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1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
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I am trying to design an encounter, and want to be sure of all the rules interactions.
The idea is to have Goblins in the canopy of a heavily forested area harassing the party below.
Goblins: Tree Runner, Cave Crawler.
Warrior: Hold ropes tied to other Goblins. Move Action to Haul (Climb) upwards, Standard Action to use "Lead From the Back".
Rogue: Has ropes tied to self and held by others and is Hauled (Climb) back into the canopy. Uses "Death from Above" and has both Rogue Archetypes of Roof Runner and Scout.
Assuming Medium sized Targets:
1) Does using a rope to Haul a load upwards use a Move Action?
2) When using a rope to Haul a load upwards, is there a check?
3) How far may a load be raised after a single Action?
4) How do the "Same Source" rules interact with having multiple Goblins use "Lead From the Back"?
5) If a character deliberately jumps down a height of at least 10 feet above the height of the Target, may it count as a Charge?
5A) If allowed, and the character landed in the same square as the Target, is it true that the character would both Provoke for entering the square, and also be shunted to the nearest adjacent empty square?
5B) If allowed, may an empty square adjacent to the Target be allowed for landing?
5i) If allowed, does the attack take place while the character is still 5 feet off the ground, with 5 feet of falling after the Charge is resolved?
6) If the Warriors start swinging the Rogue around in a circle, does that movement Provoke, and does it count against the movement of the Rogue?
This tactic is not expected to be highly effective, just unusual; catastrophic failure is expected.
First, let me say that it may be easier (and less time consuming) to just make up some reasonable, consistent rules for the encounter. Don't get too caught by the rules and just come up with something that's fun and fair. However, as it's still good to consult existing rules, let me try to help:
1-3) Find out the rope's weight (or effective weight if only part of it is being moved) and consult the standard rules for encumbrance.
4) These would count as same source. The goblins will have an overlapping +1 buff.
5) While the rules are vague on this, normally you must be moving under your own volition to count as charging. ie, gravity doesn't count. However, there's a feat out there that lets you charge while swinging from vines (can't remember the name). With this feat, I'd say it'd be reasonable for them to charge how you'd like.
5A/5B) I would have them charge at a slight angle to make them wind up in an adjacent square. However, if they truly dropped straight down, then yes, they would provoke for entering the square. They don't get automatically shunted to an adjacent square - they'll be prone in that square. I believe this is covered in either the Acrobatics skill or the general Movement rules for accidentally winding up in illegal spaces.
5i) It depends on the angle you having them coming at and how elaborate you want to track the "3D" aspects of the fight, but yes, they'd likely still be airborne upon making their attack.
6) Normally only movement of your own volition provokes and consumes movement. However, this is not a normal situation or encounter. You may wish to model this interaction based on Mounted Combat rules for the purpose of how their actions are split/consumed when acting in unison.
Hey guys, remember that time we fought the goblin pinata? That was really funny. Too bad he got swung head first into a tree so soon and ended the fun.
I would say that question 6 is answered by this post about falling provoking AOOs.
The pinata would provoke, unless he managed to use Acrobatics to avoid getting attacked.
0) Or maybe MONKEY GOBLINS?
1) Hauling someone back into a tree seems a bit ordinary for goblins. These are reckless miscreants! What if the other end of the rope is tied to a 50-lb rock as a counterweight... then the goblin in the tree merely needs to shove the rock off the branch, and it yanks the other goblin back up, which could be either a move or swift action? Or the goblin in the tree can try to throw the big rock at an adventurer on the ground, doing 2d6 damage as a ranged touch attack against anyone within 5 feet of the tree.
Then the rogue grabs onto a new rope, and jumps down again, only to repeat, using his climbing skill to easily switch to fresh branches. It's a decidedly goblin tactics.
5) Yes, it absolutely is a charge. People of the River defines rules for swinging from a rope at someone, which can be found on this page of the SRD. Suffice to say, the rogue could swing from one branch, Tarzan-style, and end in the other—treated as a charge, and provoking an AoO only after the attack connects.
And if swinging at someone from a rope is a charge, falling on them should be as well.
6) You never provoke an AoO from someone flat-footed—if they don't know the rogue is there, his first attack is never going to provoke (and would actually count as a sneak attack).
baradakas, that's a really old thread, and I feel James Jacob is in error in this particular case. In general, if you're in free fall, you don't provoke AoOs. Technically, there are no vertical squares either. You can't charge if you're in free fall as you're not in control of your movement.
thuderbeard, on 5) yep! That's the rule I was remembering. I thought it was a feat, but apparently it's open to anyone who happens to be swinging around on vines or ropes. Note that this movement does provoke and is treated as a charge, as indicated. This is different than falling because you're still moving in a controlled fashion. The rules seem incomplete, though... it doesn't indicate how far you can move in a round while swinging (based on normal land speed?), among other things.
