Chess Pwn, I will answer this and then I am done because we are talking in circles.
Because the Dragoon traded out advancement (Armor Training 2+). Thus he does not progress in the ability. There is nothing that backs up your concept of 'advancement without advancement'.
He doesn't "trade out advancement" in Armour Training, he loses the class ability Armour Training 2.
Durngrun Stonebreaker, you are taking that FAQ out of context. The FAQ's context is that Armor Training 2 and the level 7 advancement in the Armor Training ability are the SAME THING.
Again, the item does not advance Armour Training, it allows a character to treat his level as four levels higher.
Durngrun Stonebreaker, you are taking that FAQ out of context. The FAQ's context is that Armor Training 2 and the level 7 advancement in the Armor Training ability are the SAME THING.Again, the item does not advance Armour Training, it allows a character to treat his level as four levels higher.
Durngrun, he is saying that the Dragoon's armor training stops adding fighter levels at lv 3. But since the sash says increase you fighter level for purpose of armor training that it's able to reach the locked lv3 fighter and increase that by 4 levels thus giving him a lv7 fighter in regards to armor training. This is HOW he's using it to advance the armor training.
SASH OF THE WAR CHAMPION
Aura moderate abjuration; CL 9th
Slot chest; Price 4,000 gp; Weight 1 lb.
DESCRIPTIONThis bright red strip of cloth, stitched with images of a cheering crowd throwing garlands toward a chariot, fits across the wearer's shoulders and then diagonally down his chest to reach his opposite hip. The wearer treats his fighter level as 4 higher than normal for the purpose of the armor training and bravery class features.
So if you're a Fighter(Dragoon), do you treat your Fighter level as four higher or your Fighter(Dragoon) levels as four higher? Can you separate your Fighter levels from your Fighter(Dragoon) levels?
So if you're a Fighter(Dragoon), do you treat your Fighter level as four higher or your Fighter(Dragoon) levels as four higher? Can you separate your Fighter levels from your Fighter(Dragoon) levels?SASH OF THE WAR CHAMPION
Aura moderate abjuration; CL 9th
Slot chest; Price 4,000 gp; Weight 1 lb.
DESCRIPTIONThis bright red strip of cloth, stitched with images of a cheering crowd throwing garlands toward a chariot, fits across the wearer's shoulders and then diagonally down his chest to reach his opposite hip. The wearer treats his fighter level as 4 higher than normal for the purpose of the armor training and bravery class features.
The way you and I see this, no you can't, because we feel that the fighter just doesn't have armor training 2,3 and 4. But Gauss is seeing it that Armor training itself is never modified, as it's just 1 ability, so that the "logical" thing is that it just never gets more levels added to it, thus stopping it from reaching the higher powers it would normally give. That it is always counting the fighter as a lv3 fighter for it's abilities. Thus the sash would let it count as a lv7 fighter since it's specifically says it increases it for purposes of armor training.
Dragoon (Archetype)
These gallant lancers serve in the vanguard of many armies or as knights-errant. They are born leaders and masters of the mounted charge.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A dragoon is not proficient with tower shields.Skilled Rider (Ex): At 1st level, a dragoon gains both the Mounted Combat and Skill Focus (Ride) feats as bonus feats. This ability replaces the 1st-level fighter bonus combat feat.
Spear Training (Ex): At 5th level, a dragoon must select weapon training with the spear group. The dragoon's weapon training bonus with spears improves by +1 on attack rolls and +2 on damage rolls for every four levels beyond 5th (to a maximum of +4 on attack rolls and +8 on damage rolls at 17th level). The dragoon does not gain weapon training in any other groups as he increases in level.
Spinning Lance (Ex): At 7th level, a dragoon may alternate attacks with the piercing head of his lance with reach, or with the butt end (treat as a club) against adjacent targets. Unlike a double weapon, the masterwork quality and magical special abilities apply to both ends of the lance, except for those weapon special abilities that apply only to edged weapons. This ability replaces armor training 2.
Banner (Ex): At 9th level, a dragoon may attach a banner to his lance. This is identical to the cavalier class feature. The bonuses provided by the dragoon's banner increase by +1 for every five levels beyond 9th (to a maximum of +3 at 19th level). Cavalier levels stack with his dragoon level for determining the effect of his banner, and he can take the better banner progression. This ability replaces weapon training 2, 3, and 4.
