Can a Mouser enter foe's squares freely, or does the Mouser have to use Underfoot Assault?
Mouser wrote: Underfoot Assault (Ex): At 1st level, if a foe whose size is larger than the mouser's is adjacent to her and misses her with a melee attack, the mouser can as an immediate action spend 1 panache point to move 5 feet into an area of the attacker's space. This movement does not count against the mouser's movement the next round, and it doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity. While the mouser is within a foe's space, she is considered to occupy her square within that foe's space.
While the mouser is within her foe's space, the foe takes a –4 penalty on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks not made against the mouser, and all of the mouser's allies that are adjacent to both the foe and the mouser are considered to be flanking the foe. The mouser is considered to be flanking the foe whose space she is within if she is adjacent to an ally who is also adjacent to the foe. The mouser can move within her foe's space and leave the foe's space unhindered and without provoking attacks of opportunity, but if the foe attempts to move to a position where the mouser is no longer in its space, the movement provokes an attack of opportunity from the mouser. This deed replaces opportune parry and riposte.
I understand the RAI for this ability, but the bolded text could be read to allow a mouser to freely enter an opponent's square.
Before we jump into a discussion about "entering" vs "moving within", assume the Mouser can use something like Acrobatics to enter the enemy square as part of moving.
I think they need to use underfoot assault (ie, be swung at) to get in there if they can't get in there normally. After that they can be in any square in the space, ie, any 1 of all four squares for a large creature.
If a sentence doesn't say that it causes hair growth then it doesn't cause hair growth. Entering a space and moving freely within it are two separate things. An ability to move around within the space doesn't necessarily get you into it.
BigNorseWolf wrote: I think they need to use underfoot assault (ie, be swung at) to get in there if they can't get in there normally. After that they can be in any square in the space, ie, any 1 of all four squares for a large creature.
If a sentence doesn't say that it causes hair growth then it doesn't cause hair growth. Entering a space and moving freely within it are two separate things. An ability to move around within the space doesn't necessarily get you into it.
I agree, which is why I included the Acrobatics line. Using Acrobatics, a character can attempt to move through an enemies square. The Mouser, by a strict reading, would be able to Acrobatics into their square, then sit pretty. Additionally, with this reading, there is no size restriction.
No, the Mouser cannot use Acrobatics to enter the foe's space and stay there unless the foe is three size categories larger. Unless you are using the Underfoot Assault ability, you are subject to standard movement and positioning rules, which state that a character cannot end his turn in another character's space.
baradakas wrote: No, the Mouser cannot use Acrobatics to enter the foe's space and stay there unless the foe is three size categories larger. Unless you are using the Underfoot Assault ability, you are subject to standard movement and positioning rules, which state that a character cannot end his turn in another character's space. However, the second paragraph of Underfoot Assualt specifically gives the Mouser abilities while in an enemy square. This would make it seem like it exactly alters the standard movement and positioning rules.
And Acrobatics allows you to enter the enemies square, provided you beat their CMD. Now, it is in the normal context of "move through", but movement is not predetermined at the start of the movement action. So, rules allowing, you can make the Acrobatics check, move into the enemy square, then take advantage of the Mouser rules for being in an enemy square.
You've got to use what Underfoot Assault (or a different feat, or be small enough that you can just do it). You can't enter an opponent's square just by being a mouser.
Am I wrong in thinking that Acrobatics allows you to enter an enemies square? And that normally, the only way to successfully use the skill would be to end your movement outside of their square. But with the Mouser, the option of moving within their square is given, so you can stay.
So I guess the proper question is this: Can a Mouser use Acrobatics to get into an enemy's square?
Quote: At 1st level, if a foe whose size is larger than the mouser's is adjacent to her and misses her with a melee attack, the mouser can as an immediate action spend 1 panache point to move 5 feet into an area of the attacker's space.... This is the relevant text for entering an enemy's square using Mouser specific abilities.
Your question is very unclear, I read it as threefold:
1) Does the text bolded in the OP allow me to freely enter any opponent's square?
Obviously not, as you state yourself. The Text I highlighted above covers this mechanic for the Mouser.
2) Can I use other abilities to enter an opponent's square?
Yes, but then you'd use their text for entering an opponent's square. As has been pointed out numerous times above the highlighted text in the OP only concerns movement within the squares of a creature larger than you after you have entered said squares by some means. You can move withing the area of any creature larger than you without provoking. Without being missed in combat and spending a point of panache however, you are still restricted to entering the squares of enemies who are at least three size categories larger than you, unless you are tiny or smaller - an act which provokes an AoO.
3) How can a character, in this case a mouser, enter an opponent's square without provoking and without spending panache?
