It would be interesting to compare defensive aspects of a tankish (defensive lockdown, maneuver or area control) build of both new fighter and barbarian flavours. or ranger/monk, etc.
Similar with mobile builds, or ranged, reach or sneak attack for that matter.
Fighters are always going to have roughly twice as many feats as anyone else, but mostly identical stamina pool sizes: so their advantage would probably be possible synergy+flexibility, and not so much staying power.
Disruptive lockdown builds are somewhat trickier to pull off as non-fighters: as they're technically fighter only, even if there's sideways entries to the feats.
I'd assume crit focus/crit mastery heavy builds are a bit harder to access too.
Did barbs lose out in the fort save department from rage changes?
Some other 'fighter only' feats that are worth thinking about:
(yes, fighter only tends to never hold feats to fighter only, but its still worth discussing)
• disrupting shot
• disruptive/spellbreaker/shatterspell
• penetrating strike/greater penetrating strike
• weapon spec
• shield spec/greater shield focus/greater shield spec
• martial versatility/mastery
• pin down (especially the comparison to stand still)
also:
tower shield proficiency might bear mentioning? long shot i guess
4) Fighter is the only one that gets it.
Based on what everyone's posted so far I'm going with fighters get it for free at level 1, but the stamina pool is based on fighter level + constitution modifier. As written Core Rulebook+APG Barbarians who dip into fighter for 1 level will get more stamina than fighters.
My reasoning is that channel positive energy for clerics is keyed off cleric level. Unarmed Strike bonus damage is keyed off a monk's level. Paladin lay on hands is keyed off the Paladin level. I understand they wrote it to key off BAB so that if you introduce the feat any class can get the full benefit from it, but IMO it's a flawed design if you use it the special thing that fighters get. It also helps incentivize (beyond feats) staying in as a fighter. The level 20 capstone is meaningless for campaigns that finish in the level 12-16 range. However spellcaster's spells discourage people from multiclassing, rogue's sneak attack, barbarian's rage and monk's flurry of blows discourage multiclassing. Unless you're looking for some really cool feat chains (that often have the same opportunity cost in combat, meaning you're more likely to use a single feat chain more often then the others), multiclassing really isn't discouraged for fighters. This will help change that.
As written Core Rulebook+APG Barbarians who dip into fighter for 1 level will get more stamina than fighters.
Due to the rage changes (no increase in CON, temporary HP instead), I'm on the fence as to whether Barbs will be stacking any more CON than fighters.
I'd consider it an even split, if rage rounds are con based, and stamina is con based.
Are there any items/feats in the book that augment stamina pool, or similar?
I could see a fighter-only feat that shaved off one stamina usage per round, or something similar, being very useful: but that's probably getting into the realm of wishful thinking.
Due to the rage changes (no increase in CON, temporary HP instead), I'm on the fence as to whether Barbs will be stacking any more CON than fighters.
That's why I specified the Core Rulebook+APG Barbarian rather than the Unchained Barbarian.
Due to the rage changes (no increase in CON, temporary HP instead), I'm on the fence as to whether Barbs will be stacking any more CON than fighters.That's why I specified the Core Rulebook+APG Barbarian rather than the Unchained Barbarian.
Ah I see: makes sense.
From what I've heard, i'm reasonably keen to swap over to the unchained classes, as well as the stamina rules, but if you're avoiding the class changes, it could have some interesting consequences.
So, how does a paladin with the fatigued mercy do with the stamina system?paladins should stay away from stamina...
1. because they won't have that many combat feats anyway; and
2. because they will need to take a feat to gain a stamina pool; and
3. because 2 will result in even less combat feats they can take...Remember: akin to skill unlocks, combat tricks are cool yes, but they do not in themselves exceed the power of taking a feat.... it's ultimately only through the fighter, who has tons of combat feats, that stamina pool will ever have a meaning. The options are not earth shattering, but the fact that a fighter will gain half a dozen, then a dozen, etc. additional little combat options that he will basically be able to do react to a myriad of different situations in vario us ways that will grant him power untold above the more simple 'damage dealers' of the game.
