Nothing says roll perception after initative is rolled.Dude, no. It literally lists an order that they happen in, with numbers. Everything says perception happens after initiative is rolled. You don't get to play epistemic nihilist in a rules discussion.
Even with that argument, its nuts to claim that you're not in immediate danger when the monster is about to pounce you.
How an ambush actually works is one of the vaguest area in the rules. But if the party is close enough to be rolling perception checks they are in immediate danger.
I am not saying what you think I am. You can't impose your rules interpretation on my rules interpretation and then claim that I'm the one with a discrepency.
How it works according to that list is
Goblins are hiding.
Surprise round begins
PC's make reactive checks just like the would for anyone hiding. An enemy is an immediate danger so they can't take 10. A scared creature is not so they can (so long as said creature doesn't explode when surprised or anything, limited time offer, do not use if nursing, pregnant or may become pregnant..)How I have it work is
Goblins are hiding. Because NPCs always know when the party is coming. Or the area the pcs are traveling through always has something in the way. Or something.
The goblins declare they want to start the fight when the party is within X feet. (Probably 30 for their sneak attack)
Goblins roll stealth.
PCs get close enough to possibly see the goblins. They roll perception against the lowest adjusted for distance goblin.
Any PC making the check acts in the surprise round, if there is one.
Then take inits. Technically i'm supposed to do this first, but as everyone's mini is frozen in place, it really doesn't matter.
There is a discrepancy in the rules then since the perception check should be made before combat begins unless my example with two perception checks is the intention of the rules. However I don't ever remember getting two perception checks before an ambush.
If the enemies are working on an if-then statement of whether or not to initiate an ambush are you saying you get your normal reactive check, and then another reactive check once the surprise round starts?
I am asking this also to determine how I need to word an FAQ if I make one.
edit: If one PC can almost auto-notice the goblins at 50 feet and the goblins dont attack until 30 feet out is an example of a problem.
Did you follow the link? SKR laid out a perception/surprise timeline where all of the perception rolls regarding surprise were made PRIOR to the initiation of combat.
The guard rolled to notice the stealthing rogue BEFORE the rogue started the attack and initiative was rolled.
The rogue is doing something funny and trying to get VERY close to the guard. And note that if the guard had made the perception check it would have changed the order.
Its a pretty big leap from there to the guard is not in immediate danger.
_ozy_, I don't see the relevance there.
The relevance is that the perception check was rolled before the rogue got his surprise round in, and doing it that way avoid the double perception check, which I am sure GM's will hate more than they hate taking 10.
If the PCs can notice the goblins before that 30' combat zone 'declaration' than their perception rolls occur prior to combat.
Technically they do not. I have a list, quoted out of the crb, that tells me to determine awareness after initiative.
Combat does not start until the goblin attacks are initiated, or until the PCs notice the goblins and 'prepare' for the attack.
Not according to the list.
Do you roll initiative for the surprise round as soon as the PCs are within 200'? What if they notice the goblins and decide to leave before they are spotted. Does combat ever happen?
Technically Initiative is rolled and we go into combat rounds, even if combat never happens. Would not be the first time.
There is a discrepancy in the rules then since the perception check should be made before combat begins unless my example with two perception checks is the intention of the rules.
Not at all. This is not a discrepency. This is not an error. This is not the bug in the system that proves your point. You are insisting that you get a perception check at a certain time. I say you have it in the wrong spot. Putting it in the right spot instead of where you have it gives you ONE check. Not two. This argument is beyond silly.
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BNW, I'm pretty certain the Perception checks come before any initiative rolls, not after, as you portray in your example.
It's clearly shown in the Environments chapter, where Perception rolls are made at range (as determined by the environment) to see which group spots which first. It's kind of hard to have a combat if no one is aware of anyone else first.
Stealth and Detection in a Forest: In a sparse forest, the maximum distance at which a Perception check for detecting the nearby presence of others can succeed is 3d6 × 10 feet. In a medium forest, this distance is 2d8 × 10 feet, and in a dense forest it is 2d6 × 10 feet.
Because any square with undergrowth provides concealment, it's usually easy for a creature to use the Stealth skill in the forest. Logs and massive trees provide cover, which also makes hiding possible.
The background noise in the forest makes Perception checks that rely on sound more difficult, increasing the DC of the check by 2 per 10 feet, not 1.
Stealth and Detection in a Marsh: In a marsh, the maximum distance at which a Perception check for detecting the nearby presence of others can succeed is 6d6 × 10 feet. In a swamp, this distance is 2d8 × 10 feet.
