Pfsrd wrote: Spectral Shroud: This thin, bleached cloth covers the wearer’s entire torso. Some also cover the wearer’s face, but don’t interfere with the wearer’s vision. The morbid burial shroud grants the wearer some affinity with the spectral dead.
The wearer can discern invisible or ethereal creatures as though using see invisibility. Once per day, the wearer can become incorporeal for 10 rounds and gain a fly speed equal to half his base speed with perfect maneuverability.The wearer can’t attack while incorporeal, but can dismiss the effect as a move action.
Pfsrd wrote: An incorporeal creature has no physical body. It can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons, and spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities. It is immune to all nonmagical attack forms. Even when hit by spells or magic weapons, it takes only half damage from a corporeal source (except for channel energy). Although it is not a magical attack, holy water can affect incorporeal undead. Corporeal spells and effects that do not cause damage only have a 50% chance of affecting an incorporeal creature. Force spells and effects, such as from a magic missile, affect an incorporeal creature normally. I have a couple of questions about this:
1) Can the incorporeal character cast a spell normally against corporeal opponents or does the 50% miss chance apply to him? (I believe, since there is nothing stating the contrary, that it does not apply and the char can cast spells normally)
2) In the spectral shroud it states: "The wearer can not attack while incorporeal". Does this mean however that I can cast non aggressive spells like summon monster? (I believe so)
Any help with this would be appreciated
thanks all
I have to say, prior to answering, that this was not my former position about the subject of incorporeality, but after arguing with other, who are wiser than me, over it, my standing is like follows:
1) Yes. Being incorporeal is a bonus, such as being invisible, or being hasted, or whatever bonus you can imagine. As a bonus, and not specifically stated on the opposite, it can only give benefits. There are maybe few occasions where a bonus applies some kind of penalty, but in such cases, the penalty is specified on the rules. When not specified, and having two options, you must consider the most beneficial option for the target of the bonus.
2) I would say yes, although the summoned creatures won't be incorporeal if they wouldn't naturally be in other circumstances.
Numarak wrote: I have to say, prior to answering, that this was not my former position about the subject of incorporeality, but after arguing with other, who are wiser than me, over it, my standing is like follows:
1) Yes. Being incorporeal is a bonus, such as being invisible, or being hasted, or whatever bonus you can imagine. As a bonus, and not specifically stated on the opposite, it can only give benefits. There are maybe few occasions where a bonus applies some kind of penalty, but in such cases, the penalty is specified on the rules. When not specified, and having two options, you must consider the most beneficial option for the target of the bonus.
2) I would say yes, although the summoned creatures won't be incorporeal if they wouldn't naturally be in other circumstances.
yes thats what I believe as well, and of course the summoned monsters would not be incorporeal since they do not have the shroud.
Numarak, whoever told you that being in a state or being affected by a rule can only have benefits and not penalties is flat out wrong. While most effects turn out to be purely beneficial or detrimental, this is not required, and occasionally what is normally seen as a "bonus" can have negative repercussions.
The item turns you incorporeal, thus you gain all the benefits and drawbacks of being in that state.
The item additionally gives you a fly speed and prevents you from attacking.
The 50% chance appears to be only for corporeal creatures attacking incorporeal ones.
(but if someone finds a rules that states it works both ways, it would also apply to the character)
As for casting other spells like Summon Monster, these are not considered a direct attack, so you should be able to cast them.
While I have a twinging recollection that such spells would affect the ethereal plane instead of the material, I believe this concept is a holdover from previous editions and these spells will actually manifest on the material plane in pathfinder.
Byakko wrote: While I have a twinging recollection that such spells would affect the ethereal plane instead of the material, I believe this concept is a holdover from previous editions and these spells will actually manifest on the material plane in pathfinder. You're thinking of what would happen if the caster is ethereal, not incorporeal. They're two completely separate (but very similar) states.
Yup, etherealness and incorporeality are two separate and distinct things now in Pathfinder.
But, anyway, I will order my argumentation in 2 points, one refers to Bonus, and another to Rules.
A) (About bonus): a bonus does what it says it does, and in case of doubt, consider it for what it is, a bonus, never a penalty.
B) (About rules): rules usually do not need interpretation. Worst possible picture is when you add words to a rule, and afterwards, you interpret that rule.
In this particular case. Do the rules for Incorporeal say anything about incorporeal casters not affecting corporeal targets? No. There is no such statement anywhere. If you add those words, you are making assumptions[Point B].
If there are no such words, could we interpret it like they were there?[Point A] I would not recommend it, because you are penalizing someone who is under the effects of a bonus -such as being incorporeal-.
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What drawbacks are listed for being incorporeal?
I actually agree with you about incorporeality, in general.
I just found the argument you presented to be a bit off: being incorporeal isn't innately a "bonus" and you don't automatically default to whatever is most beneficial to the creature.
The term "bonus" only really comes up when ability score modifiers are involved, because some effects only make use of positive and not negative values. (afaik)
Yes, I might have been more accurate, the idea was as follows:
When you check the universal monster rules, Incorporeal(Ex) is listed as a Defensive Ability, while Light Blindness (Ex) is listed as a Weakness.
When a question regarding these two abilities rises, because on their description the answer is not specified, I would consider the most beneficial for Incorporeal, because it is a Defensive Ability and the most detrimental for Light Blindness, because it is a Weakness.
Not that that I will construct rules as I play, but only if I could not answer one specific question such as the posted by the OP, with the given rules.
v.g. Imagine that under Light Blindness was not described that the Daylight spell affects those creatures, my reasoning would say, as Light Blindness is a penalty, a Weakness, I would consider Daylight affecting those creatures. Luckily most of the cases are covered and they do not need interpretation.
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