I mean, let me spoil you on the benefits of the stamina system with an example of a normally very taxing feat chain that yields more or less bland results: ** spoiler omitted **
And the list goes on and on and on... from the simple Dodge feat to the more complex end of chain Spring Attack. Everything is made awesome. But unless you have dozens of feats like the fighter... not entirely critical for say, a paladin, to have...
Okay, the paladin doesn't do the stamina stuff himself, he heals his buddy the fighter.
Does the fighter get all his stamina back?
From what I've heard, i'm reasonably keen to swap over to the unchained classes, as well as the stamina rules, but if you're avoiding the class changes, it could have some interesting consequences.
I'm keen on adopting the Unchained Rogue and Unchained Summoner. I'm torn on the Unchained Monk and the Unchained Barbarian. I'll want to have a very close look at each of these classes before deciding.
Core Rulebook+Supplement Barbarians seem to be one of the more powerful martial classes. I don't find them to be particularly difficult. The only troubling part was the whole instantly die if you drop unconscious (unless you take the feat that lets you rage unconscious), but I'm considering porting over some 5th edition rules regarding death and dying (to help address aspects of dying unrelated to barbarians) so that would no longer be an issue.
Monks, if you (ab)use the right Archetypes, can also be pretty darn good so I'll be taking a very close look at them as well.
From what I've heard, i'm reasonably keen to swap over to the unchained classes, as well as the stamina rules, but if you're avoiding the class changes, it could have some interesting consequences.I'm keen on adopting the Unchained Rogue and Unchained Summoner. I'm torn on the Unchained Monk and the Unchained Barbarian. I'll want to have a very close look at each of these classes before deciding.
Core Rulebook+Supplement Barbarians seem to be one of the more powerful martial classes. I don't find them to be particularly difficult. The only troubling part was the whole instantly die if you drop unconscious (unless you take the feat that lets you rage unconscious), but I'm considering porting over some 5th edition rules regarding death and dying (to help address aspects of dying unrelated to barbarians) so that would no longer be an issue.
Monks, if you (ab)use the right Archetypes, can also be pretty darn good so I'll be taking a very close look at them as well.
My only concern with the unchained monk is the incompatibility with archetypes: which is one of my favourite systems in pathfinder.
The summoner i'm unable to comment on, as i've yet to have one in any of my games, and i've previously avoided the concept because of the stigma (however valid/invalid) of bogging down gameplay, and potentially broken combinations.
If the consensus is that the new one is faster and less skewy on the balance front, i'll add it to the list of classes i might try out, though.
EDIT:
realizing we're derailing from the fighter topic :)
I'd be curious if any of the people with the PDF have come up with any killer combinations of stamina + traditional builds that will 'power up' the build from its original state into something fantastic.
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I'm actually on the other side of the argument for the monk... I haven't looked at that class for years now and I so with the dozens of archetypes that were made for the class I had a bit of resistance to dive back in and "catch" up with hundreds of options for these guys... the unchained monk, however, taken as is without archetype, is now very interesting from my perspective... :)
(as I said before, I will now also consider the class for a one level dip almost assuredly due to full BAB, d10 and the bonus flurry attack that stacks with haste...)
(as I said before, I will now also consider the class for a one level dip almost assuredly due to full BAB, d10 and the bonus flurry attack that stacks with haste...)
I think that if you consider a class dippable, it's an indication of solid abilities: the only problems arise when you get too much for 1-2 level dips.
I quite like the idea that 2 levels of fighter equates to 2-3 feats worth of goodies (if you count the stamina pool as effectively a feat).
It's got to compete with things like evasion, sneak attack and divine grace, and those are some big shoes to fill, at least to my mind.
