So, I was at a con this weekend and completely missed Baltimore going up in flames apparently. What happened?
And as has been the case in most of these incidents, the real violence is being caused by those who came to the city from somewhere else. The locals are seriously upset, but given that the mayor of Baltimore is black they think that they can get what they need through peaceful protest and pressuring the system instead of trying to overthrow the system.
Details have been somewhat sketchy but it appears that what brought the deceased to police attention originally was simply that he ran from the police for no obvious reason. If that is true then one is left with the impression that there may be at least some police officers who are functioning more like predators in the wild moving through a herd of herbivores than like law enforcement or peace officers.
Regardless, all the problems that people have been pointing out in terms of police versus either black violence or police versus any citizen violence don't hold a candle to the truly incredible amount of black on black violence that seems to get taken as a matter of course and nonchalantly swept under the rug.
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And as has been the case in most of these incidents, the real violence is being caused by those who came to the city from somewhere else.
They've said that before but the arrest records showed something different.
Regardless, all the problems that people have been pointing out in terms of police versus either black violence or police versus any citizen violence don't hold a candle to the truly incredible amount of black on black violence that seems to get taken as a matter of course and nonchalantly swept under the rug.
The difference being that the police violence is coming from the people we pay to stop the violence. We allegedly have some control over our own government and they're doing that violence in all of our names, and then halting the protests that attempt to stop them. I don't want to use more of the police to stop black on black violence until they can be trusted not to merely replace it with blue on black violence.
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And as has been the case in most of these incidents, the real violence is being caused by those who came to the city from somewhere else.
And I'm guessing that like in most of these incidences, that is a lie told for propaganda reasons.
Check out the Miami Model of protest policing. The propaganda always includes some form of, "terrorists/violent protesters coming" vs "well trained officers". Anytime there is a large scale protest event, they bring out the same tired lines about "outside anarchists bent on destruction". Again and again, it just isn't true.
The police will get out of control, violate peoples rights, and lose the lawsuit that follows. Speaking of lawsuits, check out how much Baltimore has had to pay out due to police misconduct and abuse of power. The locals are very upset, and they have very good reason to be outraged at the police.
And as has been the case in most of these incidents, the real violence is being caused by those who came to the city from somewhere else.They've said that before but the arrest records showed something different.
I would like to see some documentation on that if you could provide it.
Regardless, all the problems that people have been pointing out in terms of police versus either black violence or police versus any citizen violence don't hold a candle to the truly incredible amount of black on black violence that seems to get taken as a matter of course and nonchalantly swept under the rug.The difference being that the police violence is coming from the people we pay to stop the violence. We allegedly have some control over our own government and they're doing that violence in all of our names, and then halting the protests that attempt to stop them. I don't want to use more of the police to stop black on black violence until they can be trusted not to merely replace it with blue on black violence.
Never said that police violence wasn't a problem. We're just comparing the relative scale of the problems.
I would like to see some documentation on that if you could provide it
Coitenly. Huh. Wow. This was even more relevant than i thought. They're caught lying in real time pretty much...
Given that I have work every week just outside the Baltimore city limits, I've been eyeing the unrest part of this tragic occurrance.
Before the big protests hit the streets today, the city officials were attempting to get answers to provide to the citizens of Baltimore.
Edit: aaaaand there's now a state of emergency, complete with activation of the Maryland National Guard.
Joy ... [/sarcasm]
* Gets the popcorn for things in this thread. Popcorn for the events in Baltimore would just be tacky.
At the least.
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* Gets the popcorn for things in this thread. Popcorn for the events in Baltimore would just be tacky.
... Why not? There's enough heat goin' round to pop it.
Seriously though, America's going to hell in a hand basket, and we're just grinnin' and laughin' the whole damn way 'cause nobody gives a rat's donkey unless it's happening to them. Sad part is, as fake as our freedoms are these days, they're still better than the rest of the freakin' world I could try and immigrate to.... Maybe I'll move into a shack in the middle of nowhere with a trusty shot gun and blame everything on the guv'ment. Seems a whole hell of a lot safer and secure than just about everywhere else these days.