I think this is what you meant to ask both originally and in your last post as being a Mouser has no affect on abilities external to the class. The foolproof method would be to pick up Monkey Shine and use it. Acrobatics RAW does not allow you to end movement within an enemy's space; DCs are posted for moving around an opponent, or moving through their squares to end movement in an unoccupied square. That said most DMs will probably allow you to use it for sufficiently large creatures (Any size enemy for Tiny PCs, Huge or larger enemies for small PCs, or Gargantuan or larger enemies for medium PCs, etc). That covers all manners I can think of off the top of my head.
Tiny creatures can enter other creature's squares freely. In our area, we allow a small Mouser with Reduce Person to enter another creature's square using the "tiny creatures" rules.
@Trekkie: I definitely should have lead with the question about entering using other means. I just was not thinking at the time. But to try and clarify:
1) Makes sense. This is supported by both normal movement rules, and the need to have the ability in the first place.
2) Moving within their space is different from moving into their space. I addressed this difference in my initial post. A little catch though: Moving freely within a foe's space has no size restriction. Just using the panache ability's trigger has a size restriction.
3) This is basically the question, though there are also issues with size differences, etc. But we address most of those. I take issue with your statement, though:
Quote: Acrobatics RAW does not allow you to end movement within an enemy's space; DCs are posted for moving around an opponent, or moving through their squares to end movement in an unoccupied square. Here is the RAW Acrobatics text:
PRD: Acrobatics wrote: In addition, you can move through a threatened square without provoking an attack of opportunity from an enemy by using Acrobatics. When moving in this way, you move at half speed. You can move at full speed by increasing the DC of the check by 10. You cannot use Acrobatics to move past foes if your speed is reduced due to carrying a medium or heavy load or wearing medium or heavy armor. If an ability allows you to move at full speed under such conditions, you can use Acrobatics to move past foes. You can use Acrobatics in this way while prone, but doing so requires a full-round action to move 5 feet, and the DC is increased by 5. If you attempt to move through an enemy's space and fail the check, you lose the move action and provoke an attack of opportunity. At no time does this ability say that you have to move to an unoccupied space. Instead, that is an aspect of normal movement, which we have already stated is overwritten by the Mouser ability. And the movement allowed by Acrobatics definitely allows you to move into the enemy square, otherwise there would not have to be two different DCs.
@Gwen Smith: This was an idea I also had, but the action economy to mess with potions of reduce person is a little annoying, so I was trying to find another way.
Re 2) Good catch, although technically it's still limited by relative size (i.e. you can't move through spaces of a medium or smaller sized creature as they only occupy one space).
Re 3)
The text repeatedly refers to moving past foes, which means going through their spaces into an unoccupied square. RAW that is what the acrobatics roll allows; most GMs (myself included) would probably rule that you can use it to end movement within the space of appropriately sized enemies instead as the intent of the mechanic is to allow you to ignore AoOs provoked as part of a movement. You can avoid the issue with a 2 level dip in Master of Many Styles (Monk) to get Monkey Style and Monkey Shine. Actually you could also use acrobatics to get close to a suitable opponent, and then 5' step into their square the next round.
It seems like you're also looking for ways to get to tiny (or smaller size); spellcasting would be your best option, but for easy access as a primarily martial character there are the Ring of Seven Lovely Colors, and Fox Shape feat (Kitsune only). Alternatively you might talk to your GM about a Ring of Reduce Person.
To clarify things, this would be for PFS.
Re 3) This is an issue of synonyms. Past =/= Through. In the context of the skill description, past means moving around the enemy, but through threatened squares. Moving through the enemy means physically entering their square.
The only line of text in the Acrobatics description that deals with moving through the enemy's square is the last one:
" If you attempt to move through an enemy's space and fail the check, you lose the move action and provoke an attack of opportunity.".
This line does not at all state you must end the movement in any special way. That is assumed to be limited by normal movement rules, which Mouser overwrites. The Mouser allows you to move within a foe's square, and occupy the same squares as your foe. This means, even for a medium foe, you can exist within the one square they occupy. So the movement for your turn goes as follows:
1) I move adjacent to my enemy, into a threatened square.
2) I decide I want to Acrobatics for the remainder of my movement, to avoid AoO, and get to better positioning. I declare I am aiming to step into my opponent's square.
3) I make the Acrobatics check, beat the enemy CMD+5, and step into their square. If I were not a Mouser, this would be an invalid square for me to end my movement, and I must continue. As a Mouser, I can exist in this square.
4) I end my turn 'within' their square.
Also, thank you for the suggestions for other methods of doing this. I am not a fan of the Monkey Style route, as I am using Monk levels for something else (not MoMS). The Ring may work, too, if this all goes down opposed to how I am reading.
