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I was right there with you until you got to step 4. Detecting as evil is not, in and of itself, a reason for a paladin to kill something. For one thing there are reasons a non-evil being might detect as evil. For another, past performance is no guarantee of future results.
There is an alignment for that... its called neutral.
This discussion is interesting, but if you really want to see if a "evil outsider" is really evil...use smite evil. The great thing about the ability is that " If the paladin targets a creature that is not evil, the smite is wasted with no effect." So yes the player may be mad that the DM sent a supposedly evil creature at the group and the Paladin can't use his iconic ability, but the Paladin also doesn't fall for activating it and having it fail. If said player then goes full ham and attacks anyway however...
Paladin: "Monstrous Demon, why do you come to this plane? (Paladin uses Detect Evil and the demon senses as evil) If it is for the death of many then I cannot let you pass"
"Demon": "But wait Sir Paladin, I am actually not evil! Please you have to believe me."
Paladin: Then a test then! I call upon the light, let ye be judged and if evil be smote! (Paladin uses Smite Evil. It has no effect) Well my friend it seems that you have truth to your words, for you have passed the test of the light. But be on your way for the denizens of this world will not be as clear-headed as (Paladin is interrupted as Lawful-Stupid Paladin Sir SMERT TER EVIL decapitates the Demon, and promptly falls)
This discussion is interesting, but if you really want to see if a "evil outsider" is really evil...use smite evil. The great thing about the ability is that " If the paladin targets a creature that is not evil, the smite is wasted with no effect." So yes the player may be mad that the DM sent a supposedly evil creature at the group and the Paladin can't use his iconic ability, but the Paladin also doesn't fall for activating it and having it fail. If said player then goes full ham and attacks anyway however...
Paladin: "Monstrous Demon, why do you come to this plane? (Paladin uses Detect Evil and the demon senses as evil) If it is for the death of many then I cannot let you pass"
"Demon": "But wait Sir Paladin, I am actually not evil! Please you have to believe me."
Paladin: Then a test then! I call upon the light, let ye be judged and if evil be smote! (Paladin uses Smite Evil. It has no effect) Well my friend it seems that you have truth to your words, for you have passed the test of the light. But be on your way for the denizens of this world will not be as clear-headed as (Paladin is interrupted as Lawful-Stupid Paladin Sir SMERT TER EVIL decapitates the Demon, and promptly falls)
The thing is that it WILL still work since a Demon, Devil, Daemon, anything with the Evil Subtype will still be affected as if they're Evil even if their actual alignment isn't Evil.
The thing is that it WILL still work since a Demon, Devil, Daemon, anything with the Evil Subtype will still be affected as if they're Evil even if their actual alignment isn't Evil.This discussion is interesting, but if you really want to see if a "evil outsider" is really evil...use smite evil. The great thing about the ability is that " If the paladin targets a creature that is not evil, the smite is wasted with no effect." So yes the player may be mad that the DM sent a supposedly evil creature at the group and the Paladin can't use his iconic ability, but the Paladin also doesn't fall for activating it and having it fail. If said player then goes full ham and attacks anyway however...
Paladin: "Monstrous Demon, why do you come to this plane? (Paladin uses Detect Evil and the demon senses as evil) If it is for the death of many then I cannot let you pass"
"Demon": "But wait Sir Paladin, I am actually not evil! Please you have to believe me."
Paladin: Then a test then! I call upon the light, let ye be judged and if evil be smote! (Paladin uses Smite Evil. It has no effect) Well my friend it seems that you have truth to your words, for you have passed the test of the light. But be on your way for the denizens of this world will not be as clear-headed as (Paladin is interrupted as Lawful-Stupid Paladin Sir SMERT TER EVIL decapitates the Demon, and promptly falls)
Huh. Well in most cases Except for that one my previous thoughts still stand. For that situation a Paladin would do as above, unless he knew about the Evil sub-type in character. If the outsider decided to surrender or ask to not be harmed the Paladin under code should still do so, or ask why he comes off as evil. From there just keeping a careful eye on the situation and trying to get it out of the Material Plane ASAP would probably be best without breaking the law or breaking common morality.