Undergrowth and deep bogs provide plentiful concealment, so it's easy to use Stealth in a marsh.
Stealth and Detection in Hills: In gentle hills, the maximum distance at which a Perception check for detecting the nearby presence of others can succeed is 2d10 × 10 feet. In rugged hills, this distance is 2d6 × 10 feet.
Hiding in hills terrain can be difficult if there isn't undergrowth around. A hilltop or ridge provides enough cover to hide from anyone below the hilltop or ridge.
Stealth and Detection in Mountains: As a guideline, the maximum distance in mountain terrain at which a Perception check for detecting the nearby presence of others can succeed is 4d10 × 10 feet. Certain peaks and ridgelines afford much better vantage points, of course, and twisting valleys and canyons have much shorter spotting distances. Because there's little vegetation to obstruct line of sight, the specifics on your map are your best guide for the range at which an encounter could begin. As in hills terrain, a ridge or peak provides enough cover to hide from anyone below the high point.
It's easier to hear faraway sounds in the mountains. The DC of Perception checks that rely on sound increase by 1 per 20 feet between listener and source, not per 10 feet.
Stealth and Detection in the Desert: In general, the maximum distance in desert terrain at which a Perception check for detecting the nearby presence of others can succeed is 6d6 × 20 feet; beyond this distance, elevation changes and heat distortion in warm deserts makes sight-based Perception impossible. The presence of dunes in sandy deserts limits spotting distance to 6d6 × 10 feet. The scarcity of undergrowth or other elements that offer concealment or cover makes using Stealth more difficult.
Stealth and Detection in Plains: In plains terrain, the maximum distance at which a Perception check for detecting the nearby presence of others can succeed is 6d6 × 40 feet, although the specifics of your map might restrict line of sight. Cover and concealment are not uncommon, so a good place of refuge is often nearby, if not right at hand.
Stealth and Detection Underwater: How far you can see underwater depends on the water's clarity. As a guideline, creatures can see 4d8 × 10 feet if the water is clear, and 1d8 × 10 feet if it's murky. Moving water is always murky, unless it's in a particularly large, slow-moving river.
It's hard to find cover or concealment to hide underwater (except along the sea floor).
Invisibility: An invisible creature displaces water and leaves a visible, body-shaped “bubble” where the water was displaced. The creature still has concealment (20% miss chance), but not total concealment (50% miss chance).
Now, if you want to tie it back to the 'take 10' issue, on what basis would you not allow that guard to 'take 10' on his perception rolls, or really any skill roll? Does he suddenly become more clumsy or less aware when an invisible rogue is stalking him?
He is in immediate danger and therefore cannot take 10.
Bob, Taco bell manager, is aware that he cannot take 10. Vitruvious, aspiring guard captain, is not. A change was made to Bob, Not Vitruvious.
As a DM, I ruled last night that perception checks for surprise had to be rolled, reasoning that surprise was a distraction.
The player said that taking 10 does not involve any intention, so he could take 10 even if he doesn't know he needs to be actively looking for something.
What do you guys think?
Taking 10: When your character is not in immediate danger or distracted, you may choose to take 10.
1 When combat begins, all combatants roll initiative.
2 Determine which characters are aware of their opponents. These characters can act during a surprise round. If all the characters are aware of their opponents, proceed with normal rounds. See the surprise section for more information.
3 After the surprise round (if any), all combatants are ready to begin the first normal round of combat.
4 Combatants act in initiative order (highest to lowest).
5 When everyone has had a turn, the next round begins with the combatant with the highest initiative, and steps 3 and 4 repeat until combat ends.Note the order. Combat starts Then surprise is determined. If you are rolliing perception for a surprise round you are in combat and already have an initiative score. A monster sitting in the dark pondering if your heroes would make a good snack, while in combat, is pretty much the definition of immediate danger.
And yet, under the Surprise heading
If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard or move action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs.
You can't "start(ed) the battle aware of your (their) opponent" if you only figure out if you are aware after the battle has begun.
This would indicate you must be making Perception checks for awareness before combat has begun.
BNW, the Perception checks come before any initiative rolls, not after, as you portray in your example.
It's clearly listed in the Combat chapter and in the Environments chapter, where Perception rolls are made at range (as determined by the environment) to see which group spots which first.
Talk to the list then.
There is a discrepancy in the rules then since the perception check should be made before combat begins unless my example with two perception checks is the intention of the rules.Not at all. This is not a discrepency. This is not an error. This is not the bug in the system that proves your point. You are insisting that you get a perception check at a certain time. I say you have it in the wrong spot. Putting it in the right spot instead of where you have it gives you ONE check. Not two. This argument is beyond silly.