Seriously though, America's going to hell in a hand basket, and we're just grinnin' and laughin' the whole damn way 'cause nobody gives a rat's donkey unless it's happening to them. Sad part is, as fake as our freedoms are these days, they're still better than the rest of the freakin' world I could try and immigrate to.
In what year was this not the case?
Regardless, all the problems that people have been pointing out in terms of police versus either black violence or police versus any citizen violence don't hold a candle to the truly incredible amount of black on black violence that seems to get taken as a matter of course and nonchalantly swept under the rug.
Black on black violence is criminal just like cop on black violence is [should be]
Only who is going to report a crime and cooperate with the police if they'll arrest/beat/shoot you over nothing.
Glad I moved back to Florida.
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* Gets the popcorn for things in this thread. Popcorn for the events in Baltimore would just be tacky.... Why not? There's enough heat goin' round to pop it.
Seriously though, America's going to hell in a hand basket, and we're just grinnin' and laughin' the whole damn way 'cause nobody gives a rat's donkey unless it's happening to them. Sad part is, as fake as our freedoms are these days, they're still better than the rest of the freakin' world I could try and immigrate to.... Maybe I'll move into a shack in the middle of nowhere with a trusty shot gun and blame everything on the guv'ment. Seems a whole hell of a lot safer and secure than just about everywhere else these days.
All of this has happened before, and worse. In every generation since before this country was founded.
There'll be riots, and looting, the damage and theft will be blamed on convenient scapegoats from "out of town", which the government will accept as truth because the alternative is trying to arrest hundreds of people at once (logistically improbable, and likely to inflame other areas in response if successful), and then life goes back to normal.
The cycle will continue until the thing that is being protested is remedied, in this case far too many murders of innocent people (black, white, or otherwise).
In 10, 20, 30, 40, etc. years, some other issue will pop up, and it starts all over again.
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Glad I moved back to Florida.
where all you have to deal with are aligators, pythons, hanging chads, zombie bites and most dangerous of all, old drivers?
I am not kidding. If you google "weird news from" google automatically fills in "Florida"
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Glad I moved back to Florida.where all you have to deal with are aligators, pythons, hanging chads, zombie bites and most dangerous of all, old drivers?
I am not kidding. If you google "weird news from" google automatically fills in "Florida"
But at least nobody's trying to set my house on fire.
F##! the drivers here around Orlando though. Everybody who emigrates from New York can die in a fire.
I was raised in West Palm Beach, FL. My various comments are:
If I had a dime for every time I had been run off the road by a senior driver who wasn't looking where they were going I'd be a wealthy man.
If there was anything legitimately wrong with an election ballet that would have put a Democrat candidate at a disadvantage it never would have been approved in Palm Beach County.
I hope you like insects because you're going to have to put up with them for perpetuity.
The saying was, "From Florida you have to go north to get south."
Customer Service Manager
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To keep with modern times, you'd think they's change the name -- call it a "$79.95 All Day Pass," or an "E-Ticket Ride." Or, here's an even better, crazy idea to bring policing practices into the 21st Century: How about stopping "nickel rides" altogether?"
Ok.. that really drops the chance this was just an accident.
I feel strangely ok with the burning now as long as no one else gets hurt. Its not a good thing but it might be better than apathy.
Ok.. that really drops the chance this was just an accident.
I feel strangely ok with the burning now as long as no one else gets hurt. Its not a good thing but it might be better than apathy.
I'm not sure there was any doubt about it being an accident in the first place. From what I've heard, he was fine when he got put in the car. Somehow I doubt his spinal cord just decided to sever itself.
I was raised in West Palm Beach, FL. My various comments are:
If I had a dime for every time I had been run off the road by a senior driver who wasn't looking where they were going I'd be a wealthy man.
If there was anything legitimately wrong with an election ballet that would have put a Democrat candidate at a disadvantage it never would have been approved in Palm Beach County.
I hope you like insects because you're going to have to put up with them for perpetuity.
The saying was, "From Florida you have to go north to get south."
I was raised in Vernon, and then Tallahassee. So rural, followed by "not a tourist/retiree spot".
