I have a level 2 summoner that I have played once as a level 2. I don't want to keep him as a summoner in all honesty and want to change him to a monk so I don't waste the scenarios I've put on him. Would I be allowed to do this?
Are you talking about in Pathfinder Society?
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
|
Wrong forum firebird. Flagged for move to PFS general
First off, did you play him at second level before the deadline when they announced all new summoners would be unchained?
If yes, you are good to go. You don't have to change him to an unchained summoner and can go on playing him as a vanilla summoner. If you decide you don't want to play a summoner at all, hang onto him anyway. If you ever do want to play an APG summoner, he is the only way you will ever have to do it.
|
I have a level 2 summoner that I have played once as a level 2. I don't want to keep him as a summoner in all honesty and want to change him to a monk so I don't waste the scenarios I've put on him. Would I be allowed to do this?
If you want to completely retrain your Level 2 Summoner into a Level 2 Monk you're going to have to utilize the retraining rules from Ultimate Campaign, which in PFS means paying an additional 14 Prestige Points, something your character wouldn't have.
You have a few options, though. Spend 7 PP to retrain one of your levels. You'd be a Summoner/Monk for a short while. Although not optimal, I'd say that at level 2 you can get away with it until you can earn another 7 PP to train away your remaining level.
Another option would be to temporarily shelve your character until you have the desire to play an APG Summoner again. This is the option I'd personally advise. I doubt that the stats you picked for your Summoner would be ideal for a Monk. Plus, if you stick with PFS, you'll eventually have a lot of characters. I can almost guarantee that after X amount of time you'll want to play this character again. I've shelved PCs literally for years before picking them back up again.
Your 3rd option is to become a Tier 1 GM at GenCon. You'll earn a Boon you can use to retrain a character for free, even adjusting stats, race, gear, everything (almost). This option requires more dedication than the previous two.
Some ppl consider these options restrictive or "anti-fun", but they've been added over the years for players who asked for retraining options. There used to be nothing available (not even the 1st level rebuild we have now), and many characters were likely trashed.
Hopefully one of those options works for you.
Did unchained really gimp your summoner so much that you don;t want to play it any more?
|
|
The Unchained errata has no affect on his Summoner. It was played at level 2, and is not required to be updated. It sounds like the OP simply doesn't want to play as a Summoner.
I would hesitate to use the word "Gimp". Some people purely cannot accomplish the same build with an Unchained Summoner as they could with an APG Summoner. I use myself as an example. My goal was to build a Summoner as a "Necromancer", complete with a Greatsword-wielding Skeletal Champion as my personal undead thrall, and specialize in summoning Undead via the Skeletal Summoner feat.
That build is not possible with an Unchained Summoner (barring future archetypes or updates). I've read other examples that are similarly no longer viable as well.
Indeed. The "build your own eidolon" aspect of the original summoner allowed for a whole lot of creative ideas that just can't be done with the Unchained Summoner's eidolon being locked into pre-defined flavor.
And yes, I always find it ironic that the Unchained Summoner is a massively restrictive class compared to his "chained" counterpart.
|
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
|
I would hesitate to use the word "Gimp". Some people purely cannot accomplish the same build with an Unchained Summoner as they could with an APG Summoner. I use myself as an example. My goal was to build a Summoner as a "Necromancer", complete with a Greatsword-wielding Skeletal Champion as my personal undead thrall, and specialize in summoning Undead via the Skeletal Summoner feat.
That build is not possible with an Unchained Summoner (barring future archetypes or updates). I've read other examples that are similarly no longer viable as well.
I'm still confused why this is a problem.
Under the old system:
Bipedal Eidolon
Weapon Proficiency
Undead Appearance.
Your eidolon is now an undead outsider (plane defined by your alignment)
Under the new System
Azata(for example)
Bipedal Eidolon
Free weapon proficiency.
Undead Appearance
Your eidolon is now a undead azata, and can be done starting at level 1. Mechanically, it is exactly the same.
Why is this a problem? Remember, even in the old system, the eidolon always had to be an outsider, and undead appearance still kept it's outsider status.
Is it because it is using an evo from Umagic? Those are still legal and unlike APG do not say only for grandfathered charas.
|
I would hesitate to use the word "Gimp". Some people purely cannot accomplish the same build with an Unchained Summoner as they could with an APG Summoner. I use myself as an example. My goal was to build a Summoner as a "Necromancer", complete with a Greatsword-wielding Skeletal Champion as my personal undead thrall, and specialize in summoning Undead via the Skeletal Summoner feat.
