Attacks of Opportunity, Trample, Tiny Creatures... and Combat Reflexes.

[Brogue The Rogue]

So I'm aware that you cannot "make more than one attack for a given opportunity." The two issues I'm coming up with involve combat reflexes (of course) with trampling and with tiny creatures.

With tiny creatures, or creatures using the trample special ability, an attack of opportunity is triggered either for entering the opponent's space or for initiating the trample attack (which involves entering the opponent's space). Now I know that "Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent"... but as the tiny creature or trampling creature moves from the adjacent, threatened space INTO the opponent-with-combat-reflexes' space, does that trigger two attacks of opportunity? One for moving out, and one for moving in?

It's one action, yes, and it is movement, yes, but the rules delineate between moving into and moving out of spaces, and it seems to me that a literal reading of the rules would indicate that this would grant two attacks of opportunity for someone with combat reflexes.

I am not, however, all sure of that. Does anyone have a better idea? have you dealt with this before or gotten a viable developer ruling?

Thanks oodles!

Brogue

[thorin001]

Well, one action can trigger multiple AOOs. Casting Scorching Ray provokes twice, once for casting a spell, and once for making a ranged attack.

[Brogue The Rogue]

That's true. I had forgotten about that. Alrighty, then, seems to me that it does provoke two attacks of opportunity. Interesting.

[EvilMinion]

I'd rule them the same thing.

[Byakko]

I've seen it ruled both ways.

Yes, the movement can provoke twice because they're two different triggering conditions.

The question that often comes up is whether the AoO mentioned in the trample skill is a completely new and different AoO, or just the normal one granted for moving into a creature's square (but with additional side effects).

[Brogue The Rogue]

Byakko, I'm not sure I get what you're saying. You've seen it ruled as only one AOO? If so, why? It seems clear to me that it should be two.

As for your third line, are you proposing that there should then be a third AOO?

[Byakko]

Ah, let me elaborate.
Possible logic for only a single AoO may be as follows:

1) Trample allows the creature to enter foe's square
2) This is otherwise normal movement
3) As they are moving within your threatened area, you receive an AoO, albeit at a -4 penalty. If you choose not to take the AoO, you may instead make a Reflex saving throw to avoid the damage.
4) Whichever option you chose, the provocation for the movement has been made and you don't receive another AoO for the remainder of their movement.

Again, I don't necessarily agree with this, but perhaps this is the thought process some GMs are using when they only grant a single AoO.

[Brogue The Rogue]

Ah, ok, yes, I could see that. Hmm hmmm. Guess it's up to me, then. Thanks, all. :)

[thorin001]

Byakko wrote:

Ah, let me elaborate.

Possible logic for only a single AoO may be as follows:

1) Trample allows the creature to enter foe's square
2) This is otherwise normal movement
3) As they are moving within your threatened area, you receive an AoO, albeit at a -4 penalty. If you choose not to take the AoO, you may instead make a Reflex saving throw to avoid the damage.
4) Whichever option you chose, the provocation for the movement has been made and you don't receive another AoO for the remainder of their movement.

Again, I don't necessarily agree with this, but perhaps this is the thought process some GMs are using when they only grant a single AoO.

Even though it does not show up on the chart, the specific rules for entering an opponent's square (found in the 0' reach section) state that this action provokes. That is a separate provocation from simple movement.

[Byakko]

Another possible line of argument could be that Trample functions like Bull Rush, which states:

"If you do not have the Improved Bull Rush feat, or a similar ability, initiating a bull rush provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver."

The idea being that if you are proficient in this tactic, you don't provoke for it. I could see Trample qualifying as a "similar ability" for this.