Durngrun, *sighs* look, this is supposed to be a friendly discussion.
Then stop with the condescension.
I have not been condescending, I have been trying to find common ground with you only to have you slap me in the face and call it condescending. (Note, this was after I apologized...which you ignored.)
Durngrun, you have been very frustrating. Even after other people explained it to you you STILL don't understand the debate. You wouldn't respond in a reasonable manner to many of my posts, instead focusing on whatever point you wanted to make. But, I apologize if I came off negatively.
Seven minutes later...
Durngrun, please read our positions again. When you can repeat back what my position means (especially the part in the parenthesis) we can continue.
Yeah, my bad for ignoring that.
Exactly, you called that condescension when that is a standard method for trying to find common ground. I had been doing that with you (trying to repeat back what I understood of your position) several times by then. I was trying to get you to do the same and you 'slapped me' for it and called it condescension? Sheesh man.
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I've read probably about 2/3 of the posts. When I saw all-caps or bold sentences, I skipped by, because I think that was just arguing by being louder. Before I state my position, I should say that since none of us are devs, it doesn't really matter. Until someone with a badge makes a call, it's just argument for argument's sake. That being said (as well as an admission that I like a good argument), in the end, I tend to come down with Gauss.
Let's imagine Pathfinder Lodge training grounds. At L3, fighters all go off to their various instructors. Two-Handers go to their trainer and learn how to apply their full strength to an overhand blow, brawlers go to specific training for close weapons, and everybody else goes wherever their specific chosen specialty goes.
A large portion of those people go to the Armor Training grounds. They learn little convenient tricks about armor - "No, your breastplate is not supposed to fit that low. Yes, it's uncomfortable around your neck, but it lets you move. Draeus, if you'll thread the strap on that shin plate through your sock - oh, look, you've darned the holes closed. Those were intentional." These tricks, as well as practice donning, removing, and fighting in your armor, make it possible for a fighter to move a little faster.
At Level 7, they do the same thing. Each one goes off to his own class, where they gain abilities and training.
NO L3 fighter benefits from taking the 2nd Armor Training class. NONE. Because they're only level 3, and that training session is only open to L7 Fighters. So any benefit that gives them AT2 is a magical extension of the training they already had.
Now, what about the sash? This sash effectively increases the efficiency of the knowledge you already have. If you've been to the class, your knowledge thereof increases. If you haven't been to the class, then nothing happens.
Of course, by that logic, the L1 basic fighter would get no benefit from this item, but since it's unlikely they'll manage to afford it without gaining some experience along the way, I doubt that would ever be an issue.
tl;dr: IMO, The sash works because it increases the effectiveness of training you've already had, not by imparting to you new training if it applies.
How does a virtual level increase grant an ability that an actual level increase does not?
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How does a virtual level increase grant an ability that an actual level increase does not?
Magic :)
Seriously, that's how. Magic. It extends the armor training knowledge you already had magically, rather than through actual training. The fact that the Dragoon will go to a different class on Level-Up day does not negate the Armor Training knowledge he already has, and the sash works on the knowledge he already has.
How does a virtual level increase grant an ability that an actual level increase does not?
This was the essence of my position also. If you don't get the ability or improvements when you organically reach level 7, then surely you don't get them when you are treated as level 7.
You've given up those abilities or improvements. They don't exist for you any more.
Anyway, I'll bow out again swiftly and politely :)
How does a virtual level increase grant an ability that an actual level increase does not?Magic :)
Seriously, that's how. Magic. It extends the armor training knowledge you already had magically, rather than through actual training. The fact that the Dragoon will go to a different class on Level-Up day does not negate the Armor Training knowledge he already has, and the sash works on the knowledge he already has.
So my buddy and I are both 3rd level Fighter(Dragoons). On Level-Up Day he gets to pretend he is four levels higher, I actually get to be four levels higher. He gets an ability that I cannot get?
He can purchase a Sash too. Nothing stopping him.
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So my buddy and I are both 3rd level Fighter(Dragoons). On Level-Up Day he gets to pretend he is four levels higher, I actually get to be four levels higher. He gets an ability that I cannot get?
