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In one of the campaigns I play, my human witch has just met a very nice man and fallen in love with him. After getting to know him and care for him so much, she finds out that he's a werebear. Natural-born, not afflicted.
If they marry and have children, will the children DEFINATELY also be werebears? Or is it a 50/50 chance because the mother is human? At the moment I'm assuming the lycanthropy is the dominant gene.
In this particular case, my human witch would be perfectly fine with her children being werebears or humans, so she's not too worried.
However, I got curious with a couple of other general questions about this kind of situation.
If a mixed couple like werebear x human DID want to prevent their kids from becoming lycanthropes, is there any special magic that would help them do so?
If one kind of natural lycanthrope falls in love with another kind of natural lycanthrope, what would their children turn out to be? (As in, a werebear x wereboar, or some similar strange pairing).
Thank you for any answers or opinions! ^_^
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I don't think there's a set rule on how were-babies work. There is the third possibility of the kid being a Skinwalker.
I don't think there's a set rule on how were-babies work. There is the third possibility of the kid being a Skinwalker.
Oooh, I hadn't even thought of that! Let's see... werebear skinwalkers are the Coldborn, I think? That's pretty neat.
lycanthropy is more than likely a bloodborne pathogen which also exists in the mucus of the afflicted. Meaning you'd catch it if you had snuu snuu.
to prevent it? a whole lot of wolf's bane.
2 different kinds of lycanthropes would probably have 50/50, or the child might simply die from the two disease fighting for control.
why natural versus afflicted are different is the same reason adults that get chicken pox suffer far worse and younger people fair better. the body simply acclimates to the disease better from growing with it.
lycanthropy is more than likely a bloodborne pathogen which also exists in the mucus of the afflicted. Meaning you'd catch it if you had snuu snuu.
to prevent it? a whole lot of wolf's bane.
2 different kinds of lycanthropes would probably have 50/50, or the child might simply die from the two disease fighting for control.
why natural versus afflicted are different is the same reason adults that get chicken pox suffer far worse and younger people fair better. the body simply acclimates to the disease better from growing with it.
Natural lycanthropy is contagious too?! Snuggling with a natural-born lycanthrope can make the human a lycanthrope? :O
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they both have the curse bite feature thingy, so... yeah. :P
though, i should point out, that since your character is aware of her lovers condition, it;s easy enough to stock up on wolf's bane.
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The way it generally works, the woman herself will become an afflicted lycanthrope, but her progeny will be natural lycanthropes.
Werewolf communities typically increase their numbers by kidnapping normal humans for breeding stock.
If the victim is female, she will be kept until the child is born. Male victims as well as the female once the child is born are then slain when they are no longer needed, as they will have become afflicted lycanthropes, and their out of control transformations are a liability to the secrecy of the community.
Such breedings are strictly controlled by the Alpha Lycanthrope and any who take mates or otherwise breed outside of the Alpha's dictates are hunted down by the pack.
maybe in a universe without wolf's bane. :P
in fact i'm pretty sure the child would be natural and the mother would be normal if she took wolf's bane while all this was happening. no diseases propagate between the mother and child after gestation occurs. The child has no direct blood flow from or two the mother and so the child would not infect the mother.
I'll get her some wolf's bane for sure. She loves the werebear, but I'm not sure she wants to become one herself at this point.
Lycanthropes must have a hard time getting dates! ^_^
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Technically the rules say nothing about mucus membranes, it simply mentions the bite. Also given that being lycanthrope is a curse, it might be part of the requirements of the curse. Also it is not impossible to have a bacteria that exists as a transmissible form only in the saliva.
Then again if you are transforming you might not be aware of it per the rules on being an afflicted werecritter.
while the rules only say bite, what's the fun in that? I think it makes the story more interesting. was planning on playing a paladin who got infected by blood getting in his eyes and mouth. because then he REALLY had no idea he was infected/cursed.
++ if it was mouth/curse/bacteria, why would it EVER be inherited and then be less severe for the inheritor?
something something werebear where their unbearable curse is bared to their honeybear
Hmm. Well, in this particular case she isn't being kidnapped or forced to breed. She and the werebear like one another and have chosen to be together. This werebear is Chaotic Good so I doubt he's going to assault her.
