I've seen someone survive a coup de grace. Made the saving throw and everything.
It was kind of sad.
I've never seen anyone survive a Coup de Grace. Is that something people actually build for?
I've seen a couple. The idea is that the witch (or whoever) will render someone else helpless and then you ride over and whack them.
Always struck me as a one-trick pony build and I was never impressed.
I've never seen anyone survive a Coup de Grace. Is that something people actually build for?As an exotic one handed you're basically spending a feat for the Deadly property and +1 crit range, which might be nice for a CdG focused build... but if you are building for CdGs wouldn't you be better off with a weapon with a better crit multiplier? The two features are asynergistic with each other anyways, since CdGs autocrit.
A full-health Barbarian that's already raging but got hit by a Hold Person and failed the save is PROBABLY going to survive any similar-level creature hitting it with a Coup de Grace.
In my experience it usually takes a natural 20 to survive a coup de grace, but that can happen.
(And can be pretty hilarious when it does.)
The problem is that the concept of weapons proficiency tiers is pretty much complete bunk. Some get tricky when you get into grappling, but for swords of any type the pointy bit goes into the enemy and if you swing it you want to hit with the sharp side. This is not substantially more complicated than using a club. Indeed, much sword practice would be conducted with clubs. Clubs weighted to be like swords, but still 1d6 bludgeoning simple weapons.
Well not quite. Proper form for cutting with the Katana is actually rather different than with a European Long Sword. With most European weapons, you hack at the enemy, hitting straight on. The thing with the katana is that you actually carve when you cut. The part you want to cut with is the final third of the blade. When performing a proper cut, the form is actually closer to a fishing flick, with the majority of the action happening at your right pinky and first two fingers of your left hand.
A full-health Barbarian that's already raging but got hit by a Hold Person and failed the save is PROBABLY going to survive any similar-level creature hitting it with a Coup de Grace.I've never seen anyone survive a Coup de Grace. Is that something people actually build for?As an exotic one handed you're basically spending a feat for the Deadly property and +1 crit range, which might be nice for a CdG focused build... but if you are building for CdGs wouldn't you be better off with a weapon with a better crit multiplier? The two features are asynergistic with each other anyways, since CdGs autocrit.
How high is your barbarian's fort save?
A 4th level fighter could easily force a DC40+ fort save or die.
18 str+power attack+Weapon spec+greatsword is an average of (3.5x2+4x1.5+4x1.5+2)x2=41 average damage on a coup de grace. Minimum damage is 32
Heck, does your barbarian even have +13 to their fort save at level 4. If they don't, then they are fishing for 20s on minimum damage.
EDIT: I derped, it's 10+damage dealt. Add +10 to all DCs your barbarian has to make. So...DC42 minimum fort save or die...GL?
I'm not familiar with that family. What part of Japan is Clegane-sama from?Tell that to Gregor Clegane.If you play a samurai, then you should HAVE a katana, but you should avoid ever actually USING it.Depends on the time period, I think. Hard to duel with a spear.
The very distant, most North West Isle.
Anyway- yeah, there are spear dueling traditions. Reach is VERY often an advantage, especially in a culture with few shield traditions (although there are a few, actually- particularly in the Ryukyu islands). If you are having a formal duel, it is not too hard to ask to have it in a location where you spear has no problems. Sure, have a katana as backup in the case that the opponent disarms you or makes the fight VERY close quarters, but still- spears are valid main weapons in duels.
It is the random street brawls that might be in alleyways where spears are at a disadvantage. In such a situation, katana and wakizashi rule.
In my experience it usually takes a natural 20 to survive a coup de grace, but that can happen.
(And can be pretty hilarious when it does.)
Or a coup de grace by a level 2 gnome cleric with 7 Strength, hitting the guy with a hammer he can barely hold, because coup de grace was the only thing that could possibly do anything against the foe.
Yea, that guy made the save.
If you like the style and build for crits it's not that bad even with just martial prof.
I once played a pc who behaved like a samurai (and called himself one) without having the class. He used a katana with two hands.