Disclaimer: I don't have the book yet.
I think the stamina system is going to be a huge bonus to fighters. As has been demonstrated in this thread already, a lot of GM's are going to restrict it to fighter only. For those games where other classes can take it as a feat, the fighter makes out better. It's just naturally more suited to capitalize on the mechanic.
To be honest, I do wish the barbarian entry in unchained had been a fighter entry instead. Refining and simplifying is nice and all, but I think the fighter could have benefited from some more serious reworking than the barbarian benefited from some tweaking. The point about the fighter getting more field mobility and skills is well taken.
Having said that, there are a few key subsystems which help the fighter out quite a bit in the book. Background skills, varient multiclassing, and stamina all merge together to give a very nice boost to the fighter. This was likely the reasoning that led to the page space for the Barbarian entry being spent on the Barbarian instead of the Fighter. In that regards, it's a very efficient decision. It has a drawback of making the fighter a lot weaker in PFS, where (in my uninformed opinion) those subsystems are unlikely to be instituted. That makes me a sad panda of a PFS player, but it's still very nice for home games.
So overall, I'm quite pleased with the boosts to fighter. Some points have been raised about mobility and saves which do hold true, but on the whole I'm happy with boost.
What I'm particularly excited about is the boosts to the longer feat chains. I can't wait to read them! I always felt like the longer chains never really gave enough to compensate for the investment. I'm looking forward to seeing what the stamina system does with them.
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now that you mention it, both monk and fighter are now succulent dips, say for a ranger or paladin that do not really care about spells... i.e. those who are somewhat happy with just divine grace and smite, or 1-2 favored enemies...
the fighter dip would have to be strategic if you rule that only fighter level derived combat feats can be enhanced via stamina pool points... such multiclass fighters would benefit greatly from the Extra Stamina feat (i.e. +3 stamina points) if the targeted combat feats offer a definite advantage for a particular build
now, the true optimizers will seek paladin and ranger archetypes that do away with armor feats or spells in exchange for something else! (if that's even possible...)
;)
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What I'm particularly excited about is the boosts to the longer feat chains. I can't wait to read them! I always felt like the longer chains never really gave enough to compensate for the investment. I'm looking forward to seeing what the stamina system does with them.
you're gonna love the Shield Master feat chain now... and you're no longer going to assume that Dodge/Mobility/Spring Attack is kind of a waste... even Vital Strike feat chain has gotten some love... the Stamina Pool for fighters is just bloody amazing, regardless of what kind of fighter you'll be... but boy oh boy would I hate to fight a high level Shield Master fighter boss now..... (great for play, but really tough if you meet them as enemy NPCs!)
uh it's not how it works. You don't need to take a feat At all. If you're a fighter you just get all these extra abilities for freeAh, ONE feat, with a major stamina expenditure, that boosts saves...and only if you're using a shield.
And still inferior to superstitious.
(sighs)
==Aelryinth
You need to take the SHield Master feat. Which, for a fighter, requires LEVEL TWELVE.
The ranger, of course, gets it at Six.
And you must then be a shield wielding fighter to get a save bonus!
Oh, joy.
==Aelryinth
Did barbs lose out in the fort save department from rage changes?Yes, Rage no longer gives a Fort Save bonus.
But as a Good Fort Save Class with Con-based Rage rounds...I doubt it's gonna matter all that much.
Not to mention feats like Raging Vitality Raging Brutality still use or modify Con.
Also builds that dump AC for HP+DR combo will want high con.
If you don't have shield master you will have other combat feats which yield other abilities. The combinations are almost infinite. The fun endless!
Why is this not a good news in your opinion?
Because Shields suck.
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To be fair, shields suck but are workable if you use them as a weapon in a TWF build. If the various sword and board feats have strong enough stamina boosts then sword and board TWF'ing could go from workable to good.