If sexual contact has a chance of making her a lycanthrope too she'll need time to prepare. She's actually got lots of knowledge of nature and herbology so maybe she can grow herself a nice wolfsbane crop in advance.
The assumption is that the universe HAS wolfsbane, and silver, and all the other things harmful to lycanthropes, such as citizens that can form a mob. That's why werewolf packs rely on secrecy to stay alive. This and other reasons are why those kidnapped for breeding are never seen again.The way it generally works, the woman herself will become an afflicted lycanthrope, but her progeny will be natural lycanthropes.
Werewolf communities typically increase their numbers by kidnapping normal humans for breeding stock.
If the victim is female, she will be kept until the child is born. Male victims as well as the female once the child is born are then slain when they are no longer needed, as they will have become afflicted lycanthropes, and their out of control transformations are a liability to the secrecy of the community.
Such breedings are strictly controlled by the Alpha Lycanthrope and any who take mates or otherwise breed outside of the Alpha's dictates are hunted down by the pack.
maybe in a universe without wolf's bane. :P
but wolf's bane can be handled by lycan just not ingested, and would prevent the kidnappee from gaining lycanthropy, and thus wouldn't need all this kidnap and rape fiasco.
As for why it is inherited? Its a curse, those tend to follow families. Also you can feel free to make it as infectious as you want in your home game, but if your paladin manages to fight a werewolf without getting dinged by a bite it seems a mite vindictive to say "And you get cursed anyways." Though thats personal taste, and groups vary.
my point was that if it;s a curse why would the inheriting offspring have a much tamer or controllable form of the curse than their father/mother. it don't make sense, I tell you.
I am not sure it is actually tamer. Lycanthropes are pretty much always evil and savage. So having all your descendents being a plague on humanity is not that great. Also I am not certain you can fix being a natural lycanthrope. I would also point out natural lycanthropes will create more lycanthropes due to being infectious.
well they always have control over themselves and the transformation is a lot quicker and ALWAYS when the lycan wants too. in essence they never lose control like a normal lycan. so i'd say it's a great deal tamer.
also, though it doesn't really mean much, the template doesn't say anything about changes in general personality other than when they lose control.
The werebear in this particular case is not evil or savage. He is natural-born, Chaotic Good and quite intelligent. He grew up in a small town and generally conducts himself like a regular human being much of the time.
He and the human are in a completely consensual romantic relationship.
I have no idea how evil werewolf rape gangs got into this. It's not what I was asking about at all. :)
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For children, they could be natural born, human, or skinwalkers with the werebear heritage.
this has been discussed. :P
I wouldn't go with skinwalker though, else you'd probably end up never having natural born lycanthropes.
To be fair, I have no idea how those got into this either. Honestly its a home game, just discuss it with your GM. I think it strayed into werewolves since they are the 'standard' werecritter.
For children, they could be natural born, human, or skinwalkers with the werebear heritage.
this has been discussed. :P
I wouldn't go with skinwalker though, else you'd probably end up never having natural born lycanthropes.
Thank you, guys! This is all good information to have. I'll discuss it with my DM and leave up to his judgment. I appreciate your help!
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While I really like Bandw2's ideas, I wouldn't expect a magical disease like lycanthropy to follow all the same rules about transmission as a mundane one would.
For children, they could be natural born, human, or skinwalkers with the werebear heritage.this has been discussed. :P
I wouldn't go with skinwalker though, else you'd probably end up never having natural born lycanthropes.
You could have a scenario in which you need two natural lycanthropes, or a lycan and a skinwalker, to have a child who is a natural lycanthrope. If there's little crossing between lycans and humans you could still keep up a decent natural lycanthrope population that way - or natural lycanthropes could be very rare, which is also acceptable. Depends on the setting.
You could also say that it's dependent on the lycan parent's sex. A female natural lycanthrope will always have natural lycanthrope children, but if only the male is a lycanthrope and the mother avoids infection the children can be skinwalkers or humans. This would represent the fact that carrying and birthing a child has more opportunity to expose that child to infection.
While I really like Bandw2's ideas, I wouldn't expect a magical disease like lycanthropy to follow all the same rules about transmission as a mundane one would.
