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From what I remember from the 2E days, (and it's not a lot- I was pretty young) is that Wizards were very weak at low levels, but once they reached higher levels, they were insanely powerful- to the point there was nothing remotely resembling balance.
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If Baldur's Gate taught me anything, it's that it's like first or second level spells. So rejoice, we've come a long way.
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This might be slightly off-topic, but does anyone remember that box set, I think it might have been a Forgotten Realms thing, where they introduced 10th level spells? Wish I could remember more details, but I think it was set during one of the ancient fallen empires.
I think it was a set that let you play in ancient Cormanthor, or Myth Drannor- when magic was even MORE powerful. I think it was that bonkers level of magic, that made the empire fall.
I also remember in Dark Sun, if you became a level 20 Wizard, AND a level 20 Psion (or whatever they called it back then), you could cast magic above 9th. It also started slowly turning you into a dragon!
I worked in a hobby/gaming shop for seven years, back when I was a young'un, so I got to spend hours looking through all that stuff when the store was empty! :)
I think you're thinking Dragon Kings in the Dark Sun setting. Not sure that was a box set though. Just a hardbound. This would have been TSR book 2408.
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I think you're thinking Dragon Kings in the Dark Sun setting. Not sure that was a box set though. Just a hardbound. This would have been TSR book 2408.
I pretty sure you're right- the Dark Sun part of my post, was not a box set, but holy balls, it was a cool book. Mechanical clunk aside, D&D 2ED was creatively amazing!
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I think it was a set that let you play in ancient Cormanthor, or Myth Drannor- when magic was even MORE powerful. I think it was that bonkers level of magic, that made the empire fall.
You mean Netheril: Empire of Magic, from what I can tell, which means that Kalindlara is correct. That was the only "time" when magic was "even more powerful"* than in the AD&D era (she capped spells at ninth level instead of unlimited upward expansion). It might have mentioned playing in other empires that existed at the time, I dunno.
That's the only think I can think of, at any rate.
* And, in fact, it's a plot point that at the end of that era, when Karsus cast his most powerful spell - a the 12th level spell that Kalindlara is referring to, called Karsus' Avatar that stole the power of the goddess of magic Mystryl; because it was too much for him to handle, the power destroyed Karsus (turning him into the large red rock the "Karse Stone") and destroyed his empire by causing magic to fail and thus the flying cities to fall. As this occurred, Mystryl sacrificed herself to sever Karsus' connection with magic and to reincarnate as a young woman who was, prior to becoming the new incarnation of the goddess of magic now known as Mystra, comatose and (from what I can gather) "vegetative".
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I think it was a set that let you play in ancient Cormanthor, or Myth Drannor- when magic was even MORE powerful. I think it was that bonkers level of magic, that made the empire fall.You mean Netheril: Empire of Magic, from what I can tell, which means that Kalindlara is correct. That was the only "time" when magic was "even more powerful"* than in the AD&D era (she capped spells at ninth level instead of unlimited upward expansion). It might have mentioned playing in other empires that existed at the time, I dunno.
That's the only think I can think of, at any rate.
* And, in fact, it's a plot point that at the end of that era, when Karsus cast his most powerful spell -
athe 12th level spell that Kalindlara is referring to, called Karsus' Avatar that stole the power of the goddess of magic Mystryl; because it was too much for him to handle, the power destroyed Karsus (turning him into the large red rock the "Karse Stone") and destroyed his empire by causing magic to fail and thus the flying cities to fall. As this occurred, Mystryl sacrificed herself to sever Karsus' connection with magic and to reincarnate as a young woman who was, prior to becoming the new incarnation of the goddess of magic now known as Mystra, comatose and (from what I can gather) "vegetative".
Yes! Thank you! You and Kalindlara are right on. That is the box set I was trying to remember. Crazy-powerful magic!
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I think it was a set that let you play in ancient Cormanthor, or Myth Drannor- when magic was even MORE powerful. I think it was that bonkers level of magic, that made the empire fall.You mean Netheril: Empire of Magic, from what I can tell, which means that Kalindlara is correct. That was the only "time" when magic was "even more powerful"* than in the AD&D era (she capped spells at ninth level instead of unlimited upward expansion). It might have mentioned playing in other empires that existed at the time, I dunno.
That's the only think I can think of, at any rate.
* And, in fact, it's a plot point that at the end of that era, when Karsus cast his most powerful spell -
athe 12th level spell that Kalindlara is referring to, called Karsus' Avatar that stole the power of the goddess of magic Mystryl; because it was too much for him to handle, the power destroyed Karsus (turning him into the large red rock the "Karse Stone") and destroyed his empire by causing magic to fail and thus the flying cities to fall. As this occurred, Mystryl sacrificed herself to sever Karsus' connection with magic and to reincarnate as a young woman who was, prior to becoming the new incarnation of the goddess of magic now known as Mystra, comatose and (from what I can gather) "vegetative".
Until he "came back" as a vestige, anyway. ^_^
In earlier editions at what point/level did spellcaster start to be considered powerful?
Then the changes to 3.x and PF, did spellcasters become powerful earlier then in 1e/2e?
i think it's around about the same level, however I think the expectation of reaching that level was much less. One of the big differences I find with AD&D games and PF is the speed of levelling.
I've never played 2E, if that makes a difference, but in 1E/0E I think magic users begin to be the ultimate PCs around 7th level. It just takes (us, at least), much longer to get there.
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In earlier editions at what point/level did spellcaster start to be considered powerful?
Then the changes to 3.x and PF, did spellcasters become powerful earlier then in 1e/2e?
i think it's around about the same level, however I think the expectation of reaching that level was much less. One of the big differences I find with AD&D games and PF is the speed of levelling.
I've never played 2E, if that makes a difference, but in 1E/0E I think magic users begin to be the ultimate PCs around 7th level. It just takes (us, at least), much longer to get there.
Yes. Another of the big changes that made spellcaster more powerful in 3.x and beyond, was the change in how initiative worked for spells. In 1e/2e you rolled initiative then subtracted the casting time and you were vulnerable to interruption during the time you started the spell and the time it went off, any amount of damage would interrupt you.