Past: to or on the further side of.
It is not an issue of synonyms, nor even of method; regardless of whether you move around or through the obstacle, to move PAST it you must end movement on the other side. As this is for PFS acrobatics will not allow you to negate the AoO. The good news is you still have other options (such as bumping up your AC and just taking the attack).
CRB wrote: Ending Your Movement: You can't end your movement in the same square as another creature unless it is helpless. I already referred to this limitation, but I have quoted it for you now.
You may not end your movement in an enemy's space by using Acrobatics to enter it. Acrobatics does not have to tell you this because the Moving Through a Square section of the Combat chapter of the CRB already tells you this.
Being a Mouser does not allow you to exist in this square. Using the Mouser's Underfoot Assault ability allows you to exist in this square. Nowhere else in any rule that you have described is there any mention of the ability to remain within the enemy's square at the end of your turn. You have not stated that you will be three size categories smaller. You have not stated that you will be Tiny-sized. You have merely stated that, because you are a Mouser, you can exist there.
I think that another way of looking at this might be to think about the Underfoot Assault ability's cost vs. its benefits. First, you've got to take this particular archetype of this particular class. Class abilities are generally at least as valuable, if not more valuable, than feats, so it's a hefty price to pay just to be able to do it. Next, you've got to get your opponent to attack you, and he has to miss. And finally, you have to give up both a panache and an immediate action in order to execute the ability.
After your character has spent all of that and lived through whatever attacks didn't miss him, then he gets to hop into the opponent's square and stand there with him, gaining all of the listed benefits.
I understand that, from a purely physical viewpoint, tumbling into the enemy's square might seem like it's a reasonable thing to be able to do if you've got the skill points spent for it. But that's a cheap price compared to what the Mouser pays for both halves of this ability - the hopping in and the running around.
If we only look at two of the costs, the panache and the missed melee attack, you're skipping both of those by tumbling into the square and then Mousing about in there. Do you even want to have something for almost no cost? Wouldn't that make the game less of a challenge and less interesting?
A number of issues:
baradakas wrote: CRB wrote: Ending Your Movement: You can't end your movement in the same square as another creature unless it is helpless. I already referred to this limitation, but I have quoted it for you now.
You may not end your movement in an enemy's space by using Acrobatics to enter it. Acrobatics does not have to tell you this because the Moving Through a Square section of the Combat chapter of the CRB already tells you this. 1) I have also referred to this movement limitation, but as the Underfoot Assault ability clearly states, you can occupy the same space as an enemy. I will explain below.
baradakas wrote: Being a Mouser does not allow you to exist in this square. Using the Mouser's Underfoot Assault ability allows you to exist in this square. Nowhere else in any rule that you have described is there any mention of the ability to remain within the enemy's square at the end of your turn. You have not stated that you will be three size categories smaller. You have not stated that you will be Tiny-sized. You have merely stated that, because you are a Mouser, you can exist there. 2) This is exactly what Underfoot Assault allows you to do. Its the entire purpose, in fact, of the second paragraph. As currently written, there are two clauses to Underfoot Assualt: An ability to enter an enemy square, and what happens when a Mouser is in an enemy square. Such as the -4 to attacks, etc. There is no 'memory' of what you used Underfoot Assault against, nor is it a 'condition' you give something.
3) At no point in the second paragraph does it say "After using Underfoot Assault", "While using..." or anything of the sort. And if this was the intention, there would not have been an extra paragraph. It would have all been one paragraph. Paragraphs are how the rules separate things, and clearly demarks them as non-cause and effect linked.
4) As for the balance/interesting/difficult question, how 'interesting' is an entire archetype that relys on the DM deciding to attack the only person in the party who benefits from being attacked. It would happen once per combat, then never again so long as the DM could justify the enemy learning from their mistakes. Whereas, reading the second paragraph as it is, the interest and difficulty would come from finding other ways of getting into their square.
I now imagine a halfling contantly trying irritate orc by 'humping his leg', but gets always pushed away by invisible force as orc just stoicly ignores him.
Quote: ...the mouser can as an immediate action spend 1 panache point to move 5 feet into an area of the attacker's space..... While the mouser is within a foe's space, she is considered to occupy her square within that foe's space. To me that line says that the mouser can stay in the enemies square. Normally you cannot. The mouser has the ability to do it.
The mouser does not need to make an acrobatics check to enter the square because:
Quote: This movement does not count against the mouser's movement the next round, and it doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity. So the enemy attacks you with a melee attack and misses, the mouser then spends 1 panache point and moves into the enemies square (which no one but a mouser can do). The enemy is at –4 on all attacks and combat maneuver checks not made against the mouser and everyone is considered to be flanking it the enemy in melee combat. If the enemy chooses to move out of the square the mouser is also occupying then then mouser gets an attack of opportunity.