You could have a scenario in which you need two natural lycanthropes, or a lycan and a skinwalker, to have a child who is a natural lycanthrope. If there's little crossing between lycans and humans you could still keep up a decent natural lycanthrope population that way - or natural lycanthropes could be very rare, which is also acceptable. Depends on the setting.
You could also say that it's dependent on the lycan parent's sex. A female natural lycanthrope will always have natural lycanthrope children, but if only the male is a lycanthrope and the mother avoids infection the children can be skinwalkers or humans. This would represent the fact that carrying and birthing a child has more opportunity to expose that child to infection.
Cool, those are interesting ideas, too. Thank you, Weirdo! :)
@weirdo, let me put it this way, even with needing only 1 parent needing to be a lycan to have natural lycan everytime would still have VERY VERY VERY few natural lycan. afflicted are much worse off and probably hunted. it's a DC 20 will save, that means with 10% chance of success on average after 7 months half of the afflicted lycathropes will realize what they are.(i'm assuming low levels and NPC classes) I mean we're running the gauntlet here of statistical odds, like the number of intelligent species in the galaxy odds. (unless the lycanthropes win i guess. mwuhahahahahaa)
so with needing 2 lycans that can get things going very very rarely, like myth status.
though yeah if we want to go all mythical on how this works, greek mythology placed heavy emphasis on the father determining what the child would be. a few other mythologies placed emphasis on the mother and so you could talk to GM and flip a coin or something to see who determines this. this also would clear up any werebear and wearboar couples.
In general, nothing that can be transmitted by biting wouldn't also be transmitted by kissing.
So its kind of hard to imagine copulation with a were-X wouldn't naturally lead to exposure to the disease.
So perhaps natural were-X come from 2 natural were-parents, or one natural and one afflicted were-parents. A were-X and skinwalker pairing might also result in a natural were-X
Skinwalkers could be the result of one were-parent (natural or afflicted) and an uninfected parent.
Of course, being a curse, there could be the traditional ritualistic elements to it as well (only your eldest child or first born son inherits the curse, kind of thing) but that is probably more setting specific.
I tend to agree with LazarX that the afflicted parent might be gotten rid of once conception/delivery occurs given the threat they pose of exposing the group. But of course a small pack, or isolated pack, might keep them around for further breeding and to swell their numbers.
Also, if someone is kidnapped specifically to be breeding stock for the pack, I doubt they are going to have access to wolfsbane. Being already taken and held against their will, I don't think their captors will honor that particular request.
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It should be noted that:
a) A natural lycanthrope can only infect while in animal or hybrid form. They can't give others the affliction by RAW in human form even if they have a bite attack. Saying kissing or banging would pass on the infection is a massive stretch at best. FYI, afflicted lycanthropes can't pass on the disease at all - only natural lycanthropes can.
b) From the lycanthrope template
Natural lycanthropes are born with this ability and have perfect control over their shapechanging. Afflicted lycanthropes contract this ability like a curse or disease from another lycanthrope; they sometimes change form involuntarily.
Curse of Lycanthropy (Su)A natural lycanthrope's bite attack in animal or hybrid form infects a humanoid target with lycanthropy (Fortitude DC 15 negates). If the victim's size is not within one size category of the lycanthrope, this ability has no effect.
The ability is clearly magical in nature and behaves as or very similarly to a curse. Trying to attribute mundane disease behavior to it would be. Mind you, attributing any behavior beyond what is written is a house rule, but since you are house ruling you might as well not feel constrained by the behavior of normal diseases when this isn't a disease at all by RAW and thus doesn't need to act like one unless you want it to.
The way it generally works, the woman herself will become an afflicted lycanthrope, but her progeny will be natural lycanthropes.
Werewolf communities typically increase their numbers by kidnapping normal humans for breeding stock.
If the victim is female, she will be kept until the child is born. Male victims as well as the female once the child is born are then slain when they are no longer needed, as they will have become afflicted lycanthropes, and their out of control transformations are a liability to the secrecy of the community.
Such breedings are strictly controlled by the Alpha Lycanthrope and any who take mates or otherwise breed outside of the Alpha's dictates are hunted down by the pack.