Since moving to Leesburg (near Orlando) my mother has been in two accidents on 441 (she has never been in one before), and in my drives around I've avoided NUMEROUS people driving on the wrong side of the road, including one particular person who better hope I never meet them in person, because they cut across FOUR LANES OF TRAFFIC in the wrong direction, with the roads packed, while I was taking my mom to the hospital after her second accident (about 50 feet ahead, there had already been another).
I never thought of myself as a particularly good driver but compared to a lot of the people around here I may as well be a professional driver on a closed course.
But on the bright side, the area is quite beautiful, and insects have never bothered me much (mosquitoes avoid me and wasps always just land on me and not do anything), so it's not all bad.
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Not sure I see how it justifies burning buildings and looting stores of people not even involved. I also don't see how attacking ALL of the police accomplishes anything.
Yeah, there's reason to be angry, but keep it focused on those involved. This is simply mob violence.
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I was watching this on the news yesterday. I saw one person with the rioters holding up a sign and holding his hands up in a "hands up don't shoot" gesture a few times while the people right next to him were throwing rocks, ect. at the police.
Does that person think if he police hit him its assault by the cops when he is clearly in the group of people assaulting the police?
I agree with Ange de la Nuit. I don't see how it justifies looting other peoples property or burning other peoples places down that had nothing to do with what happened.
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Glad I moved back to Florida.where all you have to deal with are aligators, pythons, hanging chads, zombie bites and most dangerous of all, old drivers?
I am not kidding. If you google "weird news from" google automatically fills in "Florida"
But at least nobody's trying to set my house on fire.
F&~* the drivers here around Orlando though. Everybody who emigrates from New York can die in a fire.
HEY!
To keep with modern times, you'd think they's change the name -- call it a "$79.95 All Day Pass," or an "E-Ticket Ride." Or, here's an even better, crazy idea to bring policing practices into the 21st Century: How about stopping "nickel rides" altogether?"
well said.
I have been too busy dealing with personal drama and building for our May Day event to pay much attention to the Baltimore Uprising, but here's a neat-o Facebook page:
And here's some exciting news for lefties recycled from my Fun-Timey Revolutionary Socialism thread:
And here's some shameless socialist self-promotion:
Lowell, MA: May Day action against low wages and police terror!
which we originally initiatied in the wake of the April 15th low-wage workers protest, but quickly added to in light of the ILWU/SC AFL-CIO call for action.
Finish the Civil War!
Smash Racist Police Terror!
For Black Liberation Through Socialist Revolution!
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Baltimore commissioner acknowledged Freddie Gray was denied medical attention when he asked for it and that he was not buckled into the paddy wagon. They are investigating the exact circumstances but have acknowledged that serious misconduct occurred. The officers involved have been suspended with pay until the investigation is complete.
There were nearly 2 weeks of peaceful protests before the violence erupted. I think this is part of why outside agitators are sometimes being blamed, because things were going fine, and the tragic death/murder was being investigated. Mind, yesterday was Freddie Gray's funeral which also obviously may be part of the timing, although of course these actions fly in the face of the family's wishes.
A lot of the looters, etc. were caught on video and Mayor and police have said the video will be used to arrest those participating.
A lot of Baltimore citizens uniting today to clean up and help out where needed, and encouraging to support businesses and homes damaged by the events. These are the great social citizens working together at a grassroots level to make Baltimore a better place.
Violence solves nothing, and it's only making it harder for the people really working for justice and serving the community.It's telling when the Crips and Bloods unite to tell people to stop the violence.
I pray after this that Baltimore's city council's efforts to get bodycams on cops and other precautions are no longer blocked.
Main sources for the above: Baltimore Sun, WJZ, and WYPR.
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Violence solves nothing, and it's only making it harder for the people really working for justice and serving the community.It's telling when the Crips and Bloods unite to tell people to stop the violence.
I pray after this that Baltimore's city council's efforts to get bodycams on cops and other precautions are no longer blocked.
Main sources for the above: Baltimore Sun, WJZ, and WYPR.
