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I don't mean to be snarky (well, not that snarky), but weren't you going outside every single existing parameter of the rules when you invented the Thief class back in 1974? I don't understand why a person who invented new material that early in the game's use would be a proponent of limitation rather than experimentation.Everyone can play their table how they want to, but at my table, player's will always be allowed to play the character they want to.Have you no limitations at all? No books? No classes? No spells, No feats, no tech? No settings? Wealth? Do you not set Point buy? Do you allow rolling if they dont want point buy? If so, do you not set the die rolling parameters?
Yep. We went HWAAAAY outside the box then. But two things- the figurative* box was very small with flimsy sides in the OD&D boxed set, and we still had some parameters. I am a big believer of letting the players play what they want- including a flying housecat and a Hoka. But if I have 4d6 drop one, I am not gonna let someone have straight 18's that he didnt roll. Someone wants to play a dragon in a low level game? Sure, but you're gonna be a very small and young one, not a elder wyrm.
But your snark here is not out of line in any way. You are absolutely correct, we certainly were out of the box guys back in the Manual of Aurania days- the very first 3PP supplement ever.
So yeah- a DM should try and work with the players to fit in any concept- but it's a two way street- the players need to work with the DM to fit their concepts in, also.
* so was the literal one, come to think of it.
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Oh, good. Another "only the type of fantasy that I like and that fits my cultural parameters is actually fantasy" argument.
Does it have magic in it? It's fantasy. (And yes, something can be multiple genres at once.) Can we move on to something that's not just people claiming their individual likes/dislikes should define a major genre of fiction?
NO TRUE SCOTSMAN ARGUMENT!
Huh? That doesn't really fit the general proposition that fantasy can have guns but not all fantasy must have guns. Which is basically the only thing I just said. Other than also agreeing with the proposition that dwarves and elves can be in fantasy but not all fantasy must have Dwarves and elves.
I don't think he was responding to you.
And glad to hear you're in agreement with my point. Simply put, fantasy is a broad genre that can include (or not include) all kinds of different things. Guns are just one of many elements that may or may not belong in a particular fantasy work.
Jessica Price pretty much nailed it: the only requirement for something to be fantasy is for it to explicitly include magic/the supernatural as a major element of the story.
I also liked one of the other points raised in this thread, that fantasy is more about the setting a story takes place in than the content of said story. You can easily write a Fantasy Horror story, Fantasy Murder Mystery, or a Fantasy Romantic Comedy.
Huh? That doesn't really fit the general proposition that fantasy can have guns but not all fantasy must have guns. Which is basically the only thing I just said. Other than also agreeing with the proposition that dwarves and elves can be in fantasy but not all fantasy must have Dwarves and elves.it was at Jessica in relation to
"only the type of fantasy that I like and that fits my cultural parameters is actually fantasy" argument.
And glad to hear you're in agreement with my point. Simply put, fantasy is a broad genre that can include (or not include) all kinds of different things. Guns are just one of many elements that may or may not belong in a particular fantasy work.
Jessica Price pretty much nailed it: the only requirement for something to be fantasy is for it to explicitly include magic/the supernatural as a major element of the story.
I also liked one of the other points raised in this thread, that fantasy is more about the setting a story takes place in than the content of said story. You can easily write a Fantasy Horror story, Fantasy Murder Mystery, or a Fantasy Romantic Comedy.
Magic yes- but not necessarily all supernatural, otherwise nearly all horror is "fantasy". Mind you, yes, you can have Fantasy Horror. But I dont think that just having Undead in your horror makes it Fantasy.
Speaking of Fantasy Murder Mystery- The Lord Darcy series by Randall Garrett are superb Fantasy Murder Mysteries.
Horror is a type of fantasy, yes. And there are plenty of books classified as fantasy that could just as easily have gone in the horror section (I mean, you'll find Lovecraft on the SF/F shelves in most bookstores).