Well, he doesn't pretend to be four levels higher. He goes to the same class you go to. But the effect of the sash is that he has a deeper (magical) understanding of the materials covered. (If he were to later take off the sash, he would lose that magical understanding.) And yes, he gets an ability that you cannot get, because he has an item that you don't.
If you have a ring of feather-fall, and you both run off the edge of a cliff, he will fall to his death. You will not. You will have an ability he does not have, since you have an item he does not.
edit: "cannot get" is deceptive. You can't get that ability until you buy the sash. But once you have it, you can get and use the ability simply by putting the item on.
He can purchase a Sash too. Nothing stopping him.
/facepalm
So my buddy and I are both 3rd level Fighter(Dragoons). On Level-Up Day he gets to pretend he is four levels higher, I actually get to be four levels higher. He gets an ability that I cannot get?Well, he doesn't pretend to be four levels higher. He goes to the same class you go to. But the effect of the sash is that he has a deeper (magical) understanding of the materials covered. (If he were to later take off the sash, he would lose that magical understanding.) And yes, he gets an ability that you cannot get, because he has an item that you don't.
If you have a ring of feather-fall, and you both run off the edge of a cliff, he will fall to his death. You will not. You will have an ability he does not have, since you have an item he does not.
edit: "cannot get" is deceptive. You can't get that ability until you buy the sash. But once you have it, you can get and use the ability simply by putting the item on.
SASH OF THE WAR CHAMPION
Aura moderate abjuration; CL 9th
Slot chest; Price 4,000 gp; Weight 1 lb.
DESCRIPTIONThis bright red strip of cloth, stitched with images of a cheering crowd throwing garlands toward a chariot, fits across the wearer's shoulders and then diagonally down his chest to reach his opposite hip. The wearer treats his fighter level as 4 higher than normal for the purpose of the armor training and bravery class features.
Treats his level as 4 higher, not advances Armor Training by four levels.
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SASH OF THE WAR CHAMPION
Aura moderate abjuration; CL 9th
Slot chest; Price 4,000 gp; Weight 1 lb.
DESCRIPTIONThis bright red strip of cloth, stitched with images of a cheering crowd throwing garlands toward a chariot, fits across the wearer's shoulders and then diagonally down his chest to reach his opposite hip. The wearer treats his fighter level as 4 higher than normal for the purpose of the armor training and bravery class features.
Don't forget the next clause!
The only two things affected by the advanced level are armor training and bravery. So naturally it is through the lens of those features that the level increase should be viewed.
Armor Training is built like any other ability. It is a single ability with 4 stages (determined by level). As with any other ability each increase can be traded away.
Archetypes could trade away ability increases for Wild Shape, for Channel Energy, etc. Would trading away an increase for Wild Shape prevent you from increasing it via some other means? No.
Why? Because you still have the ability.
The sash increases the level of Armor Training (treats his level as 4 higher for the purposes of Armor Training). Since the level determines the ability granted you gain anything commensurate with that level.
Dragoons do not progress past level 3 for Armor Training. This is because they have traded away their level 7, 11, and 15 advancements. However, they still have the ability Armor Training, they have only lost the 3 advancements.
This makes them eligible for abilities and items that increase Armor Training.
Thus, with a Sash, they can reach level 7 (4 higher than normal) and thus, as per Armor Training, they gain certain abilities at level 7.
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And that is me staying polite about this statement.
Which we certainly appreciate, by the way.
Yeah no, any reading that says dragoon gains armor training 2 is stretched at best.
I also appreciate your opinion, though I'm afraid I don't exactly understand it. Would you mind to explain to us how you arrived there?
Eh, actually, I have to go. This has been a very interesting exercise. I'm not sure I'm going to convince anyone of my position, but it's been fun nonetheless. However, I have other business today, so I'm going to step away from the mic. Gauss can resume his stalwart defense!
Armor Training is built like any other ability. It is a single ability with 4 stages (determined by level). As with any other ability each increase can be traded away.
Archetypes could trade away ability increases for Wild Shape, for Channel Energy, etc. Would trading away an increase for Wild Shape prevent you from increasing it via some other means? No.