The truth of it is, 'real justice' only works in a system that is actually just and fair. When people spend enough time seeing the system not work, or simply work against them, violence is inevitable. We can idealize the peaceful non-compliance type protests, but that again, only works if there is a system in place to temper the response. The system isn't fair. It isn't just. We have a problem that cant be solved within the system itself.
To say violence never solves anything is pretty naive. Without the violence of the Civil War, there is no Civil Rights movement. Without the violence of the Revolutionary war, there is no US Constitution. In both cases, people did attempt non-violent solutions first, but in order to take power from those who have it, generally there has to be violence somewhere along the line. The violence may not directly result in positive change, but it fascilitates it. We remember violence. We forget peace quickly.
In this particular case, it doesn't seem that the violence previously expended on civil rights is sufficient to support the cause. The human animal is forgetful. 200,000 people can march down 6th avenue in new york and we forget in a week. Knock down a single block of buildings in new york though, and the effects are still being felt 14 years later. Violence is remembered, it affects change. Not always good in the short term, or even in the long term. But real, fundamental and systemic change rarely happens without underlying violence.
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It is not enough for me to stand before you tonight and condemn riots. It would be morally irresponsible for me to do that without, at the same time, condemning the contingent, intolerable conditions that exist in our society. These conditions are the things that cause individuals to feel that they have no other alternative than to engage in violent rebellions to get attention. And I must say tonight that a riot is the language of the unheard
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While I do not think that burning and looting does anyone any good, I understand how frustration and the inability to correct a corrupt system can lead to such. I freely admit I am a white male, and a New Yorker to boot (not the city, upstate, yes there is part of New York that is NOT one giant stinking hole of greed and narcissism). But even I have been harassed by police for no reason. I was pulled over by a cop late one night leaving work, driving completely responsibly and what not. He pulls me over, doesn't get out of the car, and when I exit my vehicle because I am as fracking confused as I can be as to why he pulled me over, he shouts at me "Don't you ever F'ing approach a cop like this again or I will put you in F'ing jail!" He then speeds off and almost runs me over in the process. I have also had a campus cop (at the time I was in college at SUNY Fredonia and campus cops were rent a cops, now on SUNY campuses they are actually police who carry loaded glock 9mm, cause that is just what we need more of) hit me with a large maglite flash light for asking him a QUESTION! And it was a legitimate one, and I was polite to boot.
What does this tell us, that the people who are supposed to protect and serve the public generally do not. In fact lately beyond police brutality and misconduct, there is the growing tend of seeing people as a money resource, and when cops in many states pull folk over or deal with them on other minor issues, they take the opportunity to use seizure laws to take their money and person property even when NO CRIME IS COMMITTED. When a cop asked you are you carrying a large amount of cash, always say no, ever if you are. One man who had a large amount of cash driving across country to California to start a new job and rent a place to live, had all of his cash taken by police. Not a drug dealer, not a pimp, just a guy who was going to work in silicon valley and needed the cash to pay for his new start.
Welcome to the death throes of freedom and justice, alas it has been dying for quite some time, apparently we just failed to notice until lately.
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I would like to also say, that I am aware that my experiences are in no way, shape, or form as horrible or deadly as many others, but I believe it is still telling that I a white collar white man in his mid 30's is a target. Expect things to get much much worse, as they say "Rome is burning, even if you cannot yourself see the flames."
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Also, the media is failing to report on anything that doesn't fit their "narrative". All the black protesters being peaceful or even helping with the damage. Or the white looters. Or the racists provoking black protestors. In fact, there is a picture circulating the media reports as showing "a black looter attacking a white woman", but the people involved have said that the woman was trying to take the black protester's bag and the other two white people were stopping the the woman.
The game is rigged. The fact of the matter is, peace is not an option here. The violence will stop when the people in control stop their violence. It's easy to take the moral high ground of non-violence when you haven't been subject to the violence and oppression they have.
To quote John F. Kennedy "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."
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While I do not think that burning and looting does anyone any good, I understand how frustration and the inability to correct a corrupt system can lead to such. I freely admit I am a white male, and a New Yorker to boot (not the city, upstate, yes there is part of New York that is NOT one giant stinking hole of greed and narcissism).