So from reading this thread, I gather this is what is required to fix the fighter:
Good Will save progression or a way to get approximately a +6 bonus via a class feature that is "always on" or nearly so. Iron Will should not be required to achieve this either. (Example: Disciplined Combatant (Ex) - While actively engaged in combat, the Fighter receives a +1 Will save for every three levels. This bonus is lost if the Fighter is flat-footed or otherwise denied his Dexterity bonus to AC. At 8th level, a Fighter only loses this bonus when Blinded, Cowering, Stunned or Helpless)
More Skill points... 4 + Int it sounds like... and dumping Int should not affect that, so in reality, we need Skills or skill-likes gained via class features somehow. (Example: Martial Expertise - A Fighter gains 1 rank of Profession (soldier) for every class level. The Fighter also gains a +1 bonus per 3 class levels on Engineering checks related to seige engines, defensive fortifications and other warfare related constructions and can make these checks untrained. Fighters also receive a +1 bonus per 5 class levels on Craft (armor) and Craft (weapons) checks for the purposes of repair only and reduce the cost of such checks by 10gp per class level. Lastly, while actively engaged in combat, Fighters receive a +1 bonus per 3 class levels on Perception checks to notice combat-related details and can make these checks untrained)
A movement bonus of at least 10' while wearing heavy armor, or a larger situational/limited use bonus. (Example: Tactical Positioning (Ex) - Once per day, a Fighter can gain an extra move action on his turn as long as he is not Charging, Running, or Withdrawing. The fighter gains an additional daily use of this ability for every 4 levels)
Class features that increase utility outside of combat that are not based on Skills (that's a Rogue schtick) but are also not "supernatural". (Example: Drill Seargent (Ex) - By adopting a commanding presence and barking orders, the Fighter can often get people to follow commands without thought. Targets of this ability can resist it with a successful Will save, the DC of which is equal to 10 + the Fighter's level. This ability can also be used to push people to work harder or longer than they otherwise might)
One or more class features that equate to "battlefield leadership" without being reliant on Charisma. (Example: At 5th level, once per day the Fighter can grant a bonus to Attack, Damage or AC to all allies that can see him against one target the Fighter has just attacked and hit in combat. This bonus is equal to +1 per 5 levels and lasts until the end of his next turn. The Fighter can use this ability an additional time per day for every 5 levels beyond 5th)
No amount of "cool" or features attached to a shield or one handed weapon will cause anyone to actually use one, unless of course damage is completely divorced from weapon type in some way.
If you don't have shield master you will have other combat feats which yield other abilities. The combinations are almost infinite. The fun endless!
Why is this not a good news in your opinion?
Because getting a house half built and walking away leaves a half built house behind, not something you want to live in!
I'll repeat myself AGAIN: Feats needed fixin' for the fighter. Everyone knows that.
An upgrade that helps scale combat feats so they are actually equal to class abilities is WELCOME.
Now, what about the Defensive, Recovery, Utility, Out of Combat and Anti-Magic abilities the fighter ALSO needs? That every other primary melee class has?
Oh, wait, Combat feats don't generally help with that.
Stamina doesn't seem to address that much at all.
Like this upgraded Shield Mastery. Like, ugh?
Paladin gets CHa to all saves starting at level 2, and anti-Will magic defenses.
Barbarian gets Superstitious to all saves against magic starting at level 2.
Ranger gets evasion and superior evasion to go with a good Reflex save, and has a reason to boost Will (more spells) as well as some later spell casting for defense.
The Fighter, at level 12, if he is a shield user, can finally spend a limited resource in combat to add his shield bonus to his saves for ONE ROUND.
If you let other melees do it, the Ranger can do the same thing at level SIX!
Like, UGH. This just totally annoys me.
==Aelryinth
If you don't have shield master you will have other combat feats which yield other abilities. The combinations are almost infinite. The fun endless!
Why is this not a good news in your opinion?
Because getting a house half built and walking away leaves a half built house behind, not something you want to live in!