Everyone can play their table how they want to, but at my table, player's will always be allowed to play the character they want to.Have you no limitations at all? No books? No classes? No spells, No feats, no tech? No settings? Wealth? Do you not set Point buy? Do you allow rolling if they dont want point buy? If so, do you not set the die rolling parameters?
Setting limitations 90% of the time are a non-issue if imagination is applied. Wealth is not a character limiter and I stick pretty closely to wealth by level. Point Buy tends to be 20, but again it is not a character limiter. Rolling is never done. But none of these are limitations on what kind of character someone wants to play.
Beyond that everything that is published by Paizo or Dreamscarred Press is fair game. Because the whole point of playing a tabletop roleplaying game over a video game roleplaying game, is the options. That and never having low rocks or broken bridges or lone guards block your path.
Part and parcel, however, of 'may or may not belong in a particular fantasy work' is 'may or may not belong in a particular fantasy campaign'. Just for the record.
True, though campaigns are a bit different from a lot of other forms of fiction on account of the whole collaborative storytelling aspect. After all, the problem comes up when some people at the table think an element (be it guns, elves, or whatever) would fit into the campaign, and others don't.
Magic yes- but not necessarily all supernatural, otherwise nearly all horror is "fantasy". Mind you, yes, you can have Fantasy Horror. But I dont think that just having Undead in your horror makes it Fantasy.
Yeah, was an issue I realized with my definition soon after posting it. However, it is quite possible to make a Horror story with no supernatural elements (slasher films would be an example).
I'd say the dividing line between the two genres is how important the magic/supernatural angle is within the rest of the story. There's a difference between a horror story where the threat has supernatural elements (like a ghost, vampire, etc) but everything else is strictly mundane, and a story where both sides are making heavy use of magical/supernatural abilities as a core part of the plot.
It's a fuzzy and indistinct line, but genre definitions tend to be that way.
Horror is a type of fantasy, yes. And there are plenty of books classified as fantasy that could just as easily have gone in the horror section (I mean, you'll find Lovecraft on the SF/F shelves in most bookstores).
Oh yes, Lovecraft is Fantasy Horror as they have magic.
But I dont think all horror is fantasy.
Everyone can play their table how they want to, but at my table, player's will always be allowed to play the character they want to.Have you no limitations at all? No books? No classes? No spells, No feats, no tech? No settings? Wealth? Do you not set Point buy? Do you allow rolling if they dont want point buy? If so, do you not set the die rolling parameters?Setting limitations 90% of the time are a non-issue if imagination is applied. Wealth is not a character limiter and I stick pretty closely to wealth by level. Point Buy tends to be 20, but again it is not a character limiter. Rolling is never done. But none of these are limitations on what kind of character someone wants to play.
Ok, so I want to play an incredibly wealthy heir PC, with more money than I know what to do with- a Richy Rich. Am I forced to stick with WBL?
Or I wanna play a Doc Savage like PC, who has all stats around 18. Issue?
Wow, I checked this thread when it started and didn't think much of it, but it got to fifteen pages already! Isn't that a pretty straightforward issue though? I mean, if you're playing in an anytingh goes salad bowl like golarion, the players can make any char they want and have a party of snowflakes. While something like a homebrew setting based on some cultures mythology would probably feel pointless if the party was composed entirely of "the onlys": The only black guy in fantasy japan, the only viking in fantasy persia or the only samurai in the fantasy inca empire. Some games, even if they include dragons and s++*, will not acomodate any character simply by virtue of its inspirational material, and thats not fallacious. Just my 2cps.
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Trying to impose limitations on what qualifies as, say, "fantasy" versus "horror" is meaningless. They are genres that tend to cross over. All genres tend to cross over nowadays. Realistic fiction can blend into mystery can blend into drama can blend into thriller. Blues can blend into jazz can blend into electronic can blend into trance. Action can blend into thriller can blend into romance can blend into western. And so on. Fantasy is an incredibly broad genre.