Why? Because you still have the ability.The sash increases the level of Armor Training (treats his level as 4 higher for the purposes of Armor Training). Since the level determines the ability granted you gain anything commensurate with that level.
Dragoons do not progress past level 3 for Armor Training. This is because they have traded away their level 7, 11, and 15 advancements. However, they still have the ability Armor Training, they have only lost the 3 advancements.
This makes them eligible for abilities and items that increase Armor Training.
Thus, with a Sash, they can reach level 7 (4 higher than normal) and thus, as per Armor Training, they gain certain abilities at level 7.
For the third time...
Alright, I'm going to make this easy. There are archetypes that change out say, Channel Energy dice and whatnot. Are you saying then that Channel Energy is a separate ability every other level? How about Sneak Attack?
Thats kinda what Gauss was getting at. it's fairly simple.
I'm a 15th level Evangelist, I put on a magic item that treats my class level as five levels higher for Channel Energy. What is my Channel Energy ability?
Sermonic Performance: An evangelist gains the ability to deliver a select number of supernatural and spell-like performances through the force and power of her divinely inspired preaching and exhortation. This ability is similar in all respects to bardic performance as used by a bard of the same level (including interactions with feats, spells, and prestige classes), using Perform (oratory) as the evangelist's performance skill. However, an evangelist gains only the following types of bardic performance: countersong, fascinate, and inspire courage at 1st level; inspire greatness at 9th level; and inspire heroics at 15th level. Sermonic performance replaces the 1st-, 9th-, and 15th-level channel energy abilities. This caps the cleric's channel energy damage at 7d6 points.
Sermonic Performance:
RAW: 7d6
RAI: 10d6
Specifically: Due to the wording of Sermonic Perfomance ("This caps the cleric's channel energy damage at 7d6 points.") you cannot ever benefit from magic items that raise the level of your ability (or even raise the dice, such as a Phylactery of Positive Channeling).
It is clear that the RAI is not to limit the damage from magic items raising it but to indicate what the total math is at the end.
Either way, it is a bad example because it brings into play specific vs general rules where the specific rule capping the damage dice makes it so that it cannot benefit from a magic item that raises damage dice.
No such specific rule exists in the discussion regarding Armor Training.
Note: in the future, you may want to actually discuss rather than fire off these loaded questions without discussion. They are usually interpreted by people as some form of bait. People often ignore bait.
It is why I discuss my questions rather than just post them as a form of standing bait. I usually ask a question and then I post my own answer or otherwise indicate what my stance is on the question I asked.
You didn't even answer his questions, instead you fired off your own without answering them. That is pretty rude and why I ignored it but since you keep insisting, Ill rise to the bait.
I'm a fan of the Socratic method.
That explains a lot, the Socratic method is quite adversarial in nature and not really polite debate unless all parties agree to it's use.
It also requires that you actually ANSWER the questions put to you, something you are not doing by responding to questions with your own question rather than an answer of some kind.
Otherwise, people just engage in a long string of questions none of which have answers.
I've never thought of asking questions as being adversarial. I feel as though I've answered questions if not directly then in general. I would say I have at the very least made my position known.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Durngrun Stonebreaker, you are taking that FAQ out of context. The FAQ's context is that Armor Training 2 and the level 7 advancement in the Armor Training ability are the SAME THING.Again, the item does not advance Armour Training, it allows a character to treat his level as four levels higher.
+1 There is no different in a level 4 Dragoon with the Sash and a level 8 Dragoon without the Sash in regards to Armor Training. Neither have move in Heavy Plate. That is all the Sash does, increase your Fighter levels by 4 and since your Fighter levels are modified by your Archetype, you may get varied benefits from using the Sash if the Archetype swapped out higher level Armor Training advancement.
cite any class ability text (not table) that uses the terms "Armor Training 2" or "Armor Training 3" or Armor Training 4". You won't find one.
The archetypes that swap out Armor Training 2 etc.
Ultimately, this doesn't sound like something that all parties can agree. So we each need to understand that both interpretations are RAW, even if we don't agree to the other interpretation.
