Yeah, I was mostly going with the tropes version of "The Hero". I'm not the OP, but I was wondering which class(es) most embody this trope in Pathfinder. The Inquisitor and Bard hit most of the points. The Magus is close, but no healing. The Warpriest just doesn't have enough skills.
If someone comes to me telling "i wanna be THE HERO!!!!!" i tell him
"this is a cooperative game between X persone, each of them contibuiting to build a common story where everyone can be the hero of his dreams. So, you will be A hero, like the other, but there are still other people as much important as you here"
If they insinst, i show them the door. If they keep insinsting, i shove them through the door. He better pray someone opened it in the meantime.
At my table, no primadonna are allowed.
Magus can actually heal-- they get Infernal Healing & Greater.
Bard is pretty much the most blatant way, but frankly I find the notion of pitching a class as "The Hero Class" silly. The hero's class is whatever the person who acts like the hero wrote down on his character sheet.
Of course, I was just using the term as an example of the 'jack of all trades'...without the usual vaguely derogatory perceptions that makes people think..... well......"bard" (with a sneering tone, like "b-AAAARD?!")
If we are using the TVtropes entry, then my discussion more pertains to the 'jack of all stats' bullet point on the tvtropes page.
Magus can actually heal-- they get Infernal Healing & Greater.
Bard is pretty much the most blatant way, but frankly I find the notion of pitching a class as "The Hero Class" silly. The hero's class is whatever the person who acts like the hero wrote down on his character sheet.
That's just arguing the definition. "The Hero" trope is a widely recognized thing. It's obvious that almost any character could be a "hero" of one definition or the other. No one is really arguing against that. But being a hero isn't the same as being "The Hero".
Although I will concede the OP doesn't seem to be using the trope. He just had his own definition of "Hero" that he didn't have sources to back up.
What if the other players want to play the sidekicks? The supporting cast can be more interesting than the Hero.
That still doesn't work.
First, someone with that kind of attitude is not going to be healty for the table wheter the other have agreed or not with the basic premise.Second, when i'm mastering, you do stupid shit, and you die. I take extra care into making sure that there is a way out of every situation, and also roll behind the screen so I can cheat out of players getting OHK by random crits. But if you charge down the ogre camp at level 2, i'm gonna squash you like a bug. Being an hero doesn't mean being an idiot. If I hint you that the bad guy is out of your league, you better go find some help or come up with a plan cuz i'm not gonna pull punches if you decide to just charge him. I have learned in my 15 year of gaming that people idea of "being THE hero" with the capital THE is not compatible with this kind of approach.
Sounds like you are talking about "Idiot Hero". Link
I'm pretty sure I said "charge down an ogre camp" not "try to bluff your way through an ogre camp with some ingenius thinkg and clever leverage of ogre's most know weakness"
And yes, most of my reasoning is based around the fact that if someone comes to a 5 player game asking to be THE hero, he's exactly the kind of stupid hero arguing that's going to argue about "screen time". And before someone ask, yes, I've got some direct experience on that.
That's a bunch of description, but completely lacks definition. If I say "I want to play the hero," I'm not talking about a guy who wears blue or red and is the primary love interest of the group's token female character. I don't think anyone is. The actual heroic archetypes are less superficial.The OP specifically went on to define his version of hero "as the trope". That would be this.
His analysis of what that trope means and TVTropes' analysis of what that trope means are two wildly different things, mind. Hence my giganto-post.
I think you lack understanding on the definition of tropes. In any case,, The Hero is commonly accepted as one specific archetype of hero, with his primary definition not being about what he can do, but how important he is for the story as a whole. He is the centerpiece that makes the story go forward. In that page you find out listed many ways in witch such importance can be emphasized by the autor. A generic character respecting this trope does not have to adhere to all of them.
The OP is just saying that if someone wants to be "THE hero" it's easiest to just tell them to be superman, because that's probably what they had in mind anyway. It's not terrible advice for achieving what the player wants, but I really don't like playing with superman types.
