Starting a new campaign with commonplace guns -implications?

[Carla the Profane]

Hi guys! Im starting a new campaign soon and am considering making it a 'wild west' type game, situated in a 'waterworld' type game world.

Paizo srd:Firearms wrote:

Commonplace Guns: While still expensive and tricky to wield, early firearms are readily available. Instead of requiring the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat, all firearms are martial weapons. Early firearms and their ammunition cost 25% of the amounts listed in this book, but advanced firearms and their ammunition are still rare and cost the full price to purchase or craft.

This would of course have huge implications for the game, and I hope you guys can help me avoid common pitfalls. After a little thought this is a short list of things I came up with by myself:

• Touch AC. This will make me seriously consider what enemies to use. Dragons for example have abysmal touch AC and will thus be much less strong.
• CR. Low level enemies will have guns. High level enemies will have guns. Nuns will have guns. How do I keep the challenge appropriate?(Assuming my party will use a combination of magic and guns)
• Gear usefullness. A +2 holy greatsword will be worth less than a +1 holy revolver, but the cost is not balanced. Should I change item costs?
• Class imbalance. Since guns are martial weapons, I think I will ban the gunslinger class and see what my players will come up with. I feel like there's unforeseen complications here, but I am not sure.

What do you think?

[Claxon]

1) Guns are cheap and so is the ammunition
2) Virtually everyone can use them
3) There isn't much of a reason to not wield a gun
4) Armor /Natural is worthless

You really have to focus on using a lot of humanoid NPCs which will use guns as well.

Honestly, if you want to run a Wild West game, can I suggest you just play Deadlands Reloaded?

Banning the gunslinger is kind of a slap in the face to the martial characters, because they're the best at using guns. Outside of archetypes that are designed to use guns well, most classes are not suited for it very much.

Meanwhile, casters are not so meaningfully affected by these changes.

[Bob Bob Bob]

Honestly? It's not going to change much about the fundamental assumptions of the game until you include advanced firearms (and that's only because of hitting touch AC at five range increments). Oh, and I would strongly recommend against including double weapons.

The best range increment on an early firearm is 50 feet (for the double hackbut, not a likely choice) or more likely 40 feet for the musket. That's charge range, even for a person in plate mail. If you're not in that range you're shooting at regular AC (until you get distance on the weapon, blah blah blah). Bows still hit 110 feet away with no penalties. Firearms would be a superior short-range option but a terrible primary weapon until you could take the feats, magic it up, etc. so it doesn't constantly explode on you while you're standing within a single move of something that will destroy you in melee combat. But, again, since the advantage is in point blank combat if the pistol is a backup weapon... you could just melee them instead. So only ranged characters/switch hitters would use guns, as an alternative to using a sword.

The touch AC thing is an issue, the best houserule I saw for this was using flat-footed instead (the problem comes from AD&D and lower scaling of attack bonuses and AC, when they moved everything to 3.0 and much larger attack scaling they had to "balance" monsters again and did it by slapping on piles and piles of natural armor). It changes the fluff from "nothing can stop a bullet" to "bullets are so fast you can't dodge them but they still have to hit a weak spot".

CR doesn't change in the slightest. As long as you don't allow Trench Fighter it requires 5 levels of Gunslinger for Dex to damage, Deadly Aim scales based on BAB, otherwise the gun is stuck at base damage dice and nothing else. A bunch of attacks for 1d12? I could already do that, it was called a greataxe and came with 1 1/2 Str for free. Plus that whole explodes if you roll badly thing.

A +1 holy revolver is way less useful than +3 greatsword to a standard barbarian. Or anyone who dropped Dex, or who took Power Attack instead of Deadly Aim, I'm sure the list continues. If you're concerned that advanced firearms are too good, did you miss the part where "advanced firearms and their ammunition are still rare"? Because that's the balancing factor.