In my experience it usually takes a natural 20 to survive a coup de grace, but that can happen.
(And can be pretty hilarious when it does.)
Or a coup de grace by a level 2 gnome cleric with 7 Strength, hitting the guy with a hammer he can barely hold, because coup de grace was the only thing that could possibly do anything against the foe.
Yea, that guy made the save.
Still, if you are making the kind of coup de graces that can be saved against, then you are not going to be the type of person with much use for a katana most of the time.
Just grabbing a spear with a higher crit multipler would be a faster solution.
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I've never seen anyone survive a Coup de Grace. Is that something people actually build for?
I've seen it, on both sides of the screen.
One was a high level demon with the HP to survive after rolling a nat 20.The other was my paladin pulling out a 27 Fort save when the ghoul CdGed with its bite for 16 damage.
A full-health Barbarian that's already raging but got hit by a Hold Person and failed the save is PROBABLY going to survive any similar-level creature hitting it with a Coup de Grace.
I've seen just such a barbarian survive three coup de grace attempts in a row. THREE!
He rescued himself after that and gained a reputation for being unkillable.
A full-health Barbarian that's already raging but got hit by a Hold Person and failed the save is PROBABLY going to survive any similar-level creature hitting it with a Coup de Grace.I've seen just such a barbarian survive three coup de grace attempts in a row. THREE!
He rescued himself after that and gained a reputation for being unkillable.
They obviously didn't roll a natural 20 and hit the spot where a leaf holding him by his ankles prevented the dragonblood river from touching his skin.
They obviously didn't roll a natural 20 and hit the spot where a leaf holding him by his ankles prevented the dragonblood river from touching his skin.A full-health Barbarian that's already raging but got hit by a Hold Person and failed the save is PROBABLY going to survive any similar-level creature hitting it with a Coup de Grace.I've seen just such a barbarian survive three coup de grace attempts in a row. THREE!
He rescued himself after that and gained a reputation for being unkillable.
eyyy, i recognize that reference.
shame fate/apocrypha will never exist (though i hear the light novel's pretty baller). siegfried and dracula broing it up is great.
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A niten master? It's hard to dual-wield nodachi, and a wakazashi isn't a samurai's weapon, as commoners may carry it.The wakizashi most certainly is a samurai's weapon. Merchants could also carry them, but it was a core part of the daisho that marked one as a samurai.
The katana and wakizashi, together is known to samurai as the daisho, as the most commonly carried multiple weapons by the majority of samurai is the daisho. While a wakizashi could be used as a secondary weapon, its purposes was to be used for acts of seppuku (ritual suicide).
Well I beg to differ with both your points. My mother's family in Japan were physicians for a thousand years initially serving the Daimyo house in Matsue, Japan. Physicians were commoners, however, as a badge of honor all physicians were allowed to carry a single katana - I happen to currently possess that katana (and its a katana, not a wakizashi).
Merchants carried a single katana, and never a wakizashi. Why would a non-samurai carry a suicide weapon?
Yakuza were of the Eta caste, which was the lowest social caste in feudal Japanese society, however, as "administrators" of Eta and redlight districts Yakuza bosses were allowed to carry a single katana to denote thair status as administrators under Shogun law. (This fact is included as part of Rite Publishing Way of the Yakuza)
So both of you are abjectly wrong in stating that only samurai can wear katana, and that other non-samurai sword bearers carry wakizashi only.
Where did you get those claimed notions? They're certainly not true.
One of the primary reasons that I created and develop the Kaidan setting of Japanese horror (PFRPG) is to strive for greater authenticity, and to correct the many, many misconceptions of feudal Japanese culture, in previously published oriental settings.
A full-health Barbarian that's already raging but got hit by a Hold Person and failed the save is PROBABLY going to survive any similar-level creature hitting it with a Coup de Grace.I've never seen anyone survive a Coup de Grace. Is that something people actually build for?As an exotic one handed you're basically spending a feat for the Deadly property and +1 crit range, which might be nice for a CdG focused build... but if you are building for CdGs wouldn't you be better off with a weapon with a better crit multiplier? The two features are asynergistic with each other anyways, since CdGs autocrit.