Just to point out, in my "baiting" post, the question was asked; is Channel Energy one ability or multiple abilities. I bolded the section that refer to channel energy abilities (plural). You say the cap is to indicate the total math where I might argue it reinforces the idea that you cannot get back what an archetype trades away.
I would offer as further evidence:
Monk: Can a qinggong monk take a second archetype if the character doesn't swap out abilities the second archetype requires?
Yes. However, the other archetype takes priority over the various abilities granted at each level, and the character can't delay taking an ability that the other archetype replaces—he must allow the second archetype to replace the standard ability at the standard class level.
For example, the monk of the healing hand archetype (APG) replaces
wholeness of body (7th level)
diamond body (11th level)
quivering palm (15th level)
perfect self (20th level).
A qinggong monk who also wants to take the monk of the healing hand archetype has to let the healing hand archetype replace all four of those abilities at those specific class levels. The qinggong monk is still free to replace any standard monk abilities at the other class levels listed in the qinggong monk archetype (slow fall at 4th, high jump at 5th, and so on), so long as selecting those abilities doesn't interfere with acquiring the healing hand abilities at the correct levels.
Note that if the second archetype replaces a standard monk ability, the character cannot select that replaced ability at a later monk level. For example, the qinggong/healing hand monk can never select wholeness of body, even at a level higher than 7th. In effect, the character has selected wholeness of body at 7th and immediately replaced it with a healing hand ability; as the qinggong archetype only lets you select an ability later if the character "selects a different ki power in place of a standard monk ability" (which didn't occur), that option is not available for the character.
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This is a no brainier in my opinion. This replaces Armor training 2. It doesn't say this replaces advancement to armor training 2. It doesn't say this replaces the armor training 2 you get from leveling as a fighter. It doesn't say your armor training does not advance further from your fighter levels. It says right out, you get another power and you lose armor training 2. Regardless of how you get armor training 2, you lose it it. It gets replaced. End of story. The sash give you armor training 2 early, and you lose it early.
What constitutes armor training 2 is made explicitly clear from the official FAQ.
Guass, Just because I understand and say back to you want you are saying happens doesn't make it any more right. I feel Durngrun understands what you're saying as well, but doesn't care since you are wrong.
A dragoon's armor training isn't locked to lv3. Yes he's lost the lv 7,11, and 15 advancements, but his level for the ability keeps going up. Nothing says you don't continue to add your fighter levels, instead what does happen is that reaching those levels just doesn't give you the advancement of the armor training. What this means is that a lv7 dragoon counts as a level 7 fighter for his armor training, but his armor training doesn't have any bonuses.
So for a dragoon his armor training effectively says
Starting at 3rd level, a fighter learns to be more maneuverable while wearing armor. Whenever he is wearing armor, he reduces the armor check penalty by 1 (to a minimum of 0) and increases the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed by his armor by 1.
That's it. Thus actual levels and effectual levels do not give him an increase in this ability. The only meaning of the line "he wearer treats his fighter level as 4 higher than normal for the purpose of the armor training and bravery class features." is to let you know that you don't increase your bonus feats or your weapon training. It is not wordage that lets you skip normal limitations of your class to get different bonuses.
I'd like to emphatize
"The wearer treats his fighter level as 4 higher than normal for the purpose of the armor training and bravery class features."
That means, if he is Fighter (Dragoon) 3, he countes as Fighter(Dragoon) 7, not as generic Fighter 7. Yes, always for the pourpouse of Armor Tarainig. Now, whats Armor Training feature has a level 7 Fighter(Dragon)?
Guass, Just because I understand and say back to you want you are saying happens doesn't make it any more right. I feel Durngrun understands what you're saying as well, but doesn't care since you are wrong.
A dragoon's armor training isn't locked to lv3. Yes he's lost the lv 7,11, and 15 advancements, but his level for the ability keeps going up. Nothing says you don't continue to add your fighter levels, instead what does happen is that reaching those levels just doesn't give you the advancement of the armor training. What this means is that a lv7 dragoon counts as a level 7 fighter for his armor training, but his armor training doesn't have any bonuses.