Banning the gunslinger will probably just encourage the archetypes of other classes that get access to gunslinger deeds (if anyone actually wants to use guns). Because without Quick Clear your gun is a giant ticking time bomb you'll have to stop using at some point, which is a terrible thing for a primary weapon.

You want my suggestions? You need to decide whether you want more wild west or waterworld. For wild west change guns to target flat-footed AC, use Guns Everywhere, and that's it. That'll get you ubiquitous guns (as they're now a superior option) but also give you the classic "plate of steel stopped the bullet". People will have to balance heavy plate mail (and drowning) versus stopping a bullet. For waterworld use Emerging Guns and make armor a rare thing. This will quickly push people into non-armor defenses (or archetypes, etc.) while keeping guns fairly rare. Waterworld was basically a post-apocalyptic movie, everything was just scavenged from the previous world and nobody understood how it worked. Guns weren't common because nobody could make them anymore (at least, as anything but cobbled together junk). I suppose you could also ban all bows and crossbows and the sling but that sounds... well, just terrible, and like you're ramming guns into the players hands and insisting they use them. Because as a dedicated ranged character it would be way easier to arrow someone to death and keep a backup musket/rifle if they're too hard to hit than to try to make the musket a useful primary weapon. Also, final point for this, powder gets screwed up if it gets wet, bows and arrows do not. Bit of an issue on a waterworld.

[thunderbeard]

If you ban gunslingers, most characters won't be able to do any real damage with the things—without + Dex to Damage, Bows' ability to add Strength bonuses will make players seriously think about choosing between guns and bows.

...Except for Savage Technologist Barbarians. Keep an eye out for those guys, they're pretty dangerous with the right firearms.

@BobBobBob: Really? The Double Hackbut is one of my favorite weapons. Sure, you need a cohort or Improved Familiar to set it up effectively, but an oversized hackbut gets pretty brutal with Vital Strike and Enlarge Person.

[James F.D. Graham]

I am currently co-leading a western themed campaign where we took firearm availability to the max - advanced guns are everywhere and considered the norm.

It certainly changes the way the game is played. For instance, combat isn't really about melee fighting any more - it's all run for cover and shoot outs. Lots of holding actions until the other guy peeks out to take a shot and then shooting first. Which is very much in line with the western feel we were going for.

We were a little worried about the lethality of it all what with x4 crits and resolving around touch AC pretty much all the time so we fiddled with the rules a bit:

Characters have a 'firearm AC' that starts as their touch AC as per normal but can be modified in various ways.
- Anything that grants a force based armour bonus (mage armour, bracers of armour, etc) still works.
- Classes that normally gained proficiency with medium or heavy armours now get a +1 or +2 'grit' bonus to their firearm AC. Same with light and heavy shields.
- Some special materials like adamantine or mithral are considered 'bullet-proof' so armour made from them apply.

The only other real piece of advice I can offer is to track ammo.
I know a lot of people don't bother tracking mundane arrows, bolts, sling stones, or what have you in a standard fantasy campaign and that's fine - I don't really either but I think it is an important part of firearms to keep track of how many shots a character has left.

Hope this helps.

[Purple Dragon Knight]

Carla the Profane wrote:

• Touch AC. This will make me seriously consider what enemies to use. Dragons for example have abysmal touch AC and will thus be much less strong.
• CR. Low level enemies will have guns. High level enemies will have guns. Nuns will have guns. How do I keep the challenge appropriate?(Assuming my party will use a combination of magic and guns)
• Gear usefullness. A +2 holy greatsword will be worth less than a +1 holy revolver, but the cost is not balanced. Should I change item costs?
• Class imbalance. Since guns are martial weapons, I think I will ban the gunslinger class and see what my players will come up with. I feel like there's unforeseen complications here, but I am not sure.

What do you think?