What is silly is you ignoring the perception check that is made before the enemy gets to see me.
You are trying to argue that just because the goblins wont attack me until I get to within 30 feet, that I can't notice them 50 feet out. I don't think there is any rule to support the goblins determining when that I must wait until I am withing 30 feet(insert other distance as needed) to make my perception check.
By the perception rules their distance is added to the stealth roll to determine the perception DC. <---I think you can agree with this.
By the rules if I can beat that DC I see them<------I am assuming you also agree with this.
So before we go any further tell me where my idea fails?
Talk to the list then.BNW, the Perception checks come before any initiative rolls, not after, as you portray in your example.
It's clearly listed in the Combat chapter and in the Environments chapter, where Perception rolls are made at range (as determined by the environment) to see which group spots which first.
That reply is pretty stupid, man. The list is not a living breathing intelligent entity, it is words written down that appear to be in conflict with other words written down and very specific comments from a dev (as well as a common sense).
You can't hide behind those words as your only defense and be taken at all seriously.
Ozy, BNW, I edited my post above. Please read it again.
BNW, I'm pretty certain the Perception checks come before any initiative rolls, not after, as you portray in your example.
It's clearly shown in the Environments chapter, where Perception rolls are made at range (as determined by the environment) to see which group spots which first. It's kind of hard to have a combat if no one is aware of anyone else first.
** spoiler omitted **...
Yeah, it was also in the old DMG. I was about to find it in PF, but I guess you found it first. Thanks. :)
Btw, your list is actually circular with regard to your argument. Look at item 1:
When combat begins, all combatants roll initiative.How do you we know when combat begins?
The DM says "Combat begins" or my usual announcement of "perception checks. Something wants to eat you".
How do you even know if there is a surprise round until you've rolled perception checks?
You don't and that really doesn't matter for initiative order.
What if all the NCPs and all the PCs fail their perception checks?
They'll break one of the rules for initiative stealth and auto spot someone at some point of their movement.
Are you just counting down initiatives until someone makes their perception roll?
Combatants who are unaware at the start of battle don't get to act in the surprise round.
If no perception rolls occur until after the 'start of battle' then ALL combatants are unaware, no?
At the start of combat and IN combat aren't mutually exclusive. Its silly to try to put something at zero time and tell me I have a paradox. The arrow does hit the target eventually Zeno.
What about the list? It looks to be an explanatory guide, not hard rules.
One must wonder how does combat happen until you know which group perceives the other first?
This is one of those somewhat gray areas in the rules, as others have mentioned.
If the party is approaching some hiding goblins, then I would give passive perception checks to detect them. They could take 10 on these rolls (and I'd be inclined to get their permission to do so beforehand to prevent possible metagaming). I'd actually have the goblins take 10 on their stealth too.
If the goblins are spotted, I would alert the spotting players but not initiate combat yet. I may also be inclined to give the goblins a Sense Motive check to determine if they're aware that they've been spotted. If combat is not immediately initiated at this point, the perceptive player will have a chance to alert their allies and no surprise round will take place. If combat does immediately start, then all aware combatants get to act in this surprise round.
However, if the party gets closer and the as-yet-unspotted goblins collectively jump out and attack, I would consider this an immediately dangerous situation and force everyone to roll their perception and stealth checks for determining surprise, and then go in to the surprise round as per normal.
Naturally, a key question is: how many passive perception checks does a player get if they are slowly approaching an ambush? Do they get an additional one for determining surprise? This is the gray area. I have explained above how I would handle the situation, but it's up to the GM to figure out a reasonable way to implement the rules, especially in borderline cases.
You should only get one free roll. Anything after that should cost you a move action. So let say the cleric notice the goblins. He might point it out to the party, but they may not roll high enough even with the 2nd checks. The 2nd check is also not really fair for the goblins, and I don't think the rule is intended to give out two checks. The rule is also not intended to deny you a check that you can make at 50 feet just because the goblins dont want to attack you until you get into within 30 feet.
You are trying to argue that just because the goblins wont attack me until I get to within 30 feet, that I can't notice them 50 feet out.
Huh what? No. I'm not. I'm saying that the goblins can't be spotted at 50 feet and then say "Oh right.. we were totally gonna try to spear him at 55 feet".
But what about "THE LIST (tm)"?! Surely you don't want to be in violation of "THE LIST (tm)"...