That may be the case with many kinds of lycanthropes...but werebears are often LG. They are more the 'secluded community that get territorial with anything evil' types. As far as husband material goes, they are fairly good if you are into hairy rangers, basically.
Of the other common lycanthropes, wereboars are also non-evil, simply CN. They arereclusive and with a bad temper, but not out right evil- there is a reason why they have race specific rage powers though, so be careful.
On the evil side, weretigers have been portrayed in a way similar ot rakshasa- they often wish to rule over humans with the occasional threat of violence, and then they just sit back with concubines and live in luxury. They typically seek to make skinwalkers as loyal lackeys.
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@weirdo, let me put it this way, even with needing only 1 parent needing to be a lycan to have natural lycan everytime would still have VERY VERY VERY few natural lycan.
Why? Dominant genetic traits, which are generally inherited from a single parent at 50% probability, can become very common in a population. For example, PKU (maple syrup urine disease) can be found at rates up to 1 in 40 in isolated populations - or 1 in 15,000 in the USA as a whole. And this is a disease that can cause serious medical problems including brain damage.
afflicted are much worse off and probably hunted. it's a DC 20 will save, that means with 10% chance of success on average after 7 months half of the afflicted lycathropes will realize what they are.(i'm assuming low levels and NPC classes) I mean we're running the gauntlet here of statistical odds, like the number of intelligent species in the galaxy odds. (unless the lycanthropes win i guess. mwuhahahahahaa)
Yes, afflicted lycanthropes have a rough time, but you seem to be assuming that they'll die off before reproducing. While that might happen sometimes, it's just as likely that a werewolf might survive for months or years before being killed, and father or more rarely mother a natural lycanthrope in that time. It's fairly common in the werewolf narrative for a community to suspect wild animal attacks at first, especially in rural communities where actual wolves may be present. More instinctively peaceful or sneaky forms of lycanthropes (werebears or wererats) may stay hidden even longer.
And once you get a natural lycanthrope, odds of survival and procreation go up dramatically thanks to increased control and improved DR. In fact, a natural lycanthrope may have a better chance of survival than a human in a setting where violent death is common.
so with needing 2 lycans that can get things going very very rarely, like myth status.
Depends on the setting. Lycanthropes are often described as coming together for mutual protection (eg werewolf packs), and these would likely mate primarily with their own kind, producing a stable population of natural lycanthropes.
though yeah if we want to go all mythical on how this works, greek mythology placed heavy emphasis on the father determining what the child would be. a few other mythologies placed emphasis on the mother and so you could talk to GM and flip a coin or something to see who determines this. this also would clear up any werebear and wearboar couples.
Another option is that you can inherit only from a same-gender lycanthrope parent. So the sons of a male werewolf will be werewolves, but the daughters will not be.
It is a curse AND a disease. Remove Disease can cure it. It infects the target a term hardly ever used outside the connotation of disease.
And since we are discussing a subject for which there is no RAW, speculation is appropriate as there is no other answer.
As for kissing being a stretch, I hardly think so. The bite "infects" you with something that must be present in the mouth into your body. There is no reason why that something wouldn't also be introduced into the body through other vectors than a wound (like the mouth).
Yeah, the Bestiary doesn't say that. But its written to give stats to fight things, not make out with them. Except for Succubi, but making out IS how they fight, so.....
It is a curse AND a disease. Remove Disease can cure it. It infects the target a term hardly ever used outside the connotation of disease.
And since we are discussing a subject for which there is no RAW, speculation is appropriate as there is no other answer.
As for kissing being a stretch, I hardly think so. The bite "infects" you with something that must be present in the mouth into your body. There is no reason why that something wouldn't also be introduced into the body through other vectors than a wound (like the mouth).
Yeah, the Bestiary doesn't say that. But its written to give stats to fight things, not make out with them. Except for Succubi, but making out IS how they fight, so.....
If it behaved like a disease, afflicted lycanthropes should be able to pass it on. Natural lycanthropes should also be able to pass it on in humanoid form if they have a bite attack. Since both of these are explicitly not the case, kissing transmitting lycanthropy is highly questionable. Especially since a natural lycanthrope can't even pass it on by chewing on people using their bite attack (as a natural lycanthrope toothy half orc, for example) unless the are out of their humanoid form and into hybrid or animal form.