Piercing Lance (Ex): At 11th level, as a standard action or as part of a charge, a dragoon attacking a mounted opponent can make two attacks, one against the mount and the other against the rider, using his highest base attack bonus. Furthermore, if the mount is hit and its rider attempts to negate the hit with the Mounted Combat feat, the dragoon's attack roll is considered 4 higher when calculating the DC of the Ride check to negate the hit. This ability replaces armor training 3.
Leaping Lance (Ex): At 15th level, a dragoon and his mount suffer no armor check penalty on Acrobatics checks while mounted. When charging, a dragoon may jump from his mount toward his target. If he jumps 10 feet, his charge modifiers on attack rolls and to AC are doubled and he is still considered mounted for lance damage, mounted combat feats, and so on. This ability replaces armor training 4.Weapon Mastery: The dragoon must select the lance for this ability.
Where does it say his Armour Training "stops advancing?"
I gather he's equating "armor training 2" as allowing the fighter to gain the lv7 advancement of armor training, thus it's always only counting you as a lv3 in regards to which bonuses it gives you.
I'm not sure I can go much further in representing him as to WHY he feels that way, since I don't.
Alright, I'm going to make this easy. There are archetypes that change out say, Channel Energy dice and whatnot. Are you saying then that Channel Energy is a separate ability every other level? How about Sneak Attack?
Thats kinda what Gauss was getting at. it's fairly simple.
Sermonic Performance: An evangelist gains the ability to deliver a select number of supernatural and spell-like performances through the force and power of her divinely inspired preaching and exhortation. This ability is similar in all respects to bardic performance as used by a bard of the same level (including interactions with feats, spells, and prestige classes), using Perform (oratory) as the evangelist's performance skill. However, an evangelist gains only the following types of bardic performance: countersong, fascinate, and inspire courage at 1st level; inspire greatness at 9th level; and inspire heroics at 15th level. Sermonic performance replaces the 1st-, 9th-, and 15th-level channel energy abilities. This caps the cleric's channel energy damage at 7d6 points.
I'm a 15th level Evangelist, I put on a magic item that treats my class level as five levels higher for Channel Energy. What is my Channel Energy ability?
I cannot find a rogue archetype that trades out sneak attack. Can you point me to one?
I just had a realization, please cite any class ability text (not table) that uses the terms "Armor Training 2" or "Armor Training 3" or Armor Training 4". You won't find one.
The Armor Training 1, 2, 3, 4 labels are entirely based on the table and have NO corresponding ability in the text.
We all assume (correctly) that the table is referencing the Armor Training (no number) ability and the text in the Armor Training ability that states that it increases at levels 7, 11, and 15.
But that is still a (reasonable) assumption.
The text states the ability is acquired at level 3 and that each increase occurs at levels 7, 11, and 15.
The table's names are just a nice name shorthand for each level increase that is easy to reference.
Can you imagine the extra words if they have to reference it as 'You lose the level 7 increase of Armor Training'?
Summary: the names are not separate class abilities, they are the names of each level increase in the single class ability called "Armor Training".
This is equivalent to the dice increases for Channel Energy (the table is shorthand for what is in the text).
As shorthand for the level increases in an ability the Sash still works because the sash raises the effective level of that ability.
Of course, if you want to stick with "strict RAW" then the Armor Training 1-4 table names are abilities without a corresponding ability in the text. But who would want to do that?
It does NOT "raise the effective level of that ability." It treats your level as four levels higher. I'm a 3rd level Fighter(Dragoon), add four levels and I'm a 7th level Fighter(Dragoon). What is the normal benefit I would gain from Armour Training at that level?
Exactly ^^ For the purposes of Armour Training and Bravery, you are now a 7th level fighter (dragoon). You can no more gain the benefits of AT2 than you can throw a fireball. It's really that simple. AT2 and its associated benefits are no longer a class feature you have access to.
How is this arguable?
(Rhetorical question, I've read the thread.)
Durngrun Stonebreaker,
Either "Armor Training 1-4" is an ability that doesn't exist, or it is referencing the existing text. You cannot have it both ways.
If it references the existing text then you must use those rules.
Ie: You have Armor Training, you do not get the corresponding level increase when you get "Armor Training 2" because you never got that.
That does not prevent you from getting the level increase another way.