Its a rules discussion. Thats the rule.
If i try to point out the absurdity of declaring that something isn't an immediate danger because of zero time people make absurd attempts to appeals to raw.
You are trying to argue that just because the goblins wont attack me until I get to within 30 feet, that I can't notice them 50 feet out.
Huh what? No. I'm not. I'm saying that the goblins can't be spotted at 50 feet and then say "Oh right.. we were totally gonna try to spear him at 55 feet".
No sarcasm is needed. It is not helpful.
So just to be clear so we can move on a little further, I can spot the goblins at 50 feet out?
What about the list? It looks to be an explanatory guide, not hard rules.
One must wonder how does combat happen until you know which group perceives the other first?
Combat starts and then you try to figure that out.
If you want to use skr's example, note how it would break if the guard beat the perception check.
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The DM says "Combat begins" or my usual announcement of "perception checks. Something wants to eat you".
Doesn't this go against your golden "list"? If combat starts when you say "make perception checks" you are starting with number 2, not number 1 (roll initiative).
I'm fairly certain the "determine who is aware" AFTER initiative is rolled is more "determine whose initiative will be counted during the surprise round" not actually "make the checks now that initiative has been rolled and players have no idea what is going on to see if they know what is going on enough to act"
I kind of share your sentiments, but it's really not covered in the rules. If a party is approaching the goblins over a span of several minutes, it also makes little sense to check perception versus stealth at only a single point in time.
Note, that when the goblins spring their ambush, their effective stealth may be significantly lower due to various modifiers, which helps justify this additional check.
Jason suggest modifying the roll, not rolling again, but I do understand rerolls depending on the situation, but if this was taking place over rounds I suggest one roll. I also would not make a roll that was minutes out because nobody is likely to notice anyone. Even at 300 feat out that can be covered in one minute. I would wait until they were at the max distance to notice depending on the enviroment. As long as they stayed on course they should reach the enemy at one minute time or less, but if they strayed off course and came back then I would want new rolls, but I might just roll them secretly.
No sarcasm is needed. It is not helpful.You are trying to argue that just because the goblins wont attack me until I get to within 30 feet, that I can't notice them 50 feet out.
Huh what? No. I'm not. I'm saying that the goblins can't be spotted at 50 feet and then say "Oh right.. we were totally gonna try to spear him at 55 feet".
Its not sarcasm.
So just to be clear so we can move on a little further, I can spot the goblins at 50 feet out?
Yes.
Combat starts.
I technically need initiatives. Sometimes its helpful to have it if i need to deal with the minutia of 1 person acting at a time. Sometimes its just in the way.
Mini's go on the map. As a practical matter its the size of the table rather than the environments line of sight distances that determine maximum encounter distances.
Ambushers want to try to ambush something within X distance.
Everyone makes stealth and perception rolls. That will determine how close the groups get to each other before anything happens. Usually the party has at least one sir clanksalot. This devolves into a complicated who sees what when and what they do that usually winds up with about half of the party reacting, and half of the bad guys unable to see the party scout.
I am NOT trying to pull a fast one on the party, deny perception checks, or get the parties ambushed. I have the LOWEST percentage of surprise rounds on the party of any dm i've played with. PCs actually ahve gotten surprise rounds on the bad guys (gasp!) I start pfs sessions with "I assume you are semi competent quasi professional murderhobos who know how to loot a dungeon. Unless you need to move quickly or tell me otherwise, i assume you're going slow and looking around for things trying to kill you"
What about the list? It looks to be an explanatory guide, not hard rules.
One must wonder how does combat happen until you know which group perceives the other first?
Combat starts and then you try to figure that out.
If you want to use skr's example, note how it would break if the guard beat the perception check.
Yes! Perfect! If the guard beats the perception check, guess what:
YOU ROLL INITIATIVE!
Now, remind me, what happened right before that initiative roll? Oh yeah! A Perception roll!
And what would be different if you rolled initiative and then had the stealth roll?
Why don't the PCs get perception checks 1 second before that time? Or 10 seconds? Or 1 minute? Why is it that they ONLY get perception checks once combat has started?The DM says "Combat begins" or my usual announcement of "perception checks. Something wants to eat you".Btw, your list is actually circular with regard to your argument. Look at item 1:
When combat begins, all combatants roll initiative.How do you we know when combat begins?
When the PCs and NPCs start making perception checks is clear. They are made when the two groups come within a variable distance as determined by the terrain. That's RAW, no ifs ands or buts about it.
What about the list? It looks to be an explanatory guide, not hard rules.