You could definitely have a bit of fun with the goblins scurrying up or being yanked back into the trees. Then have then spend a turn trying to re-stealth before jumping again.
Be sure to have some goblins accidentally fail to arrest their fall and hit the ground headfirst.
Also, if you go with large counterweight rocks, make sure at least one of them winds up following the goblin... ;)
@Byakko: It specifically provokes an AoO when you move away, like it normally would. If you're just dropping on someone, you're never really moving away from them, so I'd say the AoO would occur during yanking.
And as for how far you can swing, that's probably determined by the length of the rope (at least on short ropes, you take a full action to swing down, back up, and catch yourself on the other side). Pendulum swing speed is ONLY affected by their length, and you really don't want to do the math involved.
Many thanks for the help and ideas.
I am aware that an uncontrolled fall cannot count as a charge, yet:
Acrobatics wrote: When you deliberately fall any distance, even as a result of a missed jump, a DC 15 Acrobatics skill check allows you to ignore the first 10 feet fallen, although you still end up prone if you take damage from a fall. Also:
Talent: Expert Leaper wrote: Benefit: When making jump checks, the rogue is always considered to have a running start. Also, when the rogue deliberately falls, a DC 15 Acrobatics check allows her to ignore the first 20 feet fallen, instead of the first 10 feet. If the fall is deliberate, within a safe range, and a successful Acrobatics check is made, you land safely on your feet; how is this fall uncontrolled?
Does the Slow Fall ability of the Monk work for a falling Charge?
Slow Fall wrote: At 4th level or higher, a monk within arm's reach of a wall can use it to slow his descent. When first gaining this ability, he takes damage as if the fall were 20 feet shorter than it actually is. The monk's ability to slow his fall (that is, to reduce the effective distance of the fall when next to a wall) improves with his monk level until at 20th level he can use a nearby wall to slow his descent and fall any distance without harm. What of Tumbling Descent from the Rogue Archetype: Roof Runner?
Tumbling Descent wrote: At 2nd level, a roof runner can use her Acrobatics skill to attempt a rapid descent from a rooftop or another surface, ricocheting against another surface and then diving through an opening (such as a balcony or window) directly below. So long as she has at least two surfaces no farther than 10 feet apart to bounce against, she can ricochet her body back from one to the next, descending great distances with a single check. The DC is 10 + 5 for every additional 10-foot increment descended beyond the initial 10 feet dropped. If she fails, she falls the full distance. This Talent doesn't seem to treat the distance as falling at all, unless the roll is failed. While it would likely ruin Stealth, the implied horizontal movement during the descent isn't counted against a character's movement, so may it count as traversing a straight line for a Charge?
Yet more,
Leopard (Cat, Great) wrote: The statistics presented here can describe any feline of similar size, such as jaguars, panthers, and mountain lions—what differentiates these big cats from the similarly sized cheetah is primarily their habitats—leopards and their kin prefer to hunt at night and ambush their prey from above, pouncing down from trees or high rocks. How does the Leopard achieve it's Pounce in this way, mechanically? If the fall is controlled, must a character jump 10 feet horizontally for this to work?
It seems like most of these abilities are more concerned with slowing decent and maneuvering to reduce falling damage rather than performing a controlled, unhindered, accelerated charge at a target. (the leopard cat's text, on the other hand, is mostly descriptive fluff, imho)
In any case, the rules are a bit murky, so there's probably enough flexibility to allow this sort of thing especially as it adds to the flavor of the encounter. You can always explain that goblins have received special training for this tactic, so as to not set a general precedent.
I don't believe I can support it as raw, but I have always treated 3-D battles as if it's just square grids stacked upon square grids, like a Rubik's Cube. Anything capable of moving vertically would be capable of using movement-related maneuvers vertically, like charging or bullrushing or overrunning.
Pursuant to that, I consider a controlled jump onto an enemy to be a vertical charge - everybody is capable of moving vertically as long as it's down, and as long as you don't mind the impact that damages YOU at the end of your vertical movement (heck, even if you do mind the impact but do it anyway).
Ergo, I see that anybody brave/reckless/foolish enough to jump out of a tree, weapon in hand, and land on a foe standing below them should be able to charge.
Of course, it's gets really ugly when that foe has a readied reach weapon and braces it against the charge...
After the charge is resolved, the jumper ends up in an adjacent square, unless he killed or knocked unconscious his target, in which case he can end up in that square. If he blows his jump check, he's prone. Damage taken from readied attacks affects the DC of that jump check like it would affect a combat maneuver.
Seems reasonable enough, though not supported by RAW.
Yeah... at this point, you're in the realm of DM fiat—as long as the adventure is fun, none of your players should get nitpicky.
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