I'll repeat myself AGAIN: Feats needed fixin' for the fighter. Everyone knows that.
An upgrade that helps scale combat feats so they are actually equal to class abilities is WELCOME.
Now, what about the Defensive, Recovery, Utility, Out of Combat and Anti-Magic abilities the fighter ALSO needs? That every other primary melee class has?
Oh, wait, Combat feats don't generally help with that.Stamina doesn't seem to address that much at all.
Like this upgraded Shield Mastery. Like, ugh?
Paladin gets CHa to all saves starting at level 2, and anti-Will magic defenses.
Barbarian gets Superstitious to all saves against magic starting at level 2.
Ranger gets evasion and superior evasion to go with a good Reflex save, and has a reason to boost Will (more spells) as well as some later spell casting for defense.The Fighter, at level 12, if he is a shield user, can finally spend a limited resource in combat to add his shield bonus to his saves for ONE ROUND.
If you let other melees do it, the Ranger can do the same thing at level SIX!
Like, UGH. This just totally annoys me.
==Aelryinth
I got you a present Aelryinth, check the house rules forum.
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Lots of appropriate stuff
1) A good Will Save can be made by having Bravery increase the power of Iron Will, raising it to +7 eventually (+12 against fear). Thus, it becomes elective, but the feat is more in the hands of a fighter even if its not a combat feat!
And because it references a fighter class ability, it scales smoothly and quickly, and its not something ANY OTHER CLASS CAN DO.
Lightning Reflexes can scale off Armor Training, and Fortitude off Weapon Training! Ding! the fighter can choose a class ability that gives him awesome saves, if he's so inclined.
That's how feats should work for fighter, and not just combat feats with a spender add-on.
2)General Improved Saves. a) Let the Fighter choose his one good save. Class choice! Maximum flexibility!
Give him some class abilities based on that choice.
Let his Will save scale off his best mental stat, and his fort and reflex saves scale off his best physical stat. Look! All around better saves.
3) He doesn't necessarily need more skill points at the start of the game, but he definitely does later on to reflect his training.
Use Bravery. Every time he gets a point of bravery, he gets another skill point a level and another class skill of his choice.
When he finally maxes it out, he'll have 7/level, more then a ranger.
Give him the option of giving up tower shield and heavy armor prof for +2 skill points.
Customizable! Cumulative! Reaches a good level! Refers back to afighter class ability so other classes can't do the same!
4) For a movement bonus, use Fleet. +5 Move when not limited by armor. Guess what...Fighters get Armor Training! Multiply the movement of fleet by your armor training bonus. At 7th, the fighter can now be as fast as a barbarian. At 11, as a Fleet Barbarian. At 16, faster then a barbarian, period.
And it scales, accumulates, and works off a fighter class ability.
5)Sure, have feats that affect skills that work uniquely based off fighter class abilities. Like, adding Bravery bonus to mental skills, Armor Training to Dex and Con skills, and Weapon Training to Str skills. It's a small bonus, but it accumulates.
Have Expertise add to war-centered skill checks. Between Expertise and Bravery, a fighter is rocking +11 to his Int check to play chess, and can beat smarty-pants wizard handily at high levels.
6) Sure, add combat leadership. it doesn't have to be much, it just has to be something to justify Fighters leading a group of men to battle. It has to be a class ability. There has to be a reason why a fighter should be in charge, why people want one in charge.
I simply added a new Tier of Marshal abilities in a large Aura effect as the fighter levels. Not huge, esp compared to a bard, but constant and broad area.
7) Most abilities should be totally independent of weapon, armor and other stuff...they should be class abilities. If you want specific bonuses, make them feats or techniques so it becomes an elective choice.
Compare Shield Master now to Shield Ward in 3.5E. Shield Ward added your Shield Bonus to reflex saves, touch AC, and against attempts to grapple, trample, bull rush, etc. It was a constant. And it came online at level 6. A much better feat all around.