When books are sorted by genre, they're really just being sorted into the genre they fit into most. Genres aren't separate categories anymore—they're more like different colors. You put cyan under "green" instead of "blue" because there's slightly more green than blue in it, but that doesn't mean it's only green, nor does it mean extremely pale pink is only white. There's still red in there.
Books are shades. Genres are colors. Trying to argue that something isn't fantasy because it's also horror or because it doesn't have as much fantasy as LotR is just without any point at all.
When I'm faced with the whole historical accuracy fallicy myself.. Especially Say I wanted to play a gunslinger but they go "No guns! They're bad for fantasy I hate guns in my fantasy, they weren't even made yet!"
Or some other sodding garbage..
I build Iron Man.
No I don't build a highly advance cybernetic suit
I build a highly advance magical suit. Quite a bit difference.
I start off with the idea of building the character in such a way I can get weapon wand. Folding Plate armor, either adamantine or mythril. With armor spikes. Then get two gauntlets, two boot daggers, maybe an actual weapon.
Then take things like Searing Ray, Flight, Magic Missle and a couple of other weapon based spells like that.
Blam. I'm the Iron man. Then I just look at everyone else's face.
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Trying to impose limitations on what qualifies as, say, "fantasy" versus "horror" is meaningless. They are genres that tend to cross over. All genres tend to cross over nowadays. Realistic fiction can blend into mystery can blend into drama can blend into thriller. Blues can blend into jazz can blend into electronic can blend into trance. Action can blend into thriller can blend into romance can blend into western. And so on. Fantasy is an incredibly broad genre.
When books are sorted by genre, they're really just being sorted into the genre they fit into most. Genres aren't separate categories anymore—they're more like different colors. You put cyan under "green" instead of "blue" because there's slightly more green than blue in it, but that doesn't mean it's only green, nor does it mean extremely pale pink is only white. There's still red in there.
Books are shades. Genres are colors. Trying to argue that something isn't fantasy because it's also horror or because it doesn't have as much fantasy as LotR is just without any point at all.
Shades of Grey?....
sorry...
I just had to..
Everyone can play their table how they want to, but at my table, player's will always be allowed to play the character they want to.Have you no limitations at all? No books? No classes? No spells, No feats, no tech? No settings? Wealth? Do you not set Point buy? Do you allow rolling if they dont want point buy? If so, do you not set the die rolling parameters?Setting limitations 90% of the time are a non-issue if imagination is applied. Wealth is not a character limiter and I stick pretty closely to wealth by level. Point Buy tends to be 20, but again it is not a character limiter. Rolling is never done. But none of these are limitations on what kind of character someone wants to play.
Ok, so I want to play an incredibly wealthy heir PC, with more money than I know what to do with- a Richy Rich. Am I forced to stick with WBL?
Or I wanna play a Doc Savage like PC, who has all stats around 18. Issue?
Super easy.
If you want to be wealthy you take the Rich Parents trait and then take crafting feats. I run crafting using the CRB rules, so if you craft all your own stuff you'll have up to 50% more WBL then the other party members. Invest skill points in craft skills to make items at a discounted cost. If you want to stretch this even further use a means of negating costly material components (like say Razmiran Priest 9th level ability) and masterwork transmutation. You'll easily have a ton of cash more then everybody else.
If you want to play a Doc Savage, you use your 20 points to pick up 4 14's, then invest in Belt of Physical Perfection and Headband of Mental Superiority (or invest in Craft Wondrous Item to make them for yourself faster). You can use your level up ability score increase to make the remaining stats also 20 or even get inherent bonuses off of Wish. Easily done.
More it's completely irrelevant to the larger question because Pathfinder is a particular subgenre of fantasy - it doesn't even pretend to handle all possible variations and genres of fantasy. So saying "X" can belong in fantasy says absolutely nothing about whether it belongs in PF.Trying to impose limitations on what qualifies as, say, "fantasy" versus "horror" is meaningless. They are genres that tend to cross over. All genres tend to cross over nowadays. Realistic fiction can blend into mystery can blend into drama can blend into thriller. Blues can blend into jazz can blend into electronic can blend into trance. Action can blend into thriller can blend into romance can blend into western. And so on. Fantasy is an incredibly broad genre.