HEY!
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sorry Freehold, upstate bitterness took over for a moment
I'm not sure there was any doubt about it being an accident in the first place. From what I've heard, he was fine when he got put in the car. Somehow I doubt his spinal cord just decided to sever itself.
CNN was/is going with a little bit of epistemic nihlism, saying he stopped running because there was something wrong with him, we don't know what happened, he was put in with another prisoner who may have done something....
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Comes with EVERY last person who is not from NY originally who asked me where I am from saying the following "Oh, you are from New York, how do you like living in the city, it MUST be so awesome."
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What does this tell us, that the people who are supposed to protect and serve the public generally do not.
Your story actually tells us that you had two specific bad experiences with law enforcement figures. Anecdotes like that in no way indicate the general predilection of anything.
Now, by this I'm not saying the abuse of power is statistically insignificant. I suspect it's quite significant, actually. But I've not seen anything yet that has persuaded me that the MAJORITY of police officers in the United States are abusive or corrupt.
Whatever your personal experiences with police officers or other law enforcement, don't throw the baby out with the bath water, man.
I have been too busy dealing with personal drama and building for our May Day event to pay much attention to the Baltimore Uprising, but here's a neat-o Facebook page:
And here's some exciting news for lefties recycled from my Fun-Timey Revolutionary Socialism thread:
And here's some shameless socialist self-promotion:
Lowell, MA: May Day action against low wages and police terror!
which we originally initiatied in the wake of the April 15th low-wage workers protest, but quickly added to in light of the ILWU/SC AFL-CIO call for action.
Finish the Civil War!
Smash Racist Police Terror!
For Black Liberation Through Socialist Revolution!
You do realize that the Police are union members for the most part, especially those in the big cities.
What does this tell us, that the people who are supposed to protect and serve the public generally do not.Your story actually tells us that you had two specific bad experiences with law enforcement figures. Anecdotes like that in no way indicate the general predilection of anything.
Now, by this I'm not saying the abuse of power is statistically insignificant. I suspect it's quite significant, actually. But I've not seen anything yet that has persuaded me that the MAJORITY of police officers in the United States are abusive or corrupt.
Whatever your personal experiences with police officers or other law enforcement, don't throw the baby out with the bath water, man.
People are not throwing bricks at heavily armed and armored police over a pair of anecdotes. They are this angry because of wide spread systematic abuse from police, violations of their rights, and the blue wall of silence that keeps both problems from being fixed.
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Comes with EVERY last person who is not from NY originally who asked me where I am from saying the following "Oh, you are from New York, how do you like living in the city, it MUST be so awesome."
dunno about manhattan, but brooklyn is awesome.
I freely admit that there are good cops out there too, and I would think they should be mad as anyone over these issues, as the piss poor behavior of some of their peers overshadows all of the good they do. My wife's uncle is a NJ detective, and he is a good man, so yes, not all police are of the type that we are discussing, but even a few bad apples spoils the whole bunch, and I suspect that the "problem" officers number more than a few, but indeed not anywhere near all, or even most, but more then enough to bring us to where we stand currently.
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What does this tell us, that the people who are supposed to protect and serve the public generally do not.Your story actually tells us that you had two specific bad experiences with law enforcement figures. Anecdotes like that in no way indicate the general predilection of anything.
Now, by this I'm not saying the abuse of power is statistically insignificant. I suspect it's quite significant, actually. But I've not seen anything yet that has persuaded me that the MAJORITY of police officers in the United States are abusive or corrupt.
Whatever your personal experiences with police officers or other law enforcement, don't throw the baby out with the bath water, man.
if we do nothing until the majority of the police fit this description, then we will truly be screwed, every one of us.
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That is most likely true. Also that begs the question, are ethical and honest cops badgered and push into becoming the opposite by their peers. I know that around upstate NY at least many police and state troopers who do not make enough money from traffic stops and other such doings are given crappy assignments and suffer other indignities. Such is not to the level of becoming a murderous bastard, but it would strike me as symptomatic of a much greater problem.