That build is not possible with an Unchained Summoner (barring future archetypes or updates). I've read other examples that are similarly no longer viable as well.
I'm still confused why this is a problem.
Under the old system:
Bipedal Eidolon
Weapon Proficiency
Undead Appearance.Your eidolon is now an undead outsider (plane defined by your alignment)
Under the new System
Azata(for example)
Bipedal Eidolon
Free weapon proficiency.
Undead AppearanceYour eidolon is now a undead azata, and can be done starting at level 1. Mechanically, it is exactly the same.
Why is this a problem? Remember, even in the old system, the eidolon always had to be an outsider, and undead appearance still kept it's outsider status.
Is it because it is using an evo from Umagic? Those are still legal and unlike APG do not say only for grandfathered charas.
I don't believe evolutions outside of Unchained are valid for Unchained summoners.
|
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
|
Why?
Barbarian states Barbarian rage powers outside unchained are not allowed
Rogue says rogue talents outside unchained are not allowed unless they are on the list.
Eidolon doesn't say that.
Here is the exact text
Unchained: Most of the summoner’s class features are
the same as those of the class’s original design—the biggest
change comes to the eidolon. The unchained summoner
selects a subtype for his eidolon (such as angel, demon, or
protean), which determines a number of its evolutions and
helps to shape the eidolon’s general attitude and appearance.
In addition, some of the evolutions are now tied to one
or more subtypes and base forms, to make eidolons that
better match the expected appearances and abilities of such
creatures. Finally, the summoner spell list has been greatly
revised, removing a number of imbalances.
|
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
|
Further, there was a question about the summoner spell list, which redid the APG spell list, but left off summoner spells from other books, and it was determined that those spells were still legal, presumably this follows the same rule. (It is not prohibited, and it is not replaced, so it remains as it is)
|
|
Further, there was a question about the summoner spell list, which redid the APG spell list, but left off summoner spells from other books, and it was determined that those spells were still legal, presumably this follows the same rule. (It is not prohibited, and it is not replaced, so it remains as it is)
Actually it was not determined that those spells were still legal. They summoner in unchained has language that specifically states how to determine if spells from other books are still legal.
|
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
|
They completely rewrote the Summoner. Eidolon and all. Why would you think the evolutions were still valid?Why?
Barbarian states Barbarian rage powers outside unchained are not allowed
Rogue says rogue talents outside unchained are not allowed unless they are on the list.
Eidolon doesn't say that.
Because they didn't say they weren't, and they did for the other classes, and because they say in the book that the changes to evolutions were to better fit them to specific appearances.
|
|
Because they didn't say they weren't, and they did for the other classes, and because they say in the book that the changes to evolutions were to better fit them to specific appearances.They completely rewrote the Summoner. Eidolon and all. Why would you think the evolutions were still valid?Why?
Barbarian states Barbarian rage powers outside unchained are not allowed
Rogue says rogue talents outside unchained are not allowed unless they are on the list.
Eidolon doesn't say that.
But PFS and Pathfinder is not inclusive. Its exclusive. In other words, you don't get it unless something says you do.
Unchained would need to specifically include past evolutions (like unchained Barbarian and Rogue both have sidebars telling you what rage powers and rogue talents from other books are still valid as written.) It doesn't include past evolutions specifically, therefore they are not valid for the unchained summoner.
|
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
|
PFs is inclusive. Ultimate Magic says these can be applied to eidolons.
Additional resources says they are legal.
None of those say only APG eidolons.
All the rules say these are allowed.
Unchained barbarian ( IIRC ) doesn't say what are allowed, it says that certain things are not allowed.
|
|
The Unchained Barbarian and Rogue both give list of what options from previous sources are allowed for the new class. Unchained Summoner does not have that list. The safest bet is to assume that since the book isn't telling that you can take those options that you can not take them. Because for the other Unchained classes they specifically told you what was still legal. The precedent is that if they wanted you to be able to use the previous material they would have said so.
|
|
Unchained barbarian ( IIRC ) doesn't say what are allowed, it says that certain things are not allowed.
You are mistaken. Here's the quote.