When books are sorted by genre, they're really just being sorted into the genre they fit into most. Genres aren't separate categories anymore—they're more like different colors. You put cyan under "green" instead of "blue" because there's slightly more green than blue in it, but that doesn't mean it's only green, nor does it mean extremely pale pink is only white. There's still red in there.
Books are shades. Genres are colors. Trying to argue that something isn't fantasy because it's also horror or because it doesn't have as much fantasy as LotR is just without any point at all.
I'd say Pathfinder is actually trying very hard to handle as many genres of fantasy as it possibly can. See Golarion for details.
If you want to be wealthy you take the Rich Parents trait and then take crafting feats. I run crafting using the CRB rules, so if you craft all your own stuff you'll have up to 50% more WBL then the other party members. Invest skill points in craft skills to make items at a discounted cost. If you want to stretch this even further use a means of negating costly material components (like say Razmiran Priest 9th level ability) and masterwork transmutation. You'll easily have a ton of cash more then everybody else.
But the concept isn't a crafter, it's a wealthy heir.
If you want to be wealthy you take the Rich Parents trait and then take crafting feats. I run crafting using the CRB rules, so if you craft all your own stuff you'll have up to 50% more WBL then the other party members. Invest skill points in craft skills to make items at a discounted cost. If you want to stretch this even further use a means of negating costly material components (like say Razmiran Priest 9th level ability) and masterwork transmutation. You'll easily have a ton of cash more then everybody else.But the concept isn't a crafter, it's a wealthy heir.
Just use Rich Parents then. That fits the concept by itself.
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And if you're high enough level Rich Parents doesn't matter...congratulations. You've reached the level where being an adventurer is more lucrative than being an heir. Just say all your WBL is from your inheritance and you're plenty rich anyways.
And if you're high enough level Rich Parents doesn't matter...congratulations. You've reached the level where being an adventurer is more lucrative than being an heir. Just say all your WBL is from your inheritance and you're plenty rich anyways.
Precisely.
More it's completely irrelevant to the larger question because Pathfinder is a particular subgenre of fantasy - it doesn't even pretend to handle all possible variations and genres of fantasy. So saying "X" can belong in fantasy says absolutely nothing about whether it belongs in PF.I'd say Pathfinder is actually trying very hard to handle as many genres of fantasy as it possibly can. See Golarion for details.
Indeed. Paizo has pretty clearly tried to make Pathfinder as broad as possible within the fantasy genre. Traditional medieval fantasy? They have it. Eastern fantasy? Head to Tian Xia. Sci-fi elements? Buy the tech guide. Want guns in your fantasy. There's a gunslinger class and a bunch of gun-using archetypes.
And if you're high enough level Rich Parents doesn't matter...congratulations. You've reached the level where being an adventurer is more lucrative than being an heir. Just say all your WBL is from your inheritance and you're plenty rich anyways.
Considering WBL increases when you kill things.... either your parents are really crazy or your plotline revolves around killing the other heirs.....
And if you're high enough level Rich Parents doesn't matter...congratulations. You've reached the level where being an adventurer is more lucrative than being an heir. Just say all your WBL is from your inheritance and you're plenty rich anyways.Considering WBL increases when you kill things.... either your parents are really crazy or your plotline revolves around killing the other heirs.....
My parents were adventurers and their parents before them. Good profession if you can survive it.
My parents were adventurers and their parents before them. Good profession if you can survive it.And if you're high enough level Rich Parents doesn't matter...congratulations. You've reached the level where being an adventurer is more lucrative than being an heir. Just say all your WBL is from your inheritance and you're plenty rich anyways.Considering WBL increases when you kill things.... either your parents are really crazy or your plotline revolves around killing the other heirs.....
Pretty dumb adventurer parents, not even giving their children some decent gear to start with.
Course not. You got work your way up like everybody else. It's the adventurer way!
