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BigNorseWolf wrote:

Something i forgot to point out...

For some people being arrested is no big deal. Its just you're in and you're out of jail. But when your department is torturing people they arrest to death and blatantly getting away with it then every arrest becomes a mortal threat.

Looping back around to the "It's justified to chase, detain and search anyone who runs or acts nervous and suspicious", which everyone does since they know the cops can abuse them at will.


BigNorseWolf wrote:

Something i forgot to point out...

For some people being arrested is no big deal. Its just you're in and you're out of jail. But when your department is torturing people they arrest to death and blatantly getting away with it then every arrest becomes a mortal threat.

I don't know... Being arrested sucked incredibly bad. Being in handcuffs, knowing that your mugshot and prints are in the system for life, and just the waiting, and waiting and... Jail was also one of the most depressing and mentally/physically unhealthy places I have ever been. And on top of it all, getting treated like less then dirt by cops, corrections officers, attorneys, and everyone else. The whole experience sucked from beginning to end, and felt designed to be a punishment. I would rather spend a week at the DMV then an hour in jail.

I've only been detained by the police once, so maybe it is different in other places. I would tend to think that unless you are stupid rich, famous or otherwise powerful, losing you freedom due to police is going to be unpleasant to say the least.

I think it would be more accurate to say that dealing with police is no big deal for many people. It is an entirely different relationship when the police treat you as a citizen, rather then a suspect.


Having once spent 4 months in jail because I was held in contempt of court for not providing an eye witness testimony of a crime I didn't even witness I'll agree jail sucks alot, especially if you aren't used to that kind of thing(what with not being a criminal).

Also, turns out good lawyers are important, like, really important.

If you don't have the money for a good lawyer when dealing with the court system(even if you are not the one on trial) you are totally screwed(well maybe not if you are white, I wouldn't know)


Yuugasa wrote:

Having once spent 4 months in jail because I was held in contempt of court for not providing an eye witness testimony of a crime I didn't even witness I'll agree jail sucks alot, especially if you aren't used to that kind of thing(what with not being a criminal).

Also, turns out good lawyers are important, like, really important.

If you don't have the money for a good lawyer when dealing with the court system(even if you are not the one on trial) you are totally screwed(well maybe not if you are white, I wouldn't know)

Even if you are white having a good lawyer helps. This is compounded with not being poor helps.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Fergie wrote:

The law does not recognize guilt by association.

Maybe not by de jure, but de facto is quite a different story when it comes to prosecution. There have been people convicted and executed for nothing other than association with individuals deemed guilty of serious crimes.


LazarX wrote:
Fergie wrote:

The law does not recognize guilt by association.

Maybe not by de jure, but de facto is quite a different story when it comes to prosecution. There have been people convicted and executed for nothing other than association with individuals deemed guilty of serious crimes.

You aren't kidding! In my own case, it took about 10 years for this stuff to get shaken out by the legal system. In the end, I don't think the City of New York even had to admit wrongdoing for mass arresting ~1,800 people (although they did have to pay).

I expected that kind of shabby treatment when Bloomberg was mayor/tyrant of NYC, but was very disappointed when De Blasio praised the fine history of the NYPD handling protests.

EDIT: The only consistent thing about "The Law" is inconsistency.


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Yuugasa wrote:

Having once spent 4 months in jail because I was held in contempt of court for not providing an eye witness testimony of a crime I didn't even witness I'll agree jail sucks alot, especially if you aren't used to that kind of thing(what with not being a criminal).

Also, turns out good lawyers are important, like, really important.

If you don't have the money for a good lawyer when dealing with the court system(even if you are not the one on trial) you are totally screwed(well maybe not if you are white, I wouldn't know)

what the actual f*~!?

contempt of court can be hard to fight, and is a great way for judges to abuse their power.


FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUU


Freehold DM wrote:
FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

WT actual F?


Not that i think it is morally right, but I'm under the impression that police don't have to tell you why they are detaining you. I think they can detain you for 24 hours without charging you with a crime. They are also not required to read you your rights unless they are questioning you about the crime you were detained for.


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That is a spectacular example of something that needs to be changed, and badly.