JUST FIXING FIGHTER COMBAT FEATS LEAVES THE HOUSE HALF-BUILT.
So, ugh. Why didn't they just expand the stamina mechanic into useful general feats?!?
==Aelryinth
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uh it's not how it works. You don't need to take a feat At all. If you're a fighter you just get all these extra abilities for freeAh, ONE feat, with a major stamina expenditure, that boosts saves...and only if you're using a shield.
And still inferior to superstitious.
(sighs)
==Aelryinth
I've also decided to allow stamina to classes that stack with fighter levels for various reasons; like eldritch knight and ulfen guard...
What I'm particularly excited about is the boosts to the longer feat chains. I can't wait to read them! I always felt like the longer chains never really gave enough to compensate for the investment. I'm looking forward to seeing what the stamina system does with them.you're gonna love the Shield Master feat chain now... and you're no longer going to assume that Dodge/Mobility/Spring Attack is kind of a waste... even Vital Strike feat chain has gotten some love... the Stamina Pool for fighters is just bloody amazing, regardless of what kind of fighter you'll be... but boy oh boy would I hate to fight a high level Shield Master fighter boss now..... (great for play, but really tough if you meet them as enemy NPCs!)
The stamina system was obviously influenced by D&D 5e fighter manoeuvres that were on the cards early in the play-test of 5e.
Not a terribly original idea, and sadly the designers decided to also include a D&D 4e recharging mechanic (a terrible disassociated mechanic) and a waiting-to-be-abused starscream to hit bonus.
Lose the recharging mechanic and the 'don't-need-to-roll-any-dice' to hit bonus makes the stamina system useful in getting rid of the predictability of fighters as well as providing a minor nova ability.
I'm with Aelyrinth, it is no fix for the ailing Fighter class, not even close.
I'm leaning towards Free for Fighter, Feat for everyone else. I want the caster martial balance to generally to go a little more in the direction of martial. If the fighter still feels short, I might implement an addition that every time a fighter gets a (fighter) bonus feat they gain a permanent +1 or even +2 increase to their Stamina pool. Because I feel the pool is a little small considering how much some stamina uses cost and that would mitigate the fighters advantage from having so many feats.
I will still have 4 skill points/level house ruled for fighters though. Because they never deserved to have so few skill points.
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I'm leaning towards Free for Fighter, Feat for everyone else. I want the caster martial balance to generally to go a little more in the direction of martial. If the fighter still feels short, I might implement an addition that every time a fighter gets a (fighter) bonus feat they gain a permanent +1 or even +2 increase to their Stamina pool. Because I feel the pool is a little small considering how much some stamina uses cost and that would mitigate the fighters advantage from having so many feats.
I will still have 4 skill points/level house ruled for fighters though. Because they never deserved to have so few skill points.
Yes, it's a fallacy that Fighters get the most benefit from the stamina system. They have broader options than Rangers or Paladins but the usage is clearly regulated.
I think the stamina system is designed to be limited: its narrative is when combat gets desperate, martial characters do everything they can to win. Also it contains a 'heroic' signifier, pushing their martial skills beyond what is possible by a cleric or rogue.
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I'm leaning towards Free for Fighter, Feat for everyone else. I want the caster martial balance to generally to go a little more in the direction of martial. If the fighter still feels short, I might implement an addition that every time a fighter gets a (fighter) bonus feat they gain a permanent +1 or even +2 increase to their Stamina pool. Because I feel the pool is a little small considering how much some stamina uses cost and that would mitigate the fighters advantage from having so many feats.
I will still have 4 skill points/level house ruled for fighters though. Because they never deserved to have so few skill points.
Yes, it's a fallacy that Fighters get the most benefit from the stamina system. They have broader options than Rangers or Paladins but the usage is clearly regulated.