Hit points don't matter. It's the fortitude save that does you in.
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I would classify the rogue in Kurosawa's Seven Samurai as a nobushi which is essentially a fighter (bandit) and not a rogue, and probably formerly a ronin samurai or ashigaru (conscripted commoner fighter).
Technically and historically, shortly after the end of Sengoku Period, (the period covered in the classic movie) just prior to the start of the Tokugawa Era (around 1590), thousands of samurai were out of work, as the Sengoku Wars which had kept them all employed was over and there was no reason to retain many samurai in each peace-time Daimyo's staff. So tens of thousands of samurai were "let go" (made ronin) and most died of starvation, or became nobushi in order to survive.
The majority of bandits, and there were lots of them were former samurai. These weren't ronin by choice, rather forced upon them due to changes in politics. Many of the periods wakou pirates were also former samurai for the same reasons. Bands of colorfully dressed bandits, called kabukimono, raided unprotected towns and villages were also entirely composed of ronin samurai, and were the impetus to forming the yakuza to protect the "unguilded" occupations like street peddlars from the depredations by these kabukimono gangs. Notably, the bad guys in the Seven Samurai were probably ronin samurai too.
One of the points of the Seven Samurai story (and what kept them samurai instead of becoming like all the other ronin creating bad press). Chose to do the right thing and protect the villagers, keeping their honor of truly being samurai, rather than turning nobushi.
This was the most turbulent time in samurai history.
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I would classify the rogue in Kurosawa's Seven Samurai as a nobushi which is essentially a fighter (bandit) and not a rogue, and probably formerly a ronin samurai or ashigaru (conscripted commoner fighter).
Technically and historically, shortly after the end of Sengoku Period, (the period covered in the classic movie) just prior to the start of the Tokugawa Era (around 1590), thousands of samurai were out of work, as the Sengoku Wars which had kept them all employed was over and there was no reason to retain many samurai in each peace-time Daimyo's staff. So tens of thousands of samurai were "let go" and most died of starvation, or became nobushi in order to survive.
The majority of bandits, and there were lots of them were former samurai. These weren't ronin by choice, rather forced upon them due to changes in politics. Many of the periods wakou pirates were also former samurai for the same reasons. Bands of colorfully dressed bandits, called kabukimono, raided unprotected towns and villages were also entirely composed of ronin samurai, and were the impetus to forming the yakuza to protect the "unguilded" occupations like street peddlars from the depredations by these kabukimono gangs. Notably, the bad guys in the Seven Samurai were probably ronin samurai too.
This was the most turbulent time in samurai history.
That's the disadvantage of growing your warrior class during times of turbulence - when said turbulence is over they get bored and/or unemployed and start harassing the countryside. (One advantage of using militia - they can go back to their normal life - and a bunch of veteran militia makes the countryside harder to harass.)
It happened in Europe during the years of the Viking raids. That was one of the (many) reasons for The Crusades. The Vikings had stopped attacking - and there were too many soldiers. To keep there from being as many bandits etc - the church funneled many of the excess into The Crusades. (Please don't get into the morality of The Crusades here. It's too complicated for a Pathfinder message board and likely to offend someone.)
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A katana is great for starting arguments, and is the focus component of Summon Mall Ninja.
A katana is great for starting arguments, and is the focus component of Summon Mall Ninja.
I'm not arguing, I'm simply stating. ;)
I just publish what I state, and let everyone else do the arguing.
Hit points don't matter. It's the fortitude save that does you in.But both need to be checked, because the fort save doesn't always fail.
True. Nothing stops the power of a natural 20!
But still, the Fort save vs. a Battleaxe is an average DC 23. Assuming 10 strength.
Hit points don't matter. It's the fortitude save that does you in.But both need to be checked, because the fort save doesn't always fail.