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Yuugasa wrote:

Having once spent 4 months in jail because I was held in contempt of court for not providing an eye witness testimony of a crime I didn't even witness I'll agree jail sucks alot, especially if you aren't used to that kind of thing(what with not being a criminal).

Also, turns out good lawyers are important, like, really important.

If you don't have the money for a good lawyer when dealing with the court system(even if you are not the one on trial) you are totally screwed(well maybe not if you are white, I wouldn't know)

It is too bad you are not a little older. My generation knows a little phrase that can get you out of anything- "I don't recall."

Trading arms to Iran in exchange for hostages?
"I don't recall."
Funneling money to death squads in South America?
"I don't recall."


Freehold DM wrote:
FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

This is funny in a sad sort of way.

That exchange sounds like a caricature of actual police you see in stuff like Batman comics and other stuff that like to satire corrupt police.


Rynjin wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

This is funny in a sad sort of way.

That exchange sounds like a caricature of actual police you see in stuff like Batman comics and other stuff that like to satire corrupt police.

It would be funny if it were in a comic. It isn't funny because it actually happened to a real person.


Freehold DM wrote:
Yuugasa wrote:

Having once spent 4 months in jail because I was held in contempt of court for not providing an eye witness testimony of a crime I didn't even witness I'll agree jail sucks alot, especially if you aren't used to that kind of thing(what with not being a criminal).

Also, turns out good lawyers are important, like, really important.

If you don't have the money for a good lawyer when dealing with the court system(even if you are not the one on trial) you are totally screwed(well maybe not if you are white, I wouldn't know)

what the actual f+$%?

contempt of court can be hard to fight, and is a great way for judges to abuse their power.

I knew I was in trouble when the prosecution for the case started looking at the judge like he had just completely lost his mind.


Fergie wrote:
Yuugasa wrote:

Having once spent 4 months in jail because I was held in contempt of court for not providing an eye witness testimony of a crime I didn't even witness I'll agree jail sucks alot, especially if you aren't used to that kind of thing(what with not being a criminal).

Also, turns out good lawyers are important, like, really important.

If you don't have the money for a good lawyer when dealing with the court system(even if you are not the one on trial) you are totally screwed(well maybe not if you are white, I wouldn't know)

It is too bad you are not a little older. My generation knows a little phrase that can get you out of anything- "I don't recall."

Trading arms to Iran in exchange for hostages?
"I don't recall."
Funneling money to death squads in South America?
"I don't recall."

I wasn't the one on trial and hadn't been charged with a crime, I didn't realize there might be a reason to just keep my mouth shut, even funnier, not a single person on either side of the law disagreed with where I was or what little I said I witnessed(which didn't include the crime itself). Judge wanted more though.

Edit: Not claiming my experience was typical of all people everywhere though, apparently that judge, while having a reputation for being tough on crime and "very fair" in the public eye had a history of doing all sorts of shady things in the courtroom, including using threats to try to pry what he thought was "the truth" from people, even though it wasn't his place to do so. As the lawyer who finally freed me told me,what he did to me was typical of him, he essentially used his position to try and coerce false testimony from witnesses, as ridiculous and probably criminal as that is.


Yuugasa wrote:
Fergie wrote:
Yuugasa wrote:

Having once spent 4 months in jail because I was held in contempt of court for not providing an eye witness testimony of a crime I didn't even witness I'll agree jail sucks alot, especially if you aren't used to that kind of thing(what with not being a criminal).

Also, turns out good lawyers are important, like, really important.

If you don't have the money for a good lawyer when dealing with the court system(even if you are not the one on trial) you are totally screwed(well maybe not if you are white, I wouldn't know)

It is too bad you are not a little older. My generation knows a little phrase that can get you out of anything- "I don't recall."

Trading arms to Iran in exchange for hostages?
"I don't recall."
Funneling money to death squads in South America?
"I don't recall."

I wasn't the one on trial and hadn't been charged with a crime, I didn't realize there might be a reason to just keep my mouth shut, even funnier, not a single person on either side of the law disagreed with where I was or what little I said I witnessed(which didn't include the crime itself). Judge wanted more though.