The list of barbarian rage powers includes replacements for everything from the Core Rulebook, along with select revised powers based on the rage powers from Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player’s Guide and Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Combat. The following rage powers from the latter two books can be used unaltered.
Which is why I believe that the old evolutions aren't allowed.
|
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
|
Except there is also no list for legal archtypes.
So are you saying all the archtypes are illegal?
Alternately, can you present any evolutions that would no longer work with new eidolons? I can think of several that seem less needed, such as celestial appearance, which is largely baked in, but I haven't seen any that just wouldn't work.
|
|
Except there is also no list for legal archtypes.
So are you saying all the archtypes are illegal?
No, PFS additional resources declares how to determine which archetypes you can still use.
But being quiet on evolutions, you have to default back to exclusiveness.
Unchained doesn't list which evolutions from previous books are still ok to use with the new Summoner, therefore none are.
|
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
|
and AR say I can use all the evolutions too.
Pathfinder Player Companion: Champions of Purity
Evolutions: all evolutions on page 26 are legal for play;
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Ultimate Magic
Anyone playing the magus playtest version must have updated his or her character as of 5/19/11. The following are NOT legal for play: (No mention of evolutions)
Compare that to the APG summoner entry, which says it is only legal for PCs played before a certain date.
|
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
|
Actually, looking further, It says that some feats, rogue talents, and rage powers may cause problems. It also says that archtypes are fine as long as the features they replace still exist (except for monk where it says archtypes won't work period.)
So basically, it is listing the things that will cause problems and doesn't list evolutions.
Can you find an evolution that you feel will not work because of the structural changes to the eidolon.
(And no, the AR does not say anything about which archtypes are allowed for unchained.)
|
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
|
Lets continue this logic.
You say unless the class allows it then things relevant to the origional class, published before the new class can no longer be used.
So barbarians lose access to:
Armor of the Tireless Warrior (At targets barbarians and effects their rage, which has changed. Maybe it no longer works?)
I could go through and find a bunch more of these, but I have to get dinner started.
|
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
And yes, I always find it ironic that the Unchained Summoner is a massively restrictive class compared to his "chained" counterpart.
As I keep saying, they didn't unchain the Summoner, they unchained *Pathfinder* from the Summoner. I mean, it's the title of the book and everything. :) :)
|
|
and AR say I can use all the evolutions too.
Pathfinder Player Companion: Champions of Purity
Evolutions: all evolutions on page 26 are legal for play;Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Ultimate Magic
Anyone playing the magus playtest version must have updated his or her character as of 5/19/11. The following are NOT legal for play: (No mention of evolutions)Compare that to the APG summoner entry, which says it is only legal for PCs played before a certain date.
They are all legal for play for the APG summoner. And there is no reason to say they aren't legal anymore, since there are still legal APG summoners out there.
|
|
(And no, the AR does not say anything about which archtypes are allowed for unchained.)
If it isn't in the AR yet, it was in the unchained blog. Where it said that only summoner archetypes that don't change the base form are allowed.
So for all intents and purposes, there is a PFS rule out there for how to handle summoner archetypes.
Really, if you are going to argue this, you need to get all your information correct. Because so far you've gotten the Rogue Talent and Barbarian Rage Power thing wrong.
|
|
Lets continue this logic.
You say unless the class allows it then things relevant to the origional class, published before the new class can no longer be used.
So barbarians lose access to:
Armor of the Tireless Warrior (At targets barbarians and effects their rage, which has changed. Maybe it no longer works?)I could go through and find a bunch more of these, but I have to get dinner started.
Anything Barbarian-wise that is not specifically listed in Unchained as being available for use as written, is not available for the Barbarian. There is a sidebar in the Unchained book that explains all this.
Please stop arguing things that are patently false to support your other statements.
|
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
|
No, you are saying they are only legal for APG summoner. The AR says they are legal.
Basically, they are legal for summoners, there is nothing saying they are not legal for unchained summoners. You are arguing that book publication order makes them illegal, which is not a rule stated anywhere, and as I said, would make Armor of the tireless warrior and many other magic items illegal for unchained barbarians.
|
|
I'm not going to argue with you further on this. Its obvious that I'm not going to change your mind, and you aren't going to change mine.
Assume Table Variation.