Which leads back to the argument that if you are someone who primarily slices and dices people for a living, then the Fort save should be impossible for most creatures barring a nat 20. DC 10 + Critical hit damage? Hell with a level 1 not terribly high strength fighter with a two hander and power attack you are looking at something like DC 30ish.
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"What's a katana good for"?!?!?
Why, it slices, it dices, it shaves, it circumcises, it makes Julian fries, it cuts cheese into little toothpick-ready cubes with a precision that simply cannot be matched by any competing Occidental sword! Order yours NOW and we'll even include a free cutting board and our EXCLUSIVE ornamental display stand!
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"What's a katana good for"?!?!?
Why, it slices, it dices, it shaves, it circumcises, it makes Julian fries, it cuts cheese into little toothpick-ready cubes with a precision that simply cannot be matched by any competing Occidental sword! Order yours NOW and we'll even include a free cutting board and our EXCLUSIVE ornamental display stand!
Samurai Mohel.
Frightening and funny all at once.
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"What's a katana good for"?!?!?
Why, it slices, it dices, it shaves, it circumcises, it makes Julian fries, it cuts cheese into little toothpick-ready cubes with a precision that simply cannot be matched by any competing Occidental sword! Order yours NOW and we'll even include a free cutting board and our EXCLUSIVE ornamental display stand!
You mean julienne fries.
And it really doesn't. Katanas are thick and all of those tasks call for thin blades. Pretty much anything but an estoc or flamberge or other wavy sword is going to do all of those better. Well, a flint knife won't either. Beyond also being not very thin the uneven edge is all kinds of bad news for cutting cheese into little toothpick-ready cubes.
Nothing worse than having your joke ruined by not knowing what you're talking about. :(
Every representation of katanas I've seen, concrete and abstract alike, leaves one with the impression that they're thin blades. I've got one of my own, for that matter, as well as a sizeable collection of many other archaic weapons, and its blade is as thin as any of them (granted, it's also got a nifty little throwing knife built into the hilt, which I tend to doubt a samurai would consider kosher).
Katanas are thick and all of those tasks call for thin blades. Pretty much anything but an estoc or flamberge or other wavy sword is going to do all of those better. Well, a flint knife won't either. Beyond also being not very thin the uneven edge is all kinds of bad news for cutting cheese into little toothpick-ready cubes.Nothing worse than having your joke ruined by not knowing what you're talking about. :(
Every representation of katanas I've seen, concrete and abstract alike, leaves one with the impression that they're thin blades.
They're very thin (and extremely sharp) on the cutting edge, but they're fairly thick at the base, which they need to be in order to not shatter to pieces when you hit them against something hard.
There's a good image here that shows a little bit about what I mean. The image on in the middle is a typical cross-section of a katana; the one on the right is actually more typical of a tanto (the little dagger), which you wouldn't be using as forcefully. That means the tanto is much more prone to breakage if you do something heroic with it....
I would classify the rogue in Kurosawa's Seven Samurai as a nobushi which is essentially a fighter (bandit) and not a rogue, and probably formerly a ronin samurai or ashigaru (conscripted commoner fighter).
Technically and historically, shortly after the end of Sengoku Period, (the period covered in the classic movie) just prior to the start of the Tokugawa Era (around 1590), thousands of samurai were out of work, as the Sengoku Wars which had kept them all employed was over and there was no reason to retain many samurai in each peace-time Daimyo's staff. So tens of thousands of samurai were "let go" (made ronin) and most died of starvation, or became nobushi in order to survive.
I don't think that Kikuchiyo (we might as well finally look up his name) was a ronin samurai; there's a scene where he is trying to prove that he's a real samurai, with an obviously stolen geneology (that says he's only 13 years old). You're right, there are a lot of classes out there that aren't samurai, and he could even be a jumped-up warrior, and Kikuchiyo's skill with arms suggests that he might well be a full BAB class with a big hit die,.... but he's not a samurai, he's a peasant, by his own admission later in the film.