Edit: Not claiming my experience was typical of all people everywhere though, apparently that judge, while having a reputation for being tough on crime and "very fair" in the public eye had a history of doing all sorts of shady things in the courtroom, including using threats to try to pry what he thought was "the truth" from people, even though it wasn't his place to do so. As the lawyer who finally freed me told me,what he did to me was typical of him, he essentially used his position to try and coerce false testimony from witnesses, as ridiculous and probably criminal as that is.

a monster wearing a robe.


Freehold DM wrote:
a monster wearing a robe.

Strangely enough I got the impression he thought he was the hero of the show.


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Yuugasa wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
a monster wearing a robe.

Strangely enough I got the impression he thought he was the hero of the show.

Villains always self-identify as the hero.


BigDTBone wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

This is funny in a sad sort of way.

That exchange sounds like a caricature of actual police you see in stuff like Batman comics and other stuff that like to satire corrupt police.

It would be funny if it were in a comic. It isn't funny because it actually happened to a real person.

Why would something happening to a real person impact the comedic value?

It might be black comedy, but it is sort of an inherently funny scene.

"Two bumbling cops laugh about ignoring probable cause, unaware they're being filmed."


Rynjin wrote:

Why would something happening to a real person impact the comedic value?

It might be black comedy, but it is sort of an inherently funny scene.

"Two bumbling cops laugh about ignoring probable cause, unaware they're being filmed."

Our tax dollars at work... I just wonder how much more we'll have to spend to get rid of these guys and compensate their other victims...


'Baltimore Is Here': Ethiopian Israelis protest police brutality in Jerusalem


Rynjin wrote:
BigDTBone wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

This is funny in a sad sort of way.

That exchange sounds like a caricature of actual police you see in stuff like Batman comics and other stuff that like to satire corrupt police.

It would be funny if it were in a comic. It isn't funny because it actually happened to a real person.

Why would something happening to a real person impact the comedic value?

It might be black comedy, but it is sort of an inherently funny scene.

"Two bumbling cops laugh about ignoring probable cause, unaware they're being filmed."

Um seriously? Why would two cop harassing someone (and not even knowing why themselves) be un-funny?


Recruited an African master's student at UMass. I call her the Nigerian princess behind her back, damn, she's fine. Anyway, she's all into intersectionality and took much umbrage at my assertion that historically and, as far as I know, today, black males have taken the brunt of racist state violence/mass incarceration. I don't know, it's what I picked up from all those black feminist and Maoist articles I was reading. Anyway, Mr. Comrade and I found some articles for her:

It’s Time to Talk About the Female Victims of Police Brutality

Police Kill Black Women All The Time, Too — We Just Don't Hear About It

Remembering the Black Women Killed By Police

Okay, that last one won't work because it's got a proscribed word in the url. http://b!%$&magazine.org/post/gender-and-race-and-police-violence-women-fer guson-michael-brown

Anyway, I'd heard of Boyd, Jones and Bumpurs which is a good third of the cases mentioned in these articles. More reading through them and more cases I've heard of. You all should be more like me.


Well, this was inevitable. Kinda surprised I haven't seen more of these:

'The Game Done Changed’: Reconsidering ‘The Wire’ Amidst the Baltimore Uprising

Have no idea whether the article is any good.


It's okay. It suffers from most ideological critique of artistic media though... "because it didn't present the idea I'm talking about right now, it failed".

He's right in certain aspects, it does present the police characters as being pretty sympathetic. It doesn't talk about organized movements trying to bring about change.

It's a fictional show, not a documentary. It's art and entertainment, not a complete and faithful representation of reality. The purpose of the show is to tell a story, not be The Truth.

Also, his comments about no one in the city liking the show are false. In many of the areas where they filmed, people loved the show and gave the crew decent amounts of respect.

I think that if he framed it as "what separates The Wire from reality" instead of "why we should dislike The Wire" I'd have found it to be a stronger article. I still think it is the Great American Novel of television. It isn't perfect, but we go back and look at many of the Great American Novels... neither are they. Particularly as time passes and we learn more of the truth of a situation. I definitely agree with his assessment of how it portrays law enforcement.

I had similar disagreements with critiques of American Sniper. People wanted to point out that it didn't go into the truth of why we went to war. The thing is it isn't supposed to go into that. It's supposed to show us why the main character joined the war. There's a difference.