Also, if someone is kidnapped specifically to be breeding stock for the pack, I doubt they are going to have access to wolfsbane. Being already taken and held against their will, I don't think their captors will honor that particular request.
the idea is, if you have wolf's bane you don't NEED to kidnap people.
As for kissing being a stretch, I hardly think so. The bite "infects" you with something that must be present in the mouth into your body. There is no reason why that something wouldn't also be introduced into the body through other vectors than a wound (like the mouth).
... well. You'd have to be kissing a natural lycanthrope in it's beast forms so.... No. Don't think their is a risk of kissing ever transmitting it.
The ability is clearly magical in nature and behaves as or very similarly to a curse. Trying to attribute mundane disease behavior to it would be. Mind you, attributing any behavior beyond what is written is a house rule, but since you are house ruling you might as well not feel constrained by the behavior of normal diseases when this isn't a disease at all by RAW and thus doesn't need to act like one unless you want it to.
Curse of Lycanthropy (Su)A natural lycanthrope's bite attack in animal or hybrid form infects a humanoid target with lycanthropy (Fortitude DC 15 negates). If the victim's size is not within one size category of the lycanthrope, this ability has no effect.
I find this to be very weird, because I had never even heard of a myth being like this before.
If it behaved like a disease, afflicted lycanthropes should be able to pass it on. Natural lycanthropes should also be able to pass it on in humanoid form if they have a bite attack. Since both of these are explicitly not the case, kissing transmitting lycanthropy is highly questionable. Especially since a natural lycanthrope can't even pass it on by chewing on people using their bite attack (as a natural lycanthrope toothy half orc, for example) unless the are out of their humanoid form and into hybrid or animal form.It is a curse AND a disease. Remove Disease can cure it. It infects the target a term hardly ever used outside the connotation of disease.
And since we are discussing a subject for which there is no RAW, speculation is appropriate as there is no other answer.
As for kissing being a stretch, I hardly think so. The bite "infects" you with something that must be present in the mouth into your body. There is no reason why that something wouldn't also be introduced into the body through other vectors than a wound (like the mouth).
Yeah, the Bestiary doesn't say that. But its written to give stats to fight things, not make out with them. Except for Succubi, but making out IS how they fight, so.....
not necessarily, you can become a carrier and not be contagious.
not necessarily, you can become a carrier and not be contagious.If it behaved like a disease, afflicted lycanthropes should be able to pass it on. Natural lycanthropes should also be able to pass it on in humanoid form if they have a bite attack. Since both of these are explicitly not the case, kissing transmitting lycanthropy is highly questionable. Especially since a natural lycanthrope can't even pass it on by chewing on people using their bite attack (as a natural lycanthrope toothy half orc, for example) unless the are out of their humanoid form and into hybrid or animal form.It is a curse AND a disease. Remove Disease can cure it. It infects the target a term hardly ever used outside the connotation of disease.
And since we are discussing a subject for which there is no RAW, speculation is appropriate as there is no other answer.
As for kissing being a stretch, I hardly think so. The bite "infects" you with something that must be present in the mouth into your body. There is no reason why that something wouldn't also be introduced into the body through other vectors than a wound (like the mouth).
Yeah, the Bestiary doesn't say that. But its written to give stats to fight things, not make out with them. Except for Succubi, but making out IS how they fight, so.....
True. Being infected doesn't make you guaranteed to be infections. It just usually does. Also, minor nitpick but afflicted are not carriers. Carriers show no symptoms while still being infected. Afflicted definitely have symptoms.
Besides, if you aren't contagious you can't infect people by kissing them, so my point still stands. Far more effective methods don't work like biting into someone's arm so their blood mixes with the lycanthrope's saliva, so why would kissing of all things infect others.
If afflicting others was due to lycanthropy being a curse that screws over loved ones of the lycanthrope then I could see this happening, but it would be a thematic choice on the GM's part and not implied by the nature of lycanthropy by any means?
Oh, ho, ho it's magic, you know! Never believe it's not so!
Seriously, I'm also going with Gm's discretion here.