Quote: Underfoot Assault (Ex): At 1st level, if a foe whose size is larger than the mouser's is adjacent to her(the mouser) and misses her(the mouser) with a melee attack, the mouser can as an immediate action spend 1 panache point to move 5 feet into an area of the attacker's space. This movement does not count against the mouser's movement the next round, and it doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity. While the mouser is within a foe's space, she(the mouser) is considered to occupy her(the mouser's) square within that foe's space.
While the mouser is within her foe's space, the foe takes a –4 penalty on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks not made against the mouser, and all of the mouser's allies that are adjacent to both the foe and the mouser are considered to be flanking the foe. The mouser is considered to be flanking the foe whose space she(the mouser) is within if she(the mouser) is adjacent to an ally who is also adjacent to the foe. The mouser can move within her foe's space and leave the foe's space unhindered and without provoking attacks of opportunity, but [b]if the foe attempts to move to a position where the mouser is no longer in its space, the movement provokes an attack of opportunity[b] from the mouser. This deed replaces opportune parry and riposte.
The mouser and the foe never occupy the same square based on that reading. The mouser occupies it's foe's SPACE whilst the foe remains adjacent to her.
If for any reason the foe moves so it is no longer adjacent to her an attack of opportunity arises.
This is why it is also clarified regarding flanking and allies needing to be adjacent to BOTH the mouser and foe being Underfoot Assaulted.
Long story short, it's a fancy way of saying in response to the foe's failed attack the mouser:
1)spends 1 panache point and;
2)moves 5 feet without incurring an attack of opportunity to somewhere adjacent to the foe and;
3)The foe now takes -4 while ever I remain in their space and they aren't attacking me and;
4)If they move away so they are no longer taking that penalty, they take an attack of opportunity.
the mouser can as an immediate action spend 1 panache point to move 5 feet into an area of the attacker's space.
You move into an area of the attacker's space.
While the mouser is within a foe's space, she is considered to occupy her square within that foe's space.
While within a foe's space, you occupy the square you are in.
That's it. You are within your foe's space and you count as occupying the square you are in. You do not remain adjacent, as you had to move 5ft into their space to begin with. The mouser's space HAD to change, as you moved 5ft when spending the panache point.
Hi Aydin D'Ampfer,
Relatively new to the forums and was looking into some mouser build concepts online when I stumbled upon your thread.
In regards to your post above:
Aydin D'Ampfer wrote:
The only line of text in the Acrobatics description that deals with moving through the enemy's square is the last one:
" If you attempt to move through an enemy's space and fail the check, you lose the move action and provoke an attack of opportunity.".
This line does not at all state you must end the movement in any special way.
That is assumed to be limited by normal movement rules, which Mouser overwrites.
The mouser archetype doesn't overwrite the normal movement rules.
It is true that Underfoot Assault is a deed that upon activation let's us enter into the opponent's square in spite of those rules and remain there, but outside of activating the deed we are bound by the same rules as everyone else for movement.
In reference to the paragraph divisions, Underfoot Assault is divided into two paragraphs due to the way it works.
The first paragraph is about the movement and the second relates to the effects of having moved into that square. Both paragraphs as I see it were designed to work together specific to that ability - albeit there are other ways of getting into the squares as previously mentioned through size alterations and that.
Aydin D'Ampfer wrote:
The Mouser allows you to move within a foe's square, and occupy the same squares as your foe. This means, even for a medium foe, you can exist within the one square they occupy.
So the movement for your turn goes as follows:
1) I move adjacent to my enemy, into a threatened square.
2) I decide I want to Acrobatics for the remainder of my movement, to avoid AoO, and get to better positioning. I declare I am aiming to step into my opponent's square.
3) I make the Acrobatics check, beat the enemy CMD+5, and step into their square. If I were not a Mouser, this would be an invalid square for me to end my movement, and I must continue. As a Mouser, I can exist in this square.
4) I end my turn 'within' their square.
Re 3) Per my point above you are still bound by the normal movement rules for regular movement and athletics checks and as such it is not a valid square for movement purposes/landing zone.
It would defeat the point of putting a cost on Underfoot Assault and needing to spend panache points.
Does that make sense? I'm happy to hear a counter-argument, and or any supporting evidence to the contrary.
I mean at the end of the day if a group/DM are fine with it, and it doesn't become game breaking and everyone is having fun, you could always "house rule it" to operate as such for your games.
@Motzinee: Think you may be confusing the 5-foot radius around an enemy (adjacent) with space, being the total squares an enemy takes up.
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