If he'd framed it as "why we should dislike The Wire," I don't think he would have been able to write:

"I’ll even call it the greatest cop show ever, a cop show with insanely brilliant dialogue, indelible performances, and more three-dimensional roles for black actors than 99 percent of what comes out of Hollywood. But all the same—still just a cop show."

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Fergie wrote:
I expected that kind of shabby treatment when Bloomberg was mayor/tyrant of NYC, but was very disappointed when De Blasio praised the fine history of the NYPD handling protests.

You shouldn't have been surprised. The NYC cops at this point, hate the mayor, having literally turned their backs on him at several public functions already. De Blasio is desperately looking to mend fences with them.


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LazarX wrote:
Fergie wrote:
I expected that kind of shabby treatment when Bloomberg was mayor/tyrant of NYC, but was very disappointed when De Blasio praised the fine history of the NYPD handling protests.
You shouldn't have been surprised. The NYC cops at this point, hate the mayor, having literally turned their backs on him at several public functions already. De Blasio is desperately looking to mend fences with them.

A demoicrats weakness is trying to be loved by everyone, even in a relationship where nothing they do will change the fact that they're a democrat, and thus wrong.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
BigNorseWolf wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Fergie wrote:
I expected that kind of shabby treatment when Bloomberg was mayor/tyrant of NYC, but was very disappointed when De Blasio praised the fine history of the NYPD handling protests.
You shouldn't have been surprised. The NYC cops at this point, hate the mayor, having literally turned their backs on him at several public functions already. De Blasio is desperately looking to mend fences with them.
A demoicrats weakness is trying to be loved by everyone, even in a relationship where nothing they do will change the fact that they're a democrat, and thus wrong.

New York cops actually tend towards strong Democratic trends when it comes to voting. They've turned against De Blasio not because he's a Democrat, it's more because of his comments on police brutality in talking about matters such as Fergueson. They believe his commentary has encouraged black on police violence which has resulted in the deaths of at least two policemen in New York. When he showed up to speak at the funerals for said cops, all of the lay police turned their backs on him.


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LazarX wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Fergie wrote:
I expected that kind of shabby treatment when Bloomberg was mayor/tyrant of NYC, but was very disappointed when De Blasio praised the fine history of the NYPD handling protests.
You shouldn't have been surprised. The NYC cops at this point, hate the mayor, having literally turned their backs on him at several public functions already. De Blasio is desperately looking to mend fences with them.
A demoicrats weakness is trying to be loved by everyone, even in a relationship where nothing they do will change the fact that they're a democrat, and thus wrong.
New York cops actually tend towards strong Democratic trends when it comes to voting. They've turned against De Blasio not because he's a Democrat, it's more because of his comments on police brutality in talking about matters such as Fergueson. They believe his commentary has encouraged black on police violence which has resulted in the deaths of at least two policemen in New York. When he showed up to speak at the funerals for said cops, all of the lay police turned their backs on him.

That's what they say - I read it more as "He's not going to blindly support police no matter what, so he's anti-cop".


Rynjin wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

This is funny in a sad sort of way.

That exchange sounds like a caricature of actual police you see in stuff like Batman comics and other stuff that like to satire corrupt police.

The fact that you consider this standard, candid exchange a caricature is kinda sad.


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Caineach wrote:
The fact that you consider this standard, candid exchange a caricature is kinda sad.

He didn't say he considered it a caricature; he said it sounded like one.


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LazarX wrote:


New York cops actually tend towards strong Democratic trends when it comes to voting. They've turned against De Blasio not because he's a Democrat, it's more because of his comments on police brutality in talking about matters such as Fergueson. They believe his commentary has encouraged black on police violence which has resulted in the deaths of at least two policemen in New York. When he showed up to speak at the funerals for said cops, all of the lay police turned their backs on him.

What the Jeff said.

And being a democrat means nothing if you can't try any of the programs to reign in some of the cops treatment of minorities, which the police are against. Nothings he's said remotely amounts to "go out and shoot a cop" and the NYPD is being disingenuous in its stance that ANY criticism of its practices is unacceptable.