Huh. Well in most cases Except for that one my previous thoughts still stand. For that situation a Paladin would do as above, unless he knew about the Evil sub-type in character. If the outsider decided to surrender or ask to not be harmed the Paladin under code should still do so, or ask why he comes off as evil. From there just keeping a careful eye on the situation and trying to get it out of the Material Plane ASAP would probably be best without breaking the law or breaking...The thing is that it WILL still work since a Demon, Devil, Daemon, anything with the Evil Subtype will still be affected as if they're Evil even if their actual alignment isn't Evil.This discussion is interesting, but if you really want to see if a "evil outsider" is really evil...use smite evil. The great thing about the ability is that " If the paladin targets a creature that is not evil, the smite is wasted with no effect." So yes the player may be mad that the DM sent a supposedly evil creature at the group and the Paladin can't use his iconic ability, but the Paladin also doesn't fall for activating it and having it fail. If said player then goes full ham and attacks anyway however...
Paladin: "Monstrous Demon, why do you come to this plane? (Paladin uses Detect Evil and the demon senses as evil) If it is for the death of many then I cannot let you pass"
"Demon": "But wait Sir Paladin, I am actually not evil! Please you have to believe me."
Paladin: Then a test then! I call upon the light, let ye be judged and if evil be smote! (Paladin uses Smite Evil. It has no effect) Well my friend it seems that you have truth to your words, for you have passed the test of the light. But be on your way for the denizens of this world will not be as clear-headed as (Paladin is interrupted as Lawful-Stupid Paladin Sir SMERT TER EVIL decapitates the Demon, and promptly falls)
Yes for the most part against other creatures that would still be a good idea.
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That was not good guy, but a paladin that didn't care. A demon walks in the street of a little town, at what point does the paladin deal with it? do he have to collect evidence that demons are bad guys? or he have to wait the demon to commit an evil act first?Being Good isn't easy.Or give indication it's going to hurt someone. It being a demon is a good reason to keep a close eye on it, but is (usually) not enough to jump straight to smite town.Good luck when the demon teleport away to the next town.
I would believe that a confrontation would be in order. Not necessarily a combat but definitely a "get in it's face and let it know you are there".
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Probably depends on the locals reaction. If the locals react to the 9 foot tall snarling incarnation of evil by going "Hi bob, the usual?" you should probably take a second to figure out whats going on. If they're doing the sensible thing of running and locking doors you're safe to smite it. Hesitation in such an obvious case is likely to cost lives.
I was right there with you until you got to step 4. Detecting as evil is not, in and of itself, a reason for a paladin to kill something. For one thing there are reasons a non-evil being might detect as evil. For another, past performance is no guarantee of future results.There is a very simple logic tree for Paladins-
Step 1: Is this an (evil) creature that I have fought before? If yes go to Step 6, if no go to Step 2.
Step 2: Do I possess the appropriate Knowledge skill in order to identify this creature? If yes go to Step 5, if no go to step 3.
Step 3: Is the creature being hostile to myself, my friends or a perceived non-combatant? If yes go to Step 6, if no go to Step 4.
Step 4: Does the creature 'detect' as evil? If yes go to step 6, if no go to Step 5.
Step 5: Is the creature willing to parlay and/or stand-down? If yes resolve parlay, if no go to Step 6.
Step 6: Kill it!
I would argue that 'detecting' as evil is in fact justification for a Paladin to attack an unknown foe. By this point, he/she has never seen or fought this type of foe before, has no knowledge regarding it and has been granted by his/her deity the supernatural power to detect evil at will- not all archetypes have this ability. For those that do- a positive detect evil result can serve as justification for eradication. Now if you would like to revise an affirmative answer to Step 4 to be lead to Step 5 (parlay), fine- different strokes for different folks.
"Lawful Good...(blah, blah, blah). They oppose evil wherever it is found, and avoid putting the good of the individual ahead of what is good for the masses....(more blah, blah)."
Scenario:
A party of adventurers selflessly go to cleanse the town crypt of undead. The only caster with them is a wizard. After a tough fight, they finally defeat the undead abominations and save the town. The wizard heals up his injured buddies with the only arcane healing spell he knows. As they are leaving the crypt, they run into a paladin......who smites them and kills them all because they detect as evil.