So for a dragoon his armor training effectively says
Starting at 3rd level, a fighter learns to be more maneuverable while wearing armor. Whenever he is wearing armor, he reduces the armor check penalty by 1 (to a minimum of 0) and increases the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed by his armor by 1.That's it. Thus actual levels and effectual levels do not give him an increase in this ability. The only meaning of the line "he wearer treats his fighter level as 4 higher than normal for the purpose of the armor training and bravery class features." is to let you know that you don't increase your bonus feats or your weapon training. It is not wordage that lets you skip normal limitations of your class to get different bonuses.
Show me where I EVER said you agreed with me. I specifically stated multiple times that you understood my position and still disagreed with me.
I've never thought of asking questions as being adversarial. I feel as though I've answered questions if not directly then in general. I would say I have at the very least made my position known.
So, you answered Endoralis' questions? Interesting, I only saw you quote his questions (not an answer), post a quote on Sermonic Performance (not an answer), and then post a setup and a question (not an answer). That is not answering his questions. You have done this repeatedly.
You may want to be more specific about your answers, they seem to have gotten lost in your questions.
noretoc, please show the following:
1) Please show where Armor Training 2 is listed in the level progression of Armor Training or anywhere in Armor Training. (It isn't)
2) Please show where the sash mentions Armor Training 2. (It doesn't, it mentions Armor Training.)
Dekalinder, you lose the advancement of Armor Training when you do not get Armor Training 2 at level 7. You do not lose Armor Training. If you find some other method of advancement then you get the next step(s) normally.
Armor Training is the class feature. It has a text block and rules.
"Armor Training 2" is has no text block, no rules, and no text support.
You have to use RAI to draw a line between "Armor Training 2" and Armor Training's level advancement since there is no RAW stating what "Armor Training 2" is.
Thus, "Armor Training 2" is the name for the advancement of the class feature Armor Training at level 7.
The Sash improves Armor Training as per the level advancement in Armor Training, it does not reference "Armor Training 2".
I've never thought of asking questions as being adversarial. I feel as though I've answered questions if not directly then in general. I would say I have at the very least made my position known.So, you answered Endoralis' questions? Interesting, I only saw you quote his questions (not an answer), post a quote on Sermonic Performance (not an answer), and then post a setup and a question (not an answer). That is not answering his questions. You have done this repeatedly.
You may want to be more specific about your answers, they seem to have gotten lost in your questions.
I would refer you to my last post and also I don't feel I'm required to answer every question to participate in a thread.
You don't have to answer every question, but quoting someone's questions (Endoralis') and then asking your own without answering his is rude and baiting. It is why nobody responded to your questions. If you won't have common courtesy to respond to someone's questions when you quote them why should they respond to yours?
You don't have to answer every question, but quoting someone's questions (Endoralis') and then asking your own without answering his is rude and baiting. It is why nobody responded to your questions. If you won't have common courtesy to respond to someone's questions when you quote them why should they respond to yours?
the question was asked; is Channel Energy one ability or multiple abilities. I bolded the section that refer to channel energy abilities (plural)
At some point we should make an actual FAQ request thread for this kind of stuff, which I'm sure will probably be answered by devs as "In the FAQ".
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I agree with Gauss, nothing in the Dragoon actually alters the Armor Training ability, they just aren't given the 2nd stage and above of it. But they still have it, it just doesn't trigger. The ability still has its full potential locked in the mechanic, so the sash would still key off of the base ability, which isn't altered, resulting in the second stage of armor training triggering.
I agree with Gauss, nothing in the Dragoon actually alters the Armor Training ability, they just aren't given the 2nd stage and above of it. But they still have it, it just doesn't trigger. The ability still has its full potential locked in the mechanic, so the sash would still key off of the base ability, which isn't altered, resulting in the second stage of armor training triggering.
So "replaces" is not the same thing as "alters"?
I agree with Gauss, nothing in the Dragoon actually alters the Armor Training ability, they just aren't given the 2nd stage and above of it. But they still have it, it just doesn't trigger. The ability still has its full potential locked in the mechanic, so the sash would still key off of the base ability, which isn't altered, resulting in the second stage of armor training triggering.