I think the stamina system is designed to be limited: its narrative is when combat gets desperate, martial characters do everything they can to win. Also it contains a 'heroic' signifier, pushing their martial skills beyond what is possible by a cleric or rogue.
Agreed. Until they "unchain" the fighter in another book, my opinion is to limit stamina to fighters to make them special (and by extension to anyone with a class feature that stacks with fighter levels, like Eldritch Knight and Ulfen Guard, the latter only if you take the Formal Training dedication)
Fighter isn't "fixed," but I'm not sure I expected them to be with Unchained. And that's ok, because the indirect things that Paizo did put out are, in my opinion, some really nice subsystems. Stamina is great, and all the effort put into giving every combat feat a bonus is much appreciated. Background skills are also fun, and skill consolidation might be something for me to try out in a new campaign. Variant multiclassing is also pretty nice. But the best part about everything introduced is that they set a precedent.
This means I can add in my own fighter-specific feats or class abilities that rely on stamina. I can fiddle with variant multiclassing, and now that I have a power level to work with I can compare my own variant multiclass paths to the ones Paizo produced. I can make Perception a background skill for fighters. I might even do something with the alternative iterative attack rules, but I'll have to look at those more.
Point is, Paizo wanted to give us a tool-box, to let us "become the designer," and they delivered. A lot of us are already there with homebrew stuff, but saying that what they did isn't sufficient is a little ungrateful; the options are great, and that's like being upset that Bethesda released modding tools for Skyrim instead of just introducing all that stuff themselves. The Unchained rogue isn't perfect, but there are some nice things there, and the monk isn't 100% fixed but it once again gives me a precedent for my own homebrews. The streamlined barbarian with stances is nice, and stance rage powers are an interesting addition (stamina-based fighter weapon stances based on weapon training?!), and I'm enjoying the variant spellcasting stuff. So all in all I'm pretty happy. Some things didn't go far enough, but that's alright for me and my table. The fighter can more easily be cracked wide open now, and I have a lot of options to work with for my own changes.
I also love the picture of the "<--- burning orphanage or anti-paladin castle --->" crossroads.
I was thinking; If the fighter gets exclusive stamina the base ability would make him about the most accurate class in the game with a stamina bonus, weapon training, full BAB, and access to greater weapon focus. Does this mean that the Fighter has more room to shore up other weaknesses? Like, how much of a priority is it to max out Dex or strength if the fighter has so many accuracy boosts?
That's true, and accuracy/damage has never been the fighter's weakness. For Strength builds, especially 2handers, I'm sure it'd still be a priority. Dexterity, though, is an interesting question, and might allow the fighter to shore up Con and Str (maybe even Wis) more for those kinds of builds. I think Pathfinder would do well to make Dex-to-damage more widely available. I've houseruled that Weapon Finesse adds Dex to damage on any light or finessable weapon for years now, and there haven't been any issues.
There are also some pretty solid combat tricks that are almost like minor deeds in some respects, meaning that a fighter-exclusive stamina pool gives them a steadily growing, quickly recharging pool of decent combat abilities. I will say that the system doesn't do much to shore up the fighter's weaknesses, but it amplifies their strengths. I'm not sure quite yet how it'll operate in practice, but there is some potential that the fighter's stronger fighting abilities will give some leeway to build up other areas with feats and magic items.
Yeah, the problem is accuracy and damage have never been the problem, so giving them more doesn't do anything for them.
Utility.
Defense/saves.
Movement.
Out of combat.
Skills.
Sensory.
Leadership.
Those are the problems with the fighter.
But when you've only got 5 class features +featcasting (did I say that? 11 bonus feats = 'just spellcasting'? I did!), what do you expect?
==Aelryinth
Yeah, the fighter's real issue is a lack of interesting class features. Feats aren't really features unless you go out of your way to design feats that are fighter-specific, but if you do that you might as well just do something like Rogue Talents or Rage Powers: any barbarian can select almost any feat a fighter can, but a fighter can never get a rage power.