The point, though, is that even in the 1580s, possession of daisho was restricted to the samurai. It wasn't as strictly enforced as it was in the later Edo period, but there's also a scene in that same movie where the peasants are absolutely terrified because they have weapons and armor taken from dead samurai, but they know that they're highly illegal to have (and might anger their samurai protectors).
And of course, forty years later, the sumptuary laws were draconic.
To some extent, I think we're mixing time periods here. The idea that "merchants were allowed to wear a single katana," or example, eventually became true (with the increasing power of the merchant class, they were eventually able to demand concessions because every samurai in the whole archipelago was in debt to them), but not until the later part of the 18th or early 19th century. I don't have details to hand about exceptions for physicians specifically, but that wouldn't help much if a) my character were a rogue, not a physician, and b) my character were trying to pass as an actual samurai.
Similarly, if the character concept is a cultured samurai from the early Edo period [which again argues that it's a rogue, because that's a damn lot of skill points I need for Craft (origami) and Perform (poems about cherry blossoms)] instead of a sword-swinging thug from the Azuchi–Momoyama period, again I need the cultural baggage of a katana in particular.
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I'm bummed that we give these Asian weapons such special treatment and attention and then reduce all other weapons to a generic "Longsword" and "Handaxe" and so forth. If we're gonna get technical why not represent the differences between a Welsh dagger and it's Iranian counterpart? Oh, right, because those were never in anime. If I want a katana I call my scimitar a katana, that's good enough for me.
Doesn't have to be for you though.
A bastard sword is a longsword with increased damage die, that cost a feat.
A katana is a scimitar with increased damage die, that cost a feat.
The katana is good for basically the same reasons the bastard sword is good. You pay a feat to have slightly better damage (+1) in normal situations while fighting one handed, and a decent boost (roughly +2/+2.5) when enlarged or using Lead Blades, the Katana goes to 2d6 instead of 1d8 for the Scimitar, and the bastard sword goes to 2d8 instead of 2d6. If you think the bastard sword is worth a feat, then Katana is worth it too, if you feel the bastard sword isn't worth a feat, then Katana isn't worth it either.
The bright side is that you have ways to take the Katana without paying the feat. Samurai and Ninja have Katana proficency, just like Dwarves treat Dwarven axes as martial weapons.
Nothing worse than having your joke ruined by not knowing what you're talking about. :(You mean julienne fries."What's a katana good for"?!?!?
Why, it slices, it dices, it shaves, it circumcises, it makes Julian fries, it cuts cheese into little toothpick-ready cubes with a precision that simply cannot be matched by any competing Occidental sword! Order yours NOW and we'll even include a free cutting board and our EXCLUSIVE ornamental display stand!
If it makes you feel any better I thought you were going to town on some poor bastard named Julian. :)
A bastard sword is a longsword with increased damage die, that cost a feat.
A katana is a scimitar with increased damage die, that cost a feat.
The katana is good for basically the same reasons the bastard sword is good. You pay a feat to have slightly better damage (+1) in normal situations while fighting one handed, and a decent boost (roughly +2/+2.5) when enlarged or using Lead Blades, the Katana goes to 2d6 instead of 1d8 for the Scimitar, and the bastard sword goes to 2d8 instead of 2d6. If you think the bastard sword is worth a feat, then Katana is worth it too, if you feel the bastard sword isn't worth a feat, then Katana isn't worth it either.
The bright side is that you have ways to take the Katana without paying the feat. Samurai and Ninja have Katana proficency, just like Dwarves treat Dwarven axes as martial weapons.
Eh, the bastard sword does have one niche of being able to give the largest damage dice possible from a manufactured weapon (Titan Fighter with EWP can wield a huge one), giving it potential for a Vital Strike build. So that's exactly one build in which the bastard sword is the best weapon available for it; don't think there are any where a katana is optimal.