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Scenario:
A party of adventurers selflessly go to cleanse the town crypt of undead. The only caster with them is a wizard. After a tough fight, they finally defeat the undead abominations and save the town. The wizard heals up his injured buddies with the only arcane healing spell he knows. As they are leaving the crypt, they run into a paladin...
...who smites them and kills them all because they detect as evil.
Or would smite them except they can't because "If the paladin targets a creature that is not evil, the smite is wasted with no effect."
Honestly this is slowly going from "What is the interaction of Paladins with Evil Outsiders (and as the thread continued, evil anything)" to "What situation can I think of to make a Paladin fall and see if the thread thinks it will work." We can cut the chaff and state (and you can quote me on this):
A Paladin following the tenets of his faith and being a Lawful Good character will act in each scenario to the max capacity of those tenets and alignment. If the situation arises in which a Paladin must wrestle between Law and Good, the Paladin then chooses one or the other based on their personality, but never sacrifices either in the upholding of one for a given situation. A Paladin above all else will assess any situation or conflict with the intent of peaceful resolution, whether by words, arrest, or the rare use of lethal force when the former options are unavailable."
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The smite is wasted.
The swing of a 10 pound pointy metal object into the soft tender flesh of the peasant is not.
"SEE!? Decapitated. Must have been evil. Nothing else could explain how a mere +5 sword could hack through the neck of that foul creature disguising itself as a peasant!"
"OOOOONWAAAAARD!"
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Probably depends on where you're standing. Murderhoboing the town council is probably out. In the middle of a dungeon its probably ok.
What? I know it is cannon that devil's and demons can overcome their evil nature and become good...but are you seriously suggesting that applies to politicians?
Scenario:
A party of adventurers selflessly go to cleanse the town crypt of undead. The only caster with them is a wizard. After a tough fight, they finally defeat the undead abominations and save the town. The wizard heals up his injured buddies with the only arcane healing spell he knows. As they are leaving the crypt, they run into a paladin...
...who smites them and kills them all because they detect as evil.Or would smite them except they can't because "If the paladin targets a creature that is not evil, the smite is wasted with no effect."
Honestly this is slowly going from "What is the interaction of Paladins with Evil Outsiders (and as the thread continued, evil anything)" to "What situation can I think of to make a Paladin fall and see if the thread thinks it will work."
I have no desire or intention of making paladins fall. I'm actually a big supporter of paladins (I am currently running two in different games).
I was merely pointing out (to the person I was responding to--the part of my post that you cut out) that "unknown people who detect as evil" are not automatically deserving of smiting and/or butchery.
Don't put words in my mouth.
It would only detect as Lawful it it has more than...4HD iirc
Remember, a normal person doesn't ping at all until they reach a certain HD.
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Outsiders automatically ping on the chart, as do undead and clerics.
People overlook that detect evil also works for pegging how nasty a particular evil creature is. You don't just evil, you get to know if the guy cons purple to you.
I'd really like to know where the schools of thought that paladins are rampaging kill monkeys or alternatively willowy moral equivalists came from, and have them fight to the death for my amusement.
A paladin with a really low wisdom might think that he's supposed to rampage around like a lunatic, but that's the beauty of him being part of an organization, he has people to redirect him.
One of the 'flaws' people see in paladins of yore is their strength. If the paladin has a moral quandary, he can go to the local church and get guidance.
I really should make like 'Spook's rules for not being a jackass to paladins' and put 'Have morality be crystal clear or give the paladin touchstones to assist him in making the right choices' in that list.
Spook's first law for a pathfinder paladin?
Buy a phylactery of faithfulness and if the DM still has you fall after you consulted the thing, utilize appropriate smiting.
My most paladin-esque character, Voren, would disagree (not least because this paladin sounds like he would smite him for being a tiefling).
Voren: "Whether or not one is 'inherently' evil is irrelevant. What matters is whether one chooses to do evil."
*high fives Voren*
But yeah the Paladin is wrong for the most part certain laws would apply to them(Outsiders, Dragons, and Undead) depending on the circumstance and setting if a Devil or Demon is hurling around fireballs and such at buildings in a village sure go ahead and Smite away but if they're just there not bothering anyone just trying to bring down the Holy Thunder on them is something you shouldn't really be doing.