I made up my own homebrew a couple months ago, and I've been pretty pleased with it. It's easy enough to change it to get the stamina stuff right off the bat, swap a couple things here and there.
Weapon Training and Armor Training need to be significant or interesting mechanics that actually set a fighter apart (incidentally, I've been meaning to add in Dodge bonus to AC for Armor Training; I think that's a much better idea than raising the Dex cap). A change to fighter class features for Unchained wouldn't have been too much, but I'm thinking that Paizo considered stamina to be enough. Which I can understand, since Stamina is cool, but it isn't the end fix.
The fighter needs some way of doing something besides "I SMACK IT AGAIN" in combat, which stamina sort of helps, but not in the way it needs: being able to do things that control the battlefield or are demonstrably more powerful or utilitarian than a comparable feat are necessary. They need to be on par with a Rage Power or there's nothing that makes fighter distinct from a similarly-feated barbarian, except for the fact that they don't get the barbarian's cool stuff.
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If you have a cleric in the party that takes good care of your fighter, you'll have fun. Same applies to barbarians.
If you play in a party without a cleric, with a bunch of people who NEVER want to take one for the team, you'll never be happy playing rogue or fighter (low will saves). In such a party, you must recognize that damage must take a bit of a backseat and that you should invest in the two Iron Will feats. It's a bummer, I know, but if you want to truly go nuts with a purely offensive fighter find a player that will play a cleric or bard... or take Leadership to get your own personal Jesus.
For me Stamina has already solved most of those other problems indirectly if you believe in third party products.
Low Will Saves: barbarian, fighter, monk (unchained), rogue, alchemist, cavalier, gunslinger, ninja, samurai, bloodrager, brawler, hunter, slayer, swashbuckler.
If you play one of these classes, pay attention to party composition...
To some extent Barbiarian doesn't count.
Didn't the ACG have something that let you replace will saves with some other kind of save?
It may be worth it more to just nerf will save effects. If bad will saves are as frequent and detrimental as the forums usually imply (not in my games, plus 12 of the classes on that list have some sort of third party defense for will saves) and are as unfun then most of that list isn't worth playing, especially if they have any kind of combat efficiency.
Yeah, the fighter's real issue is a lack of interesting class features. Feats aren't really features unless you go out of your way to design feats that are fighter-specific, but if you do that you might as well just do something like Rogue Talents or Rage Powers: any barbarian can select almost any feat a fighter can, but a fighter can never get a rage power.
I made up my own homebrew a couple months ago, and I've been pretty pleased with it. It's easy enough to change it to get the stamina stuff right off the bat, swap a couple things here and there.
Weapon Training and Armor Training need to be significant or interesting mechanics that actually set a fighter apart (incidentally, I've been meaning to add in Dodge bonus to AC for Armor Training; I think that's a much better idea than raising the Dex cap). A change to fighter class features for Unchained wouldn't have been too much, but I'm thinking that Paizo considered stamina to be enough. Which I can understand, since Stamina is cool, but it isn't the end fix.
The fighter needs some way of doing something besides "I SMACK IT AGAIN" in combat, which stamina sort of helps, but not in the way it needs: being able to do things that control the battlefield or are demonstrably more powerful or utilitarian than a comparable feat are necessary. They need to be on par with a Rage Power or there's nothing that makes fighter distinct from a similarly-feated barbarian, except for the fact that they don't get the barbarian's cool stuff.
If Paizo thinks the stamina system is a Fighter Fix, then I must ask: have they actually played the Pathfinder Game? Seriously.
I'm currently playing a Fighter in ROTRL (anniversary edition) with consolidated feat trees (15 feats at 5th level) and a Fighter-only version of the Leadership feat (4 1st-level warrior NPC retainers at 5th level).
The Druid character in the party is an equal in combat (actually slightly better) +has quite a few powerful out-of-combat options my Fighter does not have.