I don't think that Kikuchiyo (we might as well finally look up his name) was a ronin samurai; there's a scene where he is trying to prove that he's a real samurai, with an obviously stolen geneology (that says he's only 13 years old). You're right, there are a lot of classes out there that aren't samurai, and he could even be a jumped-up warrior, and Kikuchiyo's skill with arms suggests that he might well be a full BAB class with a big hit die,.... but he's not a samurai, he's a peasant, by his own admission later in the film.I would classify the rogue in Kurosawa's Seven Samurai as a nobushi which is essentially a fighter (bandit) and not a rogue, and probably formerly a ronin samurai or ashigaru (conscripted commoner fighter).
Technically and historically, shortly after the end of Sengoku Period, (the period covered in the classic movie) just prior to the start of the Tokugawa Era (around 1590), thousands of samurai were out of work, as the Sengoku Wars which had kept them all employed was over and there was no reason to retain many samurai in each peace-time Daimyo's staff. So tens of thousands of samurai were "let go" (made ronin) and most died of starvation, or became nobushi in order to survive.
I did offer an alternative to samurai (see bolded). Ashigaru were only ever allowed to carry a spear, or fire an arquebus, never swords.
Another possibility is being a ji-zamurai, which was socially the lowest class of samurai, being essentially a farmer samurai. Samurai for the most part didn't own land, rather earning their full incomes from their lords. Ji-zamurai were farmers who owned their land, that were given samurai status, and expected to learn and possess everything any other samurai was expected to bear, but it was paid for through produce harvested from their farms. Thus ji-zamurai were the poorest of samurai, and often didn't have full training, full accoutrements nor have the other required skillsets expected of them - they couldn't afford it.
The point, though, is that even in the 1580s, possession of daisho was restricted to the samurai. It wasn't as strictly enforced as it was in the later Edo period, but there's also a scene in that same movie where the peasants are absolutely terrified because they have weapons and armor taken from dead samurai, but they know that they're highly illegal to have (and might anger their samurai protectors).
And of course, forty years later, the sumptuary laws were draconic.
Toyotomi Hideyoshi ordered all swords across Japan to be confiscated that were not in the hands of samurai houses, and this was before the Edo Period (granted Toyotomi was right before Tokugawa Ieyasu, so just prior to the start of the Edo Period).
Interestingly, Toyotomi Hideyoshi began his career as an ashigaru serving Oda Nobunaga (the first of the 3 great unifiers of Japan), and moved up in rank, eventually granted samurai status, then at Nobunaga's death becoming regent of Japan (he was never allowed to the title Shogun).
There were old farmhouses still possessing parts of their original thatched roofs that in the 1900's were found katana hidden in them, apparently placed there centuries earlier.
To some extent, I think we're mixing time periods here. The idea that "merchants were allowed to wear a single katana," or example, eventually became true (with the increasing power of the merchant class, they were eventually able to demand concessions because...
While I agree that it's true, your (and Kestral287's) points were that merchants carried wakizashi instead of katana, which is definitely not true. All non-samurai that were ever allowed to carry a sword (during the Edo Period) were allowed to carry a katana, not a wakizashi (they never allowed to wear a wakizashi, which was always considered half the daisho).
You later mention in your last post that look at all the skill points needed imply Kikuchiyo as a rogue ... well samurai were expected to learn origami, tea ceremony, accounting, religion, poetry, history, and other much more mundane or artistic lessons in addition to warcraft.
I'd be hard pressed to use PF class skill limitations to determine what "PC class" actual Japanese people in history (or in a movie) were based on skills known. If you want to be more realistic, samurai (and probably most everyone) would have a lot more skill points to be able to spend based on what they were expected to know.
The concept of katana is the soul of the samurai, really didn't happen until the Edo Period. The preeminent weapon of the samurai (during times of active war) was always the long bow, not his blades which were always secondary weapons to a mounted warrior.
Also, as an aside, while arquebus was eventually relagated to ashigaru, initially, the first users of arquebus were samurai, which is why teppo-bushi is a gunslinger archetype included in Rite Pubishing Way of the Samurai (PFRPG) supplement.