One must wonder how does combat happen until you know which group perceives the other first?
Combat starts and then you try to figure that out.
If you want to use skr's example, note how it would break if the guard beat the perception check.
It says to roll initiative first as a time saving measure, I'm sure, and little else. Did you notice that you started with Step 2 in your own example?
The DM says "Combat begins" or my usual announcement of "perception checks. Something wants to eat you".Doesn't this go against your golden "list"? If combat starts when you say "make perception checks" you are starting with number 2, not number 1 (roll initiative).
I'm fairly certain the "determine who is aware" AFTER initiative is rolled is more "determine whose initiative will be counted during the surprise round" not actually "make the checks now that initiative has been rolled and players have no idea what is going on to see if they know what is going on enough to act"
Besides a possible argument for taking 10 I don't see how it matters if i get peoples perception checks then their initiatives or their initiatives and then their perception checks.
Except for weird corner cases, I suppose it doesn't BNW.
Yes.
Combat starts.
I technically need initiatives. Sometimes its helpful to have it if i need to deal with the minutia of 1 person acting at a time. Sometimes its just in the way.Mini's go on the map. As a practical matter its the size of the table rather than the environments line of sight distances that determine maximum encounter distances.
Ambushers want to try to ambush something within X distance.
Everyone makes stealth and perception rolls. That will determine how close the groups get to each other before anything happens. Usually the party has at least one sir clanksalot. This devolves into a complicated who sees what when and what they do that usually winds up with about half of the party reacting, and half of the bad guys unable to see the party scout.
I am NOT trying to pull a fast one on the party, deny perception checks, or get the parties ambushed. I have the LOWEST percentage of surprise rounds on the party of any dm i've played with. PCs actually ahve gotten surprise rounds on the bad guys (gasp!) I start pfs sessions with "I assume you are semi competent quasi professional murderhobos who know how to loot a dungeon. Unless you need to move quickly or tell me otherwise, i assume you're going slow and looking around for things trying to kill you"
Hold on we are getting ahead of ourselves for this conversation.
Now since my cleric(class does not matter) was 50 feet out and the goblins don't attack until someone is within 30 feet could the cleric have taken 10?
Just to be clear I was assuming everyone rolled a perception check, but only the cleric made a high enough roll at 50 feet out to notice anyone else.
Because people want to argue about the chicken and the egg for hours? BTW it's the egg. And perception first is the egg.
Its actually a timey whimey ball where the chicken is its own grandpa.
Besides a possible argument for taking 10 I don't see how it matters if i get peoples perception checks then their initiatives or their initiatives and then their perception checks.The DM says "Combat begins" or my usual announcement of "perception checks. Something wants to eat you".Doesn't this go against your golden "list"? If combat starts when you say "make perception checks" you are starting with number 2, not number 1 (roll initiative).
I'm fairly certain the "determine who is aware" AFTER initiative is rolled is more "determine whose initiative will be counted during the surprise round" not actually "make the checks now that initiative has been rolled and players have no idea what is going on to see if they know what is going on enough to act"
Not to be entirely un-snarky, but you were the one bowing down and praying to the "list" as THE all mighty RAW on when perception checks are made. Then you go against the list in your example. Just trying to point out that in your example, that's how most people do it: Perception, then Combat. Not "roll initiative for combat you may or may not be aware of, now that we know the order people go in, let's find out who actually gets to go."
Hold on we are getting ahead of ourselves for this conversation.
Now since my cleric(class does not matter) was 50 feet out and the goblins don't attack until someone is within 30 feet could the cleric have taken 10?
No.
1) 50 feet away from a goblin ambush is still immediate danger as far as I'm concerned.
2) You've hit the timey whimey ball there. You're only not getting a spear in your stomach because you're 50 feet out. And you're only 50 feet out because of the results of your perception check. You can't have the check for immediate danger be the thing that keeps you out of immediate danger.
Not to be entirely un-snarky, but you were the one bowing down and praying to the "list" as THE all mighty RAW
I was not.
I have a bad back. Bowing down and praying isn't a realistic possibility.
The granite shrine I carved to it on the other hand is GORGEOUS. :)
Then you go against the list in your example. Just trying to point out that in your example, that's how most people do it: Perception, then Combat. Not "roll initiative for combat you may or may not be aware of, now that we know the order people go in, let's find out who actually gets to go."
Right, and in most cases it doesn't matter. The ONLy case i can think of for it mattering is for take 10, and then only if someone insists that the only definition of immediate danger is in combat.