Super easy.If you want to be wealthy you take the Rich Parents trait and then take crafting feats. I run crafting using the CRB rules, so if you craft all your own stuff you'll have up to 50% more WBL then the other party members. Invest skill points in craft skills to make items at a discounted cost. If you want to stretch this even further use a means of negating costly material components (like say Razmiran Priest 9th level ability) and masterwork transmutation. You'll easily have a ton of cash more then everybody else.
If you want to play a Doc Savage, you use your 20 points to pick up 4 14's, then invest in Belt of Physical Perfection and Headband of Mental Superiority (or invest in Craft Wondrous Item to make them for yourself faster). You can use your level up ability score increase to make the remaining stats also 20 or even get inherent bonuses off of Wish. Easily done.
Bah! ;-) Not good enuf. I want to be incredibly wealthy to start, not just with a little more money. I want more like a millions gps. At first level. That's my concept.
And Doc didnt depend on no magic items, and I want straight 18's to start.
You're nerfing my concepts!!! ;-)
And if you're high enough level Rich Parents doesn't matter...congratulations. You've reached the level where being an adventurer is more lucrative than being an heir. Just say all your WBL is from your inheritance and you're plenty rich anyways.
Except with WBL I have the same wealth as the other PC.s I want to be incredibly wealthy. Batman, Ironman wealthy. It's a meme.
Adventurers in general are incredibly wealthy. You are among your peers. The Gold Baron has found his equals at last!
Course not. You got work your way up like everybody else. It's the adventurer way!
And then you die to a group of goblins.
As I said, sucky parents.
Well, that's where the Rich Parents trait comes into effect, Milo. :P
Well, that's where the Rich Parents trait comes into effect, Milo. :P
Rich parents isn't anywhere near close for affording a decent defensive item (or even a pathetic defensive item) a parent would give to help stop their kid from dying.
Admittedly, this is why I generally never have player characters be heir to adventurers, since they would probably get goodies that unbalance the situations. Doing it works alot better with NPCs than PCs.
And if you're high enough level Rich Parents doesn't matter...congratulations. You've reached the level where being an adventurer is more lucrative than being an heir. Just say all your WBL is from your inheritance and you're plenty rich anyways.Considering WBL increases when you kill things.... either your parents are really crazy or your plotline revolves around killing the other heirs.....
Not necessarily. Ive gone many games where we will barely kill a thing. Most of our gear is found or bought from commission we earn hunting down and arresting wanted criminals.
Well, that's where the Rich Parents trait comes into effect, Milo. :PRich parents isn't anywhere near close for affording a decent defensive item (or even a pathetic defensive item) a parent would give to help stop their kid from dying.
Any real defenses—defenses that are likely to actually benefit a character enough to let them win fights they would otherwise die in—would cost a hell of a lot and probably get the puny first level wizard mugged anyways. :P
A better question: Why the f!%+ would any parents of means allow their kid to give up a safe life as a member of the idle wealthy to take one of the ugliest, most dangerous jobs in the world? I'm running Age of Worms right now as a play-by-post on these forums. My PCs just had to crawl though seventy feet of poop water so they could fight parasitic maggot monsters. Any parent that lets their kid grow up thinking adventuring is a good idea for them is, by default, the worst parent ever. The lack of extra funding is just icing on the cake. You want to know what the cake is made out of? Probably not. Some adventurers found it in a dungeon and they're trying to pawn it off as soon as possible. Probably cursed.
I wouldn't call a labradoodle a Labrador and I wouldn't call star wars a fantasy story.
It doesn't mean that labradoodles are bad, just that there's a difference.
In earth science, I heard about a fight on tv between two geologists arguing over whether a rock was a silty sandstone or a sandy siltstone. It got kinda heated. People get a little crazy when the Vagueness of the english language don't accept explanations other than strict categories, but they also go off the rails when they deny that the catagories have any meaning.
Star Wars is "space opera"
Which would seem to be a subset of science fiction, no?