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Eh, the bastard sword does have one niche of being able to give the largest damage dice possible from a manufactured weapon (Titan Fighter with EWP can wield a huge one), giving it potential for a Vital Strike build. So that's exactly one build in which the bastard sword is the best weapon available for it; don't think there are any where a katana is optimal.A bastard sword is a longsword with increased damage die, that cost a feat.
A katana is a scimitar with increased damage die, that cost a feat.
The katana is good for basically the same reasons the bastard sword is good. You pay a feat to have slightly better damage (+1) in normal situations while fighting one handed, and a decent boost (roughly +2/+2.5) when enlarged or using Lead Blades, the Katana goes to 2d6 instead of 1d8 for the Scimitar, and the bastard sword goes to 2d8 instead of 2d6. If you think the bastard sword is worth a feat, then Katana is worth it too, if you feel the bastard sword isn't worth a feat, then Katana isn't worth it either.
The bright side is that you have ways to take the Katana without paying the feat. Samurai and Ninja have Katana proficency, just like Dwarves treat Dwarven axes as martial weapons.
Anyone who wants to max damage dice to combo with Lead Blades/Enlarge or some such & has the high level crit feats such as Blinding Critical? (So that crits are more important than purely from a damage perspective - with a crit feat or two 15-20x2 is probably more valuable than 17-20x3.)
Uncommon? Sure. But it's a niche nonetheless.
Eh, the bastard sword does have one niche of being able to give the largest damage dice possible from a manufactured weapon (Titan Fighter with EWP can wield a huge one), giving it potential for a Vital Strike build. So that's exactly one build in which the bastard sword is the best weapon available for it; don't think there are any where a katana is optimal.A bastard sword is a longsword with increased damage die, that cost a feat.
A katana is a scimitar with increased damage die, that cost a feat.
The katana is good for basically the same reasons the bastard sword is good. You pay a feat to have slightly better damage (+1) in normal situations while fighting one handed, and a decent boost (roughly +2/+2.5) when enlarged or using Lead Blades, the Katana goes to 2d6 instead of 1d8 for the Scimitar, and the bastard sword goes to 2d8 instead of 2d6. If you think the bastard sword is worth a feat, then Katana is worth it too, if you feel the bastard sword isn't worth a feat, then Katana isn't worth it either.
The bright side is that you have ways to take the Katana without paying the feat. Samurai and Ninja have Katana proficency, just like Dwarves treat Dwarven axes as martial weapons.
Well, if all you need is one especific build for it, Katana gives the best damage dice for critfishing builds that need 1 hand free, such as magus. Specially important if you plan to use a lot of enlarge effects. Falcata gives better average damage because of x3, but Katana gives bigger threat range, which some builds value more (like butterfly sting builds, or builds based around frigid touch and 1m staggering effects with no save)
Ohh right, the katana is the best weapon for a strength magus. I'm not sure if it's best enough to be worth a feat or not but that is something.
Eh, the bastard sword does have one niche of being able to give the largest damage dice possible from a manufactured weapon (Titan Fighter with EWP can wield a huge one), giving it potential for a Vital Strike build. So that's exactly one build in which the bastard sword is the best weapon available for it; don't think there are any where a katana is optimal.A bastard sword is a longsword with increased damage die, that cost a feat.
A katana is a scimitar with increased damage die, that cost a feat.
The katana is good for basically the same reasons the bastard sword is good. You pay a feat to have slightly better damage (+1) in normal situations while fighting one handed, and a decent boost (roughly +2/+2.5) when enlarged or using Lead Blades, the Katana goes to 2d6 instead of 1d8 for the Scimitar, and the bastard sword goes to 2d8 instead of 2d6. If you think the bastard sword is worth a feat, then Katana is worth it too, if you feel the bastard sword isn't worth a feat, then Katana isn't worth it either.
The bright side is that you have ways to take the Katana without paying the feat. Samurai and Ninja have Katana proficency, just like Dwarves treat Dwarven axes as martial weapons.