• Touch AC. This is why your world should have no dragons, or a very few left that are in hiding... your world may have done away with heavy armor as well, for the same reasons, so fighters all have the lore warden archetype and other ones that take away heavy armor, or they all gain dodge or toughness instead of heavy armor...
• CR. I don't see a big difference with CRs...
• Gear usefullness. Other than the disappearance of heavy armor and the prominence of amulets of bullet protection, I would say nothing is changed here... greatswords will still be very bad next to someone with a gun... :)
• Class imbalance. Don't ban anything. Especially not gunslingers, as they should now be commonplace as well... consider banning anything to do with heavy armor or shield builds... for cultural relevance. Remember that trench fighter uses guns other classes can similarly incorporate guns in their build...

[Carla the Profane]

Allright thanks guys, I think I can work with this.

[Ashram]

James F.D. Graham wrote:

I am currently co-leading a western themed campaign where we took firearm availability to the max - advanced guns are everywhere and considered the norm.

It certainly changes the way the game is played. For instance, combat isn't really about melee fighting any more - it's all run for cover and shoot outs. Lots of holding actions until the other guy peeks out to take a shot and then shooting first. Which is very much in line with the western feel we were going for.

We were a little worried about the lethality of it all what with x4 crits and resolving around touch AC pretty much all the time so we fiddled with the rules a bit:

Characters have a 'firearm AC' that starts as their touch AC as per normal but can be modified in various ways.
- Anything that grants a force based armour bonus (mage armour, bracers of armour, etc) still works.
- Classes that normally gained proficiency with medium or heavy armours now get a +1 or +2 'grit' bonus to their firearm AC. Same with light and heavy shields.
- Some special materials like adamantine or mithral are considered 'bullet-proof' so armour made from them apply.

The only other real piece of advice I can offer is to track ammo.
I know a lot of people don't bother tracking mundane arrows, bolts, sling stones, or what have you in a standard fantasy campaign and that's fine - I don't really either but I think it is an important part of firearms to keep track of how many shots a character has left.

Hope this helps.

Adamantine being a bullet-resistant (Because nothing is bullet-proof ;)) material is definitely a neat idea, until some rich wiseass with a gun starts making armor-piercing bullets from adamantine.

[Weirdo]

Currently playing in a guns everywhere game. All 4 PCs and several major NPCs have firearms. Hasn't changed much. The party is still pretty melee-focused. The guns make a decent ranged backup but as mentioned in the thread you generally need to be a gunslinger to get good damage out of them. Our touch ACs are targeted more but it hasn't put a crimp on our heavy armour wearing paladin.

Though we did have a rather challenging encounter with someone who I think was a ninja - kept turning invisible and then shooting us with ranged sneak attacks that landed reliably (where arrows would not have). Poisoned bullets, too.

That was about the only fight with a ranged combatant (guns or otherwise) where we couldn't easily close and return worse than we got.

[lemeres]

Depending on how you redo your encounter design...it might actually end up MORE melee friendly.

If you spend all your time picking enemies with good touch AC and arming them with equipment that defends against guns....then their total AC will look relatively week when it comes against a greatsword.

But that is only if you take your design from one extreme (high armor/natural armor, low touch AC) to the other (high touch, relatively low armor/natural armor). And that is not necessarily a bad thing, since it can lead to some interesting mix of builds, and highly encourages switch hitting (which was a fairly common thing up until the era after WWI). Maybe encourage this by using a more advanced bayonet design (the current in game one is based of VERY early plug bayonets that have to go directly in the barrel- maybe use the later designs that attach it to the bottom of the barrel to encourage some switch hitting)

Anyway, for monster design- focus more on 'mystical' and high speed/reflex monsters with a focus on dodge, competence, and insight bonuses. Have psychics that see the bullets coming, have arcane steampunk ninjas that dodge bullets, have insane monks that grab bullets from the air. You can give yourself a cool flavor with stuff with that.

Terrain concerns- compared to the normal campaign, the heavy reliance on ranged weapons means that cover is essential. Which means you have to put a lot of planning into map design. ...yay.

[Agent Pierce Brosnan]

@thunderbeard: enlarge person doesn't help someone with a ranged weapon, given the -1 size penalty to hit, it actually hurts quite a bit.