So if it doesn't trigger with addition fighter levels why would it trigger with additional "effective" fighter levels?
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I agree with Gauss, nothing in the Dragoon actually alters the Armor Training ability, they just aren't given the 2nd stage and above of it. But they still have it, it just doesn't trigger. The ability still has its full potential locked in the mechanic, so the sash would still key off of the base ability, which isn't altered, resulting in the second stage of armor training triggering.So "replaces" is not the same thing as "alters"?
Well, replace would be a more specific term than alters. But otherwise, sure, they are similar. :D
My point is that the basic ability never actually changes, the Fighter Dragoon doesn't gain it through a natural level up progression, but the base ability is still the same, nothing has changed that, they just didn't get it from leveling up. I see it sort of like potential energy (Armor Training) it's still there it just lost some sort of event/forcing (hitting level 7) to transform it into another type of energy.
So it follows that something that increases their effective levels for the purpose of the ability, which didn't get changed, would still grant to to them.
Does that make sense? Or what am I missing?
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I agree with Gauss, nothing in the Dragoon actually alters the Armor Training ability, they just aren't given the 2nd stage and above of it. But they still have it, it just doesn't trigger. The ability still has its full potential locked in the mechanic, so the sash would still key off of the base ability, which isn't altered, resulting in the second stage of armor training triggering.So if it doesn't trigger with addition fighter levels why would it trigger with additional "effective" fighter levels?
Because the Sash specifically targets Armor Training, which has not been altered.
Because the Sash specifically targets Armor Training, which has not been altered.I agree with Gauss, nothing in the Dragoon actually alters the Armor Training ability, they just aren't given the 2nd stage and above of it. But they still have it, it just doesn't trigger. The ability still has its full potential locked in the mechanic, so the sash would still key off of the base ability, which isn't altered, resulting in the second stage of armor training triggering.So if it doesn't trigger with addition fighter levels why would it trigger with additional "effective" fighter levels?
NO The sash does not target Armor training it targets you and increases your level for your armor training and bravery. Instead of increasing all your class abilities by 4 it's only increasing 2 of your class abilities, the two listed. The sash's levels and normal levels are the same for the ability. Thus if normal levels wouldn't give it to you then the sash doesn't, because a lv 20 Dragoon is a level 20 fighter for his armor training.
Someone, please, show me exactly where the class feature "Armor Training 2" can be found. Cite a page number in the text (not table) where it states "Armor Training 2" with a heading of "Class Features". (Hint, it doesn't exist.)
Armor Training 2 is not a class feature. It is the increase of a class feature. Even this bit requires RAI since there is no RAW on what "Armor Training 2" is.
Replacing an increase means you never got the increase. But that does nothing to alter the class feature.
Since the class feature has not been altered if you can find increases via other means then you can do so.
"The wearer treats his fighter level as 4 higher than normal for the purpose of the armor training..."
("I" assumes speaking from a level 3 Dragoon's pov.)
1) Do I have Armor Training? Yes!!
2) Did I miss the increases to Armor Training? Yes, but that did not alter Armor Training.
3) Has Armor Training been modified in any way? NO!!
4) Can I use a Sash of the War Champion to gain the level 7 abilities of Armor Training? Yes!!
It is pretty simple, you lost the opportunity to increase Armor Training. You did not lose Armor Training.
Lets put this another way:
Assume someone trades out "Bravery +2" through "Bravery +5". (No Archetype does this because Bravery is too weak for it but lets just assume someone made an archetype that does it.)
Does the Sash still work for them? Absolutely. Their +1 becomes a +2.
Any scaling class feature that misses some of its advancements can be increased normally so long as you possess the class feature. Armor Training is one such class feature.
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How does a virtual level increase grant an ability that an actual level increase does not?This was the essence of my position also. If you don't get the ability or improvements when you organically reach level 7, then surely you don't get them when you are treated as level 7.
You've given up those abilities or improvements. They don't exist for you any more.