Anyone who wants to max damage dice to combo with Lead Blades/Enlarge or some such & has the high level crit feats such as Blinding Critical? (So that crits are more important than purely from a damage perspective - with a crit feat or two 15-20x2 is probably more valuable than 17-20x3.)
Uncommon? Sure. But it's a niche nonetheless.
Another possible example.
What is a more optimal weapon than a katana for a Kensai Magus? Because I can't think of one.
Ohh right, the katana is the best weapon for a strength magus. I'm not sure if it's best enough to be worth a feat or not but that is something.
Some magus get the proficiency for free. For example, Kensai. Dipping ninja or samurai also give it for free.
Also, if you want a high crit one handed weapon with highest possible damage dice while keeping a free hand, it's the best weapon, regardless of if you are a magus or not. Crane Wing, for example, ask for a free hand. Free hand fighter need for a free hand. And if you fight in a campaign where you need to climb a lot, such as a pirate campaign where you fight in the sails a lot boarding ships and such, a free hand helps a lot.So, again: it's like a "bastard" scimitar. It's not better than the scimitar in every situation, just like the bastard sword isn't better than the longsword in every situation (assuming you have to pay the feat, that is). You spend the feat, or don't spend the feat, depending on your circumstances and build.
Ohh right, the katana is the best weapon for a strength magus. I'm not sure if it's best enough to be worth a feat or not but that is something.
Used to be. But then they released the precise strike arcana (same as the swashbuckler one)
Now, with the swashbuckler, I always viewed the precise strike as a way for them to be on par with other full BAB classes using 2 handed weapons (from both power attack and growing strength stat appropriate for the level), so it was never a problem. At the very least, the scaling did not diverge too much until way later levels (where there are other things to worry about)
On a magus though...well, they aren't full BAB so that is a boost right there, even with just normal attacks. But it also adds the extra damage onto spellstrike, which means they do both slightly better pure melee damage and way better spell combat damage.
So overall, the rapier is the best weapon for a strength magus now, since it is high crit piercing. Dex magi still enjoy scimitars for dervish dance, and katana can be useful for slashing grace.
Still not worth a feat though.
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Which leads back to the argument that if you are someone who primarily slices and dices people for a living, then the Fort save should be impossible for most creatures barring a nat 20. DC 10 + Critical hit damage? Hell with a level 1 not terribly high strength fighter with a two hander and power attack you are looking at something like DC 30ish.Hit points don't matter. It's the fortitude save that does you in.But both need to be checked, because the fort save doesn't always fail.
Hence why the table exploded in amazement when the demon nat 20'd the save against the barbarians CdG.
I'm bummed that we give these Asian weapons such special treatment and attention and then reduce all other weapons to a generic "Longsword" and "Handaxe" and so forth. If we're gonna get technical why not represent the differences between a Welsh dagger and it's Iranian counterpart? Oh, right, because those were never in anime. If I want a katana I call my scimitar a katana, that's good enough for me.
Doesn't have to be for you though.
Because a dagger is a dagger is a dagger.
Mind you a katana is a katana is a katana as well. It's a whole CLASS of sword.
That's how the weapons in Pathfinder work, they reduce each class of weapon they can think of to its most generic name.
I'm bummed that we give these Asian weapons such special treatment and attention and then reduce all other weapons to a generic "Longsword" and "Handaxe" and so forth. If we're gonna get technical why not represent the differences between a Welsh dagger and it's Iranian counterpart? Oh, right, because those were never in anime. If I want a katana I call my scimitar a katana, that's good enough for me.
Doesn't have to be for you though.
Because a dagger is a dagger is a dagger.
Mind you a katana is a katana is a katana as well. It's a whole CLASS of sword.
That's how the weapons in Pathfinder work, they reduce each class of weapon they can think of to its most generic name.
Yeah, but is a curved sword is a curved sword is a curved sword? Why is it different from other curved weapons like the scimitar/saber/shamshir?
Not to mention the simple fact that wakizashi as a separate and superior weapon from a dagger or short sword. If you can boil every type of dagger into one weapon, why do you seperate short swords/daggers?