I was GMing one day for an unofficial game 02June2015 and had an NPC cast Detect Thoughts prior to combat. Combat then ensued and we were all left with the question, what kind of bonuses should this spell grant in combat since it lets you "hear" the "surface thoughts" of your opponent. I consulted with 3 friends of mine who also GM and play a lot of spellcasters and they had no answer either. After the session, we all searched for near to an hour on google/paizo/d20psrd and came up empty-handed. We then decided to address it as a question for Paizo's consideration.
Problem:
theoretically, if you continue to make the concentration check, there is no reason to prevent the use of the spell Detect Thoughts in combat, however; there are no guidelines for that spell or even how to make a concentration check on a spell already cast. Detect Thoughts can effectively become an improved version of Spiderman's Spidey-Sense because it allows the caster to "hear" the "surface thoughts" of whoever he/she is focused on. Note: Spiderman's Spidey-Sense is non-specific yet lets him dodge gunfire whereas Detect Thoughts lets you secretly know exactly what the opponent intends to do unless they discover the use of this spell and then can make Will saves to thwart its use.
Question:
What should be the bonuses granted and the concentration check to maintain the spell in combat?
In conclusion here is the proposed solution I came up with that we 4 agreed on based on the pattern that low level spells scale to become stronger as the caster grows in power and level.
Hearing the Surface Thoughts of an aggressor in combat grants +1 dodge(& CMD by association)/3 caster levels, + caster relevant ability score modifier to reflex and will saves (which is doubled against illusion spells and the CMD vs Trip maneuvers), immunity to feint maneuvers, immunity to bluff checks, and immunity to dirty tricks meant to blind or deafen.
Since concentration of the spell must be maintained to maintain its maximum duration, a concentration check must be made at DC10+2/vigorous motion (such as attacks, combat maneuvers, and/or extravegant movement.)
Dear Paizo,
if you like and want to use the model I came up with for this spell's use in combat, I would really appreciate and be absolutely thrilled if I received some sort of thanks/noted credit in your next update. It would be quite the bragging rights for me to my friends.
Thank you
Sincerely,
Philip Sgrignoli
Most surface thoughts in combat are usually going to be things like "Oh, snap ! Snap, snap, snap !" or more aggressive "Get him, get him, get him !".
You're not going to get an internal dialog along the lines of "He's using Bonetti’s Defense against me. He'll be expecting me to attack with Capa Ferro. But what if he uses Thibault ? Ah, I'll use my study of Agrippa !"
This isn't really a rules question, you're suggesting home brew rules. As such, this would belong in the home brew forum, not the rules forum.
If you were legitimately asking if there is an effect, there isn't. Otherwise there would be rules included in the spell to tell you what it does.
I'm also going to go ahead and say no, you're suggestion makes no sense.
Detect thoughts would at best tell you the general strategy that someone is going to employ, like stabbing you, or hiding and then stabbing you, or using his bow. It might tell you what spell a spell caster is thinking of using.
But it's not going to give you any mechanical bonuses. Knowing that someone is going to stab you, doesn't really mean you're any better at avoiding being stabbed. If you know someone is about to use an illusion spell on you it might be valid to say that the knowledge is enough to give you an immediate save against the illusion (where you normally have to interact with or inspect the illusion as a standard action to actually get the save against it).
I think you guys are failing to realize how much real time strategics people use in fights. if on the defensive, and being overwhelmed then slimguage's thing might make sense, but hearing surface thoughts would pick up on all your strikes and combat maneuvers and you selecting what spell you wish to use on someone. Trust me when I say we talked about this for hours and found justifies for all of it. Watch Code Geas if you don't agree; its a perfect example. Also note that we intentionally did not grant offensive bonuses. An opponent's reactions to your strikes are normally reaction and instinct.
I posted this in the rules forum because this spell should be combat applicable and no guidelines are present. On top of this, I see no rules in place for concentration checks for spells already active since the guides only account for during casting. I then posted what I did as a model. There was no home-brewing where this was used it merely was not an official pathfinder society session.
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I posted this in the rules forum because this spell should be combat applicable and no guidelines are present. On top of this, I see no rules in place for concentration checks for spells already active since the guides only account for during casting. I then posted what I did as a model. There was no home-brewing where this was used it merely was not an official pathfinder society session.
The rules forum is specifically for the actual rules of the game. This is very much a home-brewed rule, as it does not appear in the actual rules of the game.
You may also be overlooking that is is a standard action to maintain a spell with a duration of concentration.
Concentration: The spell lasts as long as you concentrate on it. Concentrating to maintain a spell is a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Anything that could break your concentration when casting a spell can also break your concentration while you're maintaining one, causing the spell to end.
You can't really do anything if you are concentrating on a spell except move. Especially since you have to concentrate for at least 3 whole rounds to get the surface thoughts. That is a massive waste of actions. You are just standing there - any even remotely intelligent creature would just ignore you, making the defensive abilities pointless.
Aside from that, nothing about the actual spell scales with your level. There is no reason to make any defensive bonuses scale either. You aren't looking deeper into someones mind or getting the results faster as your level increases, it stays the same from 3rd level to 20th. The same should apply to any defensive abilities you want to give it.
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I think you guys are failing to realize how much real time strategics people use in fights. if on the defensive, and being overwhelmed then slimguage's thing might make sense, but hearing surface thoughts would pick up on all your strikes and combat maneuvers and you selecting what spell you wish to use on someone. Trust me when I say we talked about this for hours and found justifies for all of it. Watch Code Geas if you don't agree; its a perfect example. Also note that we intentionally did not grant offensive bonuses. An opponent's reactions to your strikes are normally reaction and instinct.
I posted this in the rules forum because this spell should be combat applicable and no guidelines are present. On top of this, I see no rules in place for concentration checks for spells already active since the guides only account for during casting. I then posted what I did as a model. There was no home-brewing where this was used it merely was not an official pathfinder society session.
Anyone taking time to 'think' in a sword fight is dead. It's muscle memory and instincts gained through constant practice and training.
There might be lulls where you have time to think some basic thoughts, but overall, no.
Yeah... no.
You are most definitely suggesting house rule, the actual rules of the game don't give any bonuses or else it would be listed in the spell. It doesn't work this way.
I can see the justification for giving a player who casts Detect Thoughts in combat a slight (+1/+2) Dodge bonus to AC from whatever insights they might pick up by being able to hear thoughts.
However, like Jeraa said, it's a standard action to concentrate, meaning you'd be better off using Total Defense, or casting a 1st level defensive spell, like Shield/Mage Armor.
A spidey-sense spell would be cool though...
Going through these message boards on this spell, I can't see how it could be used in combat. However, in an NPC encounter, it would give you a clue that a discussion was about to turn into a combat. The clue might be misleading too and trigger what wouldn't happen otherwise.
If Detect Thoughts would give boni in combat, it would have spelled that out, and listed what they are.
There is absolutly no mention of combat boni in the spell's description. Thus it gives none.
There is no combat application for detect thoughts because the spell requires concentration (taking up the character's standard actions to maintain).
Duration concentration, up to 1 min./level (D)
What you want is the spell anticipate thoughts (bard 2, inquisitor 2, magus 2, mesmerist 2, psychic 2, sorcerer/wizard 2, witch 2) in Occult Adventures.
People, this thread ended 6 months ago, with everyone saying exactly the same thing - it does not work. No need to resurrect it just to say the same thing.