[lemeres]

Agent Pierce Brosnan wrote:

@thunderbeard: enlarge person doesn't help someone with a ranged weapon, given the -1 size penalty to hit, it actually hurts quite a bit.

Don't forget the dex penalty. So that is a total of -2 to hit.

plus, I am not sure it even works for the suggested build. Doesn't ammo go back to original size when it leaves your person?

[Kalindlara]

lemeres wrote:

Agent Pierce Brosnan wrote:

@thunderbeard: enlarge person doesn't help someone with a ranged weapon, given the -1 size penalty to hit, it actually hurts quite a bit.

Don't forget the dex penalty. So that is a total of -2 to hit.

plus, I am not sure it even works for the suggested build. Doesn't ammo go back to original size when it leaves your person?

Thrown weapons do. Ammo doesn't matter - it's the size of the gun/bow/crossbow that matters. :)

[lemeres]

Kalindlara wrote:

lemeres wrote:

Agent Pierce Brosnan wrote:

@thunderbeard: enlarge person doesn't help someone with a ranged weapon, given the -1 size penalty to hit, it actually hurts quite a bit.

Don't forget the dex penalty. So that is a total of -2 to hit.

plus, I am not sure it even works for the suggested build. Doesn't ammo go back to original size when it leaves your person?

Thrown weapons do. Ammo doesn't matter - it's the size of the gun/bow/crossbow that matters. :)

Nope. I remembered correctly.

CRB wrote:

Any enlarged item that leaves an enlarged creature's possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size. This means that thrown and projectile weapons deal their normal damage.

[Kalindlara]

lemeres wrote:

Kalindlara wrote:

lemeres wrote:

Agent Pierce Brosnan wrote:

@thunderbeard: enlarge person doesn't help someone with a ranged weapon, given the -1 size penalty to hit, it actually hurts quite a bit.

Don't forget the dex penalty. So that is a total of -2 to hit.

plus, I am not sure it even works for the suggested build. Doesn't ammo go back to original size when it leaves your person?

Thrown weapons do. Ammo doesn't matter - it's the size of the gun/bow/crossbow that matters. :)

Nope. I remembered correctly.

CRB wrote:

Any enlarged item that leaves an enlarged creature's possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size. This means that thrown and projectile weapons deal their normal damage.

How strange. You're correct about enlarge person. Reduce person, however, says otherwise:

Reduce Person wrote:

This means that thrown weapons deal their normal damage (projectiles deal damage based on the size of the weapon that fired them).

I'm more familiar with reduce person, hence my previous statement. :)

[lemeres]

Kalindlara wrote:

How strange. You're correct about enlarge person. Reduce person, however, says otherwise:

Reduce Person wrote:

This means that thrown weapons deal their normal damage (projectiles deal damage based on the size of the weapon that fired them).

I'm more familiar with reduce person, hence my previous statement. :)

Well, while strange from a consistency stand point, it is obvious why from a balance stand point.

For ranged characters, reduce person is a mostly a big buff (+2 to hit, +2 to AC, minor penalty to str, which might not matter for some weapons like crossbows, and particularly so for guns backed by dex to damage). Thus, they want projectile weapons (which are the msot powerful form of ranged weapons) to pay at least some price (reduced damage from lower damage dice). Thrown weapons are given a pass because...they needed it. At least before swashbuckler came around.

They put different language in enlarge person to stop the exact kind of vital strike build suggested. Enlarge person is mostly meant to be a melee buff, and it was not meant to give benefits to ranged combat. So they put the more disadvantageous wording in there for that reason.

Overall- archery is strong in this game, with the whole 'full attack from anywhere' mechanics. It doesn't need that much more support from low level spells.

[Kalindlara]

I figured as much myself.

I think the spells could use a little revision, if for no other reason than to make clear that this is a function of the spell, not a standard rule about size changes. :)

[Gamerskum]

If firearms are common place I would use the AC as DR rules from Ultimate Combat.