Anyway, I'll bow out again swiftly and politely :)
Yeah, I am going to simply agree with this statement. You show up for any table I run this is going to be the ruling. The abilities do not exist for you any more since you gave them up.
I hate to say it Gauss, but they're right on this one. The FAQ that Gisher originally found proves it:
A multiclassed character with armor training 1 from fighter (3rd level) and armor training 1 from myrmidarch (8th level) gains the ability to overcome the speed reduction of heavy armor (as it is the equivalent of armor training 2, which grants that ability).
The bolded part is concise proof of RAI regarding the Heavy Armor mobility benefit, it is the second rank that grants the subject, not the Fighter levels themselves as the RAW states. Even if you increase your Fighter Levels, you're increasing it for a feature that you cannot make any better, given your archetype choice. (Of course, this doesn't mean Myrmidarchs can use the Sash to cheat their way of getting Armor Training sooner, since it only enhances Fighter levels, not Magus levels.)
Remember the golden rule of Paizo: Martials can't have nice things. Being able to use the Sash to cheat your benefits is a nice thing to have. Therefore, it must be a lie, and should be allowed anyway, because Fighters need help. eliminated.
Darksol, that FAQ is addressing the combination of two Armor Training 1's into Armor Training 2. It does not address this particular issue.
This issue is:
If you traded out your advancement in Armor Training can you get advancement from another source?
The "no" crowd is citing that the "Class feature: Armor Training 2" has been swapped out.
The "yes" folks are stating that the "Class feature: Armor Training" has not been altered, only the advancement missed.
Admittedly, this is due in part to the fact that there is no RAW definition for "Armor Training #".
Even that FAQ is making an assumption. If "Armor Training" had been broken up into 4 parts then it would be clear, but it wasn't and it isn't.
Darksol, that FAQ is addressing the combination of two Armor Training 1's into Armor Training 2. It does not address this particular issue.
This issue is:
If you traded out your advancement in Armor Training can you get advancement from another source?The "no" crowd is citing that the "Class feature: Armor Training 2" has been swapped out.
The "yes" folks are stating that the "Class feature: Armor Training" has not been altered, only the advancement missed.
Admittedly, this is due in part to the fact that there is no RAW definition for "Armor Training #".
Even that FAQ is making an assumption. If "Armor Training" had been broken up into 4 parts then it would be clear, but it wasn't and it isn't.
The FAQ relates to gaining Armor Training as Ranks, whether from Fighter or Myrmidarch Magus levels, and states that Ranks from different classes stack. The point is that the FAQ gives us the RAI regarding Armor Training.
Fighter armor training 1 (gained at 3rd level) also gives a fighter the ability to move at normal speed in medium armor. Fighter armor training 2 (gained at 7th level) also gives a fighter the ability to move at normal speed in heavy armor.
That is the RAI of the Fighter Armor Training the FAQ presents us. Even if two sets of 1's upgrade to a 2, it doesn't change the factor that a straight Dragoon Fighter doesn't ever get 2, because it was changed out. By this FAQ, a Dragoon 3/Myrmidarch 8 would get Armor Training 2, but a Dragoon 7/Myrmidarch 8 would not get Armor Training 3.
The problem with the Sash not working is that it doesn't take into account archetypes that replace certain ranks of Armor Training, primarily because the item was written before Archetypes were even invented. In other words, the item wasn't written specifically to grant an extra rank of Armor Training, and therefore doesn't supersede the factor that the rank was swapped out. (I wish it were, that'd be a lot better than what it is now, and it'd work the way you say it would).
Just to add something that hasn't been mentioned yet... let's assume the majority is correct... the Sash does not grant a Dragoon Armor Training 2 (in the predominant example used in the thread).
However, "for purposes of armor training", would it be reasonable to grant the Dragoon access to Spinning Lance via the Sash? Spinning Lance *is* his Armor Training 2, and if we're going to exclude the replaced ability, it seems appropriate to include the ability that replaced it. This would mean early access to Piercing Lance and Leaping Lance as well as the character levelled. This also makes the item more flexible/usable by other archetypes perhaps.
And yes, I know the ability name is different, and that probably is counter to FAQs about named class abilities, but it feels like a better solution.