We're talking about creatures that are made of evil. They're not people who do bad things on occasion. They're explicitly beings of evil. For Paladins of Sarenrae, in particular, it's their explicit life's work.
I will seek out and destroy the spawn of the Rough Beast. If I cannot defeat them, I will give my life trying. If my life would be wasted in the attempt, I will find allies. If any fall because of my inaction, their deaths lie upon my soul, and I will atone for each.
A Good Evil Outsider should try to surrender (and the paladin gets a sense motive).
And hope that they're not in front of a Paladin of Serenrae (who is obligated to destroy evil outsiders) or Torag (who may not accept the surrender of enemies of the Dwarves).
Why is a mindless zombie evil? because it was animated/powered by negative energy. Here on the Prime plane its considered evil.
Negative Energy isn't considered evil.
I'd like to point out that the Evil Subtype is that the Subtype sticks with an Outsider(along with the Evil Aura) even if their actual alignment isn't Evil so just seeing a Devil, Demon, Daemon, etc. and detecting and Smiting Evil on it isn't a good way to see that it is evil and shows that a Paladin like any other person should have some critical thinking.
A Paladin is LG equipped with something called Smite Evil that specifically states "If the target of smite evil is an outsider with the evil subtype, an evil-aligned dragon, or an undead creature, the bonus to damage on the first successful attack increases to 2 points of damage per level the paladin possesses Double damage against evil outsiders" There doesn't seem to be any grey area in that.
A creature with the Evil subtype is not the same as a creature with an evil alignment.
Creatures with an evil subtype (generally outsiders) are creatures that are fundamentally evil: devils, daemons, and demons, for instance. Their redemption is rare, if it is even possible. They are evil to their very core, and commit evil acts perpetually and persistently. Mortals with an evil alignment, however, are different from these beings.
Devils, Demons, and Daemons are evil. They're made entirely of evil, down to their core. The idea of a non-evil creature with the evil subtype should not come up even remotely often enough for a paladin to worry about it.
Sarenrae is the goddess of redemption. Her Paladins should take EXTRA care to talk first and smite second.
We're talking about creatures that are made of evil. They're not people who do bad things on occasion. They're explicitly beings of evil. For Paladins of Sarenrae, in particular, it's their explicit life's work.
I will seek out and destroy the spawn of the Rough Beast. If I cannot defeat them, I will give my life trying. If my life would be wasted in the attempt, I will find allies. If any fall because of my inaction, their deaths lie upon my soul, and I will atone for each.
Spawn of the Rough Beast aren't Evil Outsiders they are the spawn of Rovagug so that part of Sarenrae's Paladin code doesn't have anything to do with it.
A Good Evil Outsider should try to surrender (and the paladin gets a sense motive).And hope that they're not in front of a Paladin of Serenrae (who is obligated to destroy evil outsiders) or Torag (who may not accept the surrender of enemies of the Dwarves).
If an Evil Outsider was actually good I'm sure strategy would warrant accepting the surrender like it says in Torag's Code. Also as pointed out earlier the only thing they are commanded to do nothing but destroy is the Spawn of the Rough Beast, they'd still try to redeem Evil Outsiders but if they won't seek redemption they'd be fought like any Evil that didn't seek redemption.
A creature with the Evil subtype is not the same as a creature with an evil alignment.
I'd like to point out that the Evil Subtype is that the Subtype sticks with an Outsider(along with the Evil Aura) even if their actual alignment isn't Evil so just seeing a Devil, Demon, Daemon, etc. and detecting and Smiting Evil on it isn't a good way to see that it is evil and shows that a Paladin like any other person should have some critical thinking.
I never said that they were in fact I kinda pointed out the main difference in that a creature with the Evil Subtype will always detect as evil while a creature with an Evil alignment won't.
Creatures with an evil subtype (generally outsiders) are creatures that are fundamentally evil: devils, daemons, and demons, for instance. Their redemption is rare, if it is even possible. They are evil to their very core, and commit evil acts perpetually and persistently. Mortals with an evil alignment, however, are different from these beings.Devils, Demons, and Daemons are evil. They're made entirely of evil, down to their core. The idea of a non-evil creature with the evil subtype should not come up even remotely often enough for a paladin to worry about it.
They are sentient and have free will; Alignment aligned Outsiders can be redeemed and fall just like anyone else.