I still find it weird that only natural lycan can spread the "curse", kind of turns the usual mythology for lycanthropes on its head(breeding becomes the main way to gain new lycan instead of bites). I mean was the first lycan then "natural" in some way? else he actually managed to have a family, which probably means it wasn't much of a curse.
also if it ONLY propagates via bite then there's no real reason for it to spread through heritage either, even being a curse. I get it being a curse when afflicted can afflict as well, but idk natural lycan purposefully spreading the curse feels like a stupid idea on their part. Why would you ever risk creating an afflicted. At which point they aren't monsters so much anymore and just people with weird powers like the Skinwalker's from native american mythos.
... well. You'd have to be kissing a natural lycanthrope in it's beast forms so.... No. Don't think their is a risk of kissing ever transmitting it.
As for kissing being a stretch, I hardly think so. The bite "infects" you with something that must be present in the mouth into your body. There is no reason why that something wouldn't also be introduced into the body through other vectors than a wound (like the mouth).
hey, maybe the werebear likes to get freaky
I still find it weird that only natural lycan can spread the "curse", kind of turns the usual mythology for lycanthropes on its head(breeding becomes the main way to gain new lycan instead of bites). I mean was the first lycan then "natural" in some way? else he actually managed to have a family, which probably means it wasn't much of a curse.
also if it ONLY propagates via bite then there's no real reason for it to spread through heritage either, even being a curse. I get it being a curse when afflicted can afflict as well, but idk natural lycan purposefully spreading the curse feels like a stupid idea on their part. Why would you ever risk creating an afflicted. At which point they aren't monsters so much anymore and just people with weird powers like the Skinwalker's from native american mythos.
I suspect the reason is that otherwise it becomes a nightmare for PCs to fight creatures that force DC15 fort saves or get a horrible affliction. At least if only natural lycanthropes can infect it means that the fear of becoming afflicted is a boss fight only thing.
I know that when I started using the Ravenloft Lycanthrope template I had to dial it right back so the PCs could make it though several sessions without an almost certain chance of getting infected. Afflicted basically can't infect anyone with a good fort save without getting in several bites (the hits are cumulative between creatures over a significant period of time, however, meaning that if throughout the day a creature gets bitten 8 times there is a distinct risk of getting infected unless they have a very high fort).
wolf's bane can make overcoming the disease easy enough and probably easy to buy(actually just noticed it's a poison that does con damage, does make it interesting, probably also want to get a wand of resistance just in-case if you don't have a cape anyway), you have anywhere from a couple days to a month to acquire the stuff if you weren't expecting lycan.
to pay for a 12th level cleric casting remove disease is 360gps or 240 if the cleric is of the restoration domain.
wolf's bane can make overcoming the disease easy enough and probably easy to buy(actually just noticed it's a poison that does con damage, does make it interesting, probably also want to get a wand of resistance just in-case if you don't have a cape anyway), you have anywhere from a couple days to a month to acquire the stuff if you weren't expecting lycan.
to pay for a 12th level cleric casting remove disease is 360gps or 240 if the cleric is of the restoration domain.
Yeah...and if your characters can't all get to a 12th level cleric in three days they are SOL.
God forbid you want lycanthropes in a low magic campaign. Then the PCs might not even have access to a cleric at all.
FYI, belladonna is the stuff that removes lycanthropy, and you only have an hour to take it, so you better have it right there and then. It is also a Str poison, so that presents it's own issues, especially if you have to take it after multiple fights. Plus you have no idea if you are infected, so everyone who gets hit has to assume the worst and eat the poison. Just to be safe they should probably make sure they get at least 2 new saves.
A remove disease or heal spell cast by a cleric of 12th level or higher cures the affliction, provided the character receives the spell within 3 days of the infecting lycanthrope's attack. Alternatively, consuming a dose of wolfsbane gives an afflicted lycanthrope a new Fortitude save to recover from lycanthropy.
it's wolf's bane and it gives you an extra fort save per dose. which is a con poison. thankfully if you ingest 2 doses you get 2 extra saves but still only get poisoned once. If you have a cleric that can heal the con damage that's also good.
and if you're in a low magic campaign you probably also want to nerf the curse further
anyway, my problem isn't with the mechanics but how it effects the mythos of pathfinder, makes lycan a lot less monsters or if they are monsters then they're just dumb.