But suffice to say, that if you are playing an Unchained Summoner at my table, you will have to stick with the evolutions from Unchained or that are specifically called out as legal for the Unchained Summoner.
|
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
|
Lets continue this logic.
You say unless the class allows it then things relevant to the origional class, published before the new class can no longer be used.
So barbarians lose access to:
Armor of the Tireless Warrior (At targets barbarians and effects their rage, which has changed. Maybe it no longer works?)I could go through and find a bunch more of these, but I have to get dinner started.
Anything Barbarian-wise that is not specifically listed in Unchained as being available for use as written, is not available for the Barbarian. There is a sidebar in the Unchained book that explains all this.
Please stop arguing things that are patently false to support your other statements.
Yes, that side bar lists the available rage powers.
So, things not listed there:
Magical items that give barbarians special benefits
Feats such as extra rage and extra rage power
The skald power that allows a barbarian to use their rage bonus in place of the skalds.
If evolutions (which are not addressed anywhere in the book) are illegal, then why are these things (which are not addressed anywhere in the book) legal?
|
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
|
I'm not going to argue with you further on this. Its obvious that I'm not going to change your mind, and you aren't going to change mine.
Assume Table Variation.
But suffice to say, that if you are playing an Unchained Summoner at my table, you will have to stick with the evolutions from Unchained or that are specifically called out as legal for the Unchained Summoner.
Thats fine, as long as you restrict the barbarian to the same list.
|
Further, there was a question about the summoner spell list, which redid the APG spell list, but left off summoner spells from other books, and it was determined that those spells were still legal, presumably this follows the same rule. (It is not prohibited, and it is not replaced, so it remains as it is)Actually it was not determined that those spells were still legal. They summoner in unchained has language that specifically states how to determine if spells from other books are still legal.
Summoners gain access to the following spells. Because they aren't always allowed for every type of character, spells from Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Advanced Race Guide, Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Monster Codex, and Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Mythic Adventures aren't included in these lists. Such spells are cast at the levels indicated in those sources.
Aside from ARG and MC, are there any other sources for legal Unchained Summoner spells?
(I'm creating my first-ever Summoner and have, for the first time ever, found the Archives to be lacking in accurate lists)
Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
|
Further, there was a question about the summoner spell list, which redid the APG spell list, but left off summoner spells from other books, and it was determined that those spells were still legal, presumably this follows the same rule. (It is not prohibited, and it is not replaced, so it remains as it is)Actually it was not determined that those spells were still legal. They summoner in unchained has language that specifically states how to determine if spells from other books are still legal.
Summoners gain access to the following spells. Because they aren't always allowed for every type of character, spells from Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Advanced Race Guide, Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Monster Codex, and Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Mythic Adventures aren't included in these lists. Such spells are cast at the levels indicated in those sources.Aside from ARG and MC, are there any other sources for legal Unchained Summoner spells?
(I'm creating my first-ever Summoner and have, for the first time ever, found the Archives to be lacking in accurate lists)
You might want to check the player companions that were released after the unchained, all those spells should be on the list of both summoners.
|
|
| 4 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
So I believe this thread brings up a topic that needs clarifying. I mean I understand that the Ultimate Magic evolutions are not really overpowering and are generally in line with the list evolutions available in Unchained, but are they allowed for an unchained summoner's eidolon? I am unsure. I would like for the UM evolutions to be open to give the class more ability to differentiate itself from others. I personally do not want to have a similar build to others and would appreciate more variety.
Other's in this thread have mentioned spell list of the unchained summoner, this should also be clarified. A spell that is on the original summoner's list is Infernal Healing. Should unchained summoner not be allowed to cast this spell or should unchained summoners only have access to spells that are specifically mentioned in unchained and sources after unchained was released? I would allow unchained summoners to have spells from sources before unchained at my table while gming but I can see others not allowing this. I do not know about everyone else, but I like to avoid table variation rules.
|
Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
|
So I believe this thread brings up a topic that needs clarifying. I mean I understand that the Ultimate Magic evolutions are not really overpowering and are generally in line with the list evolutions available in Unchained, but are they allowed for an unchained summoner's eidolon? I am unsure. I would like for the UM evolutions to be open to give the class more ability to differentiate itself from others. I personally do not want to have a similar build to others and would appreciate more variety.
I maintain that since the other unchained classes specifically call out that you cannot use options from other books, and this one does not, that you can use those options. But it certainly could use clarification.