"THE hero" to me is right up there with the guy that falls for the first female NPC he sees and the caster who wants to be a god on the list of most annoying characters. They usually wind up never wanting to do anything even slightly morally gray, trying to intimidate the more morally questionable characters into behaving themselves, and then getting beheaded by the party psycho.
Those traits have nothing to do with archetypes at all. Nothing on that page ever actually describes an archetype. The page is completely sodding useless.
What do you think an archetype is?
|
One PC being The Hero doesn't mean that the rest of the group is the cheering section.
Captain America seems like a pretty good example. He's the leader of the Avengers, the one with the firmest moral principles, the guy who tries to get everyone to work together and calls out the orders. However, the other Avengers get lots of screen time, both action scenes and character development, to the point that someone on the first page asked who the hero in the movie was. Answer: they are all heroes, but Cap is The Hero archetype.
There's a couple things you can do to make this work.
1) Plan OOC, orders IC. Your character may be the party leader, but that doesn't mean you get to tell the other players what to do - if other players tell you what kind of orders they'd like your character to give their character, it keeps everyone at the table on even footing even if one character is in charge.
2) Delegate well and broadly. Your teammates are highly skilled - if you set an objective they should be able to figure out how to achieve that objective. Micromanaging is disrespectful.
3) Be ready to support your teammates. There's a couple spots in Age of Ultron where Cap and Thor perform maneuvers using their shield and hammer - with Thor swinging the hammer as Cap braces the shield. There's another scene where Cap acts as a distraction. The Hero cares less about getting the glory than about getting it done, and sometimes that means that he's making the assist. This is why I think the bard is a pretty good fit for the role - the class may have a lot of support abilities but they're largely about inspiring and coordinating others (aka Leadership) and the class can be competent in melee (not usually as strong as a martial, but Cap isn't exactly the heavy hitter that Thor or the Hulk are).
4) Don't steal their thunder. As an extension of the above point, if you know that another PC has a particular skill, don't try to beat them at that skill. And while you can help with their personal objectives don't make it about you. Again from Age of Ultron, there's a scene where everyone is trying to lift Mjolnir and Cap moves it slightly, then stands back. Given that in the comics Cap is one of the few people who can actually wield the hammer, I wonder if he could have picked it up, but chose not to knowing that it was important to Thor. (This may not be what the moviemakers intended but it's still a good illustration of the mindset of The Hero as a team player.)
If someone were to ask me how to be 'The Hero' in a game, I'd rather ask them just how they define heroism. There's a good chance you might get a Superman wannabe, yes. This might take some explaining, and using the Avengers as an example of a party might be a good idea. Remember, never forget your friends. And if the would-be player doesn't want to see the party as friends, then tabletop RPG might not be the right fit.
Another example, another mythos. Twilight Sparkle was, while not overtly hostile, generally had no time or interest in other people around her. Then a (simplified, the source material isn't targeted for too much complexity) journey later to see how that works, and she's a hero. I'm sure there's a parody somewhere featuring her blowing off the would-be friends and dooming the world.
As far as class? I wouldn't call either Captain America or Twilight Sparkle a bard. But yes, they do pretty much glue their bands together. And they can still be the peak expert at one field, but still know that they can't go it alone.
I think that last part there is the most important. The hero knows he or she is NOT alone out there. Well, a good one will. The others end up mocked in bad reviews on writing boards.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If someone were to ask me how to be 'The Hero' in a game, I'd rather ask them just how they define heroism.
It is a harmless enchantment spell that lasts for 10 min/level, and gives a +2 morale bonus to attacks, saves, and skills.
|
|
As far as class? I wouldn't call either Captain America or Twilight Sparkle a bard.
The shield champion brawler is pretty obviously designed with Cap's fighting style in mind, though unfortunately it isn't compatible with Exemplar, which best represents his leadership ability. I think others have suggested variants of paladin or fighter.
Twilight's almost certainly a wizard or arcanist, with a pseudodragon familiar.
Bard's a good class for The Hero but any class can fill the role.