" "No, they're not!" "Humans are overpowered!" "No, they're not!" And people support these views with arguments that really split hairs.
Well, such people would tear a game like MEGS to bits. If you want to break the system, you can. Even if you don't mean to, you might. I generally think that the best thing is not to think about it, because it may spoil your fun.
As a matter of fact, I would go even further (and I would welcome a counter-argument to the following thesis, because this matter has really been ruining my opinion of the game in recent months.) I think that some of the balancing issues could have been fixed easily with some adjustments.
For instance, look at those direct-attack powers (such as Energy Blast, Flame Project, Lightning, Magic Blast, Mental Blast, and - in DCH - Heat Vision.) These powers have a factor cost of 3. (Well, I don't know about Heat Vision, because it's not in BoH, but I'm guessing that's 3 also.)
My problem with that is that in the game - as in most superhero stories - an adventure usually boils down to a battle, with direct attacks. And because the power APs are used for both AV and EV, it pays to pump up such powers a lot. It should cost way more than FC 3. I think it should be 7 at least!
I remember once playing the Teen Titans. (I know, I claimed earlier in this thread not to have used many DC characters, but this was a solo campaign, not a "real" one with actual players, so it doesn't count.) And because Starfire had the best "attack" power, she knocked out another villain every round while the rest of the heroes struggled with theirs.
And the opposite problem can happen too. The Growth power can be limited, because characters are often in situations in which they can't use it. ("Don't grow too big! You'll break the ceiling!") And that has a Factor Cost of 10? It ought to be lower.
All that said, I will mention a possible solution to your particular problem later in this post.
Next question what's the most memorable villain your guys ever fought using this system or BoH?
None of the villains were really memorable...
Well, there was the villain of ONE adventure I GMed, but I don't know if he counts, because I never statted him out. He was the omnipotent master of his own dimension. In an offbeat adventure, he abducted the PCs, brought them to his realm, and told them that they must win certain deadly games to win their freedom. (He did this just for his own amusement.) He would appear out of thin air now and then to taunt the PCs, as he believed (erroneously, as he found out at the end of the adventure) that they couldn't possibly escape.
The players loved the way I played him. I didn't even try to act differently when I spoke as the character. I just acted smug, because it seemed obvious the villain would talk that way while teasing the PCs. Yet the players complimented the way I role-played him!
Last question for this post, Has anyone ever created a villain as a Playable character and tried it out for this system.
And yet again, I feel compelled to break the "no BoH" rule. BoH has rules for PC villains, and for PC anti-heroes (like the Punisher.) For instance, villains get a standard award for ENDING the lives of innocent bystanders. Anti-heroes get only 1/2 a standard award for saving innocent bystanders, but get up to 1 1/2 of a standard award for role-playing.
How do they handle multiple attacks?
It's treated as a single attack. It might be a flurry of blows in the fantasy world, but in game mechanics, it's handled as one more accurate or harder blow.
The power lets you use the strength of the power as the overriding value against your opponents. Example say the hero has a speed of 10 when he punches his strength may only be a 2 which is human average but his superspeed rating lets him hit as a 10...
Heh. And yet AGAIN I cite BoH. One of the changes BoH 1st Edition made was that when you use Superspeed to increase damage of hand-to-hand attacks, it attacks the speedster too, with the Superspeed APs as the AV/OV of the self-attack. Might that solve your problem?
...plus he can use his SS rating in place of his dex which is how you dodge.
By the way, the character may choose to substitute Superspeed for Dex (both for AV and OV) instead of Strength (for EV.) If he does, the power doesn't attack him the way I just described. That is to say, EileenProphetofIstus, the speedster may choose to hit and dodge better OR to do more damage, but not both in the same round, and only the latter "burns" him/her. But since you're not familiar with the system, I should mention that in this game, a more accurate hit can do more damage, depending on the numbers.
And of course, Superspeed lets you do any action - read a book, for instance - in less time.
For instance, look at those direct-attack powers (such as Energy Blast, Flame Project, Lightning, Magic Blast, Mental Blast, and - in DCH - Heat Vision.) These powers have a factor cost of 3. (Well, I don't know about Heat Vision, because it's not in BoH, but I'm guessing that's 3 also.)
My problem with that is that in the game - as in most superhero stories - an adventure usually boils down to a battle, with direct attacks. And because the power APs are used for both AV and EV, it pays to pump up such powers a lot. It should cost way more than FC 3. I think it should be 7 at least!
Oh yeah. And then there's Projectile Weapons, with an FC of only 2! Granted, it's only used for EV, not AV, but it's ranged. I think it ought to have an FC of at least 6.
And how about Claws? I don't have the book with me, but if I recall correctly, the FC is only 1! Even a low-HP character could be deadly with that!
Last session he didn't mean to but he kinda launched the main bad guy into orbit. We think she may be alive but were not totally sure on that one. The villains are built to be very challenging but our DM wasn't expecting his new reoccurring villain to get launched into the upper reaches of earths orbit.
You know, that's just asking the GM to have her come back later, more powerful than ever.
...he's a good friend and a really good guy but man can he break a character. Don't get me wrong it's all 100% legal but the power difference between him and the rest of us is pronounced just because of his power suite...Ah... hmm... well...
I've been wanting to say something about MEGS for some time, but I was afraid to. It might stir up controversy. It just seems to me that MEGS was designed to be simple and flexible, and one big price of that simplicity and flexibility is balance.
You know how people on these forums argue about balance in PFRPG? "Rogues are underpowered!" "No, they're not!" "Humans are overpowered!" "No, they're not!" And people support these views with arguments that really split hairs.
Well, such people would tear a game like MEGS to bits. If you want to break the system, you can. Even if you don't mean to, you might. I generally think that the best thing is not to think about it, because it may spoil your fun.
As a matter of fact, I would go even further (and I would welcome a counter-argument to the following thesis, because this matter has really been ruining my opinion of the game in recent months.) I think that some of the balancing issues could have been fixed easily with some adjustments.
For instance, look at those direct-attack powers (such as Energy Blast, Flame Project, Lightning, Magic Blast, Mental Blast, and - in DCH - Heat Vision.) These powers have a factor cost of 3. (Well, I don't know about Heat Vision, because it's not in BoH, but I'm guessing that's 3 also.)
My problem with that is that in the game - as in most superhero stories - an adventure usually boils down to a battle, with direct attacks. And because the power APs are used for both AV and EV, it pays to pump up such powers a lot. It should cost way more than FC 3. I think it should be 7 at least!
I remember once playing the Teen Titans. (I know, I claimed earlier in this thread not to have used many DC characters, but this was a solo campaign, not a "real"...
Thanks for all the great advice. I think my DM has figured out another way to handle our superspeedster, since he likes to run ahead and take of the toughest of the tough the DM let him and he nearly died trying to stop Black Manats supmarine, something about oh being underwater and then getting shocked nearly to death, super speed aint gonna help that. I'll show the DM your sugegstions and see what he says. Thanks agin.
Last session he didn't mean to but he kinda launched the main bad guy into orbit. We think she may be alive but were not totally sure on that one. The villains are built to be very challenging but our DM wasn't expecting his new reoccurring villain to get launched into the upper reaches of earths orbit.You know, that's just asking the GM to have her come back later, more powerful than ever.
yeah we all kindda know that's what going to happen but hopefully by that time we will also be more powerful so it'll even out. Our DM LOVES reoccurring villains and he spent alot of time on this one so yeah he's not going to be letting her go anytime soon.