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Indeed the vast majority of this is true. What it leaves out however is the role the policeman benevolency association plays and their longstanding war with just about every mayors office ever. Lynch is the jerk here, and he uses the political weight of the organization as a Bludgeon on a regular basis.


Caineach wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

This is funny in a sad sort of way.

That exchange sounds like a caricature of actual police you see in stuff like Batman comics and other stuff that like to satire corrupt police.

The fact that you consider this standard, candid exchange a caricature is kinda sad.

He thinks its run into poes law


Rynjin wrote:

Great Scott, you're right!

Someone arrest the police too, they're out after curfew!

The media are there doing their job, as are the police (which, as I recall, is a specific exception to the curfew).

I read this in Christopher Lloyd's voice lol


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LazarX wrote:
Fergie wrote:
I expected that kind of shabby treatment when Bloomberg was mayor/tyrant of NYC, but was very disappointed when De Blasio praised the fine history of the NYPD handling protests.
You shouldn't have been surprised. The NYC cops at this point, hate the mayor, having literally turned their backs on him at several public functions already. De Blasio is desperately looking to mend fences with them.

The big problem is that the cops have nothing legitimate to be upset about. Their "rep" Patrick Lynch is a total scumbag who defends the worst police actions, and finds insult where there is none. He has blamed the mayor for speaking an obvious truth that shouldn't have offended anyone (how black kids need to be careful around police). He has also blamed De Blasio for the death of two cops, and other incidents, that had NOTHING whatsoever to do with the mayor. In short, Lynch is just a loudmouth lobbyist with no credibility.

Meanwhile, the NYPD has done a crap job at handling protest for at least the past dozen+ years, and has shamelessly mistreated blacks and other minorities since long before that. Almost every major protest event has resulted in huge financial losses from settlements for the NYPD's misconduct. There are also at least half a dozen high profile cases of police killing or maiming innocent minorities, and unknown numbers of incidents that never make the news.

For the mayor to abandon reality and go with the ravings of Lynch and his loyalists (most cops didn't turn their backs...) shows a pathetic level of toadying and sucking up that makes me sick.

I should have know better... most politicians can't disappoint me because I already think they are scum. I had hoped De Blasio would be better, but well, here we are.

Stooge of the Plutocracy!


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Stooge!


After Freddie Gray Protests, Baltimore Unions Demand End to “Trickle-down” Neighborhood Development


not good.


Freehold DM wrote:
not good.

If guys like this stay on the force, how can cops wonder why they aren't trusted?


Ah, it all makes sense now. All of this "police brutality" is just a Templar plot to take over the police force.


Rynjin wrote:
Ah, it all makes sense now. All of this "police brutality" is just a Templar plot to take over the police force.

Thats ridiculous.

The masons already own it.


Rynjin wrote:
Ah, it all makes sense now. All of this "police brutality" is just a Templar plot to take over the police force.

quietly puts up hood, leaves thread by jumping out of window into a surprisingly well placed snowbank


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
Ah, it all makes sense now. All of this "police brutality" is just a Templar plot to take over the police force.

Thats ridiculous.

The masons already own it.

We don't really own it we merely control it. Much like all major security forces around the world. The whole world is really just our plaything.


out on bail, cops fire back regarding Gray's knife


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Freehold DM wrote:
out on bail, cops fire back regarding Gray's knife

That's like epically missing the point.

DA: "We contend that the police arrested Gray illegitimately then proceeded to beat him so severely it broke his spine which eventually lead to his death."

COP: "That is a HORRIFIC, slanderous LIE. I did nothing of the sort!
It was a legitimate arrest ."


Would also require the cops to have x ray vision for telling the difference between a spring loaded knife and a non spring loaded knife in his pocket.

Why would anyone carry a spring loaded knife? A good thumb notch or spiderco opens just as fast, and more reliably.


BigNorseWolf wrote:

Why would anyone carry a spring loaded knife? A good thumb notch or spiderco opens just as fast, and more reliably.

For a heavier blade, so you don't have to pop your wrist as hard.

I've met some guys who had to use their elbows to get enough centripetal force. So basically, because they don't want to learn to open one properly or don't want to shuck out the cash for a good one.

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