As a level 7 Dragoon you never acquired the Armor Training 7th level increase. There is nothing stopping you from increasing your Armor Training some other means.
I just had a realization, please cite any class ability text (not table) that uses the terms "Armor Training 2" or "Armor Training 3" or Armor Training 4". You won't find one.
The Armor Training 1, 2, 3, 4 labels are entirely based on the table and have NO corresponding ability in the text.
We all assume (correctly) that the table is referencing the Armor Training (no number) ability and the text in the Armor Training ability that states that it increases at levels 7, 11, and 15.
But that is still a (reasonable) assumption.The text states the ability is acquired at level 3 and that each increase occurs at levels 7, 11, and 15.
The table's names are just a nice name shorthand for each level increase that is easy to reference.
Can you imagine the extra words if they have to reference it as 'You lose the level 7 increase of Armor Training'?Summary: the names are not separate class abilities, they are the names of each level increase in the single class ability called "Armor Training".
This is equivalent to the dice increases for Channel Energy (the table is shorthand for what is in the text).As shorthand for the level increases in an ability the Sash still works because the sash raises the effective level of that ability.
Of course, if you want to stick with "strict RAW" then the Armor Training 1-4 table names are abilities without a corresponding ability in the text. But who would want to do that?
Question 1) At level 7, what benefits does the dragoon get from Armour Training?
Answer) None.
The sash puts the dragoon's level at +4 for the purposes of Armour Training.
Question 2) At effective level 7, what benefits does the dragoon get from Armour Training?
Answer) See Question 1.
The sash doesn't raise the effective level of the ability. It raises the effective level of the character in regards to that ability, which means they use that ability as if they were level 7. At level 7, a dragoon gains no benefit from Armour Training.
littlehewy,
Your statement is incorrect. At level 7 the Dragoon has Armor Training (acquired at level 3).
He did not gain any increase to his Armor Training at level 7.
Again, nothing stops him from acquiring it another method.
Really guys, I think you are being very obtuse about this. It is a single ability with multiple increases, just like many other abilities. Use some common sense here.
If it was not a single ability then "Armor Training 1-4" would have NO meaning whatsoever. They are not referenced ANYWHERE in the rules for Armor Training.
If it is not a single ability then trading away "Armor Training 2" is completely and utterly meaningless.
Durngrun Stonebreaker,
Either "Armor Training 1-4" is an ability that doesn't exist, or it is referencing the existing text. You cannot have it both ways.
If it references the existing text then you must use those rules.
Ie: You have Armor Training, you do not get the corresponding level increase when you get "Armor Training 2" because you never got that.That does not prevent you from getting the level increase another way.
As a level 7 Dragoon you never acquired the Armor Training 7th level increase. There is nothing stopping you from increasing your Armor Training some other means.
I've bolded the part you're misapprehending. You don't increase your Armour Training. You increase your effective level. The sash doesn't let you acquire a class feature, or aspects of a class feature, that you don't have. All it does is raise your effective level.
It's right there in the text.
Durngrun Stonebreaker,
Either "Armor Training 1-4" is an ability that doesn't exist, or it is referencing the existing text. You cannot have it both ways.
If it references the existing text then you must use those rules.
Ie: You have Armor Training, you do not get the corresponding level increase when you get "Armor Training 2" because you never got that.That does not prevent you from getting the level increase another way.
As a level 7 Dragoon you never acquired the Armor Training 7th level increase. There is nothing stopping you from increasing your Armor Training some other means.
Please show me where the sash "advances" Armour Training. All I see is treat your level as four levels higher.
Durngrun Stonebreaker, I have already addressed that..it says that RIGHT IN THE ARMOR TRAINING ABILITY. Is that clear enough for you? Read it again. Read the part where it says what you get at level 7.
Your level is 3. It treats your level as 4 levels higher, 7. What does "Armor Training" say happens? Oh teacher, I know!!
You get everything it says you get at level 7.
littlehewy, you are absolutely correct, if Dragoons did not have Armor Training the sash would do nothing for them. Thankfully, they have Armor Training at level 3. The sash can then raise them to level 7. After all, it's right there in the text. Perhaps you should read "Armor Training". I quoted it up-thread.
If you believe it cannot do that, show me where it states that you cannot apply the Sash to the ability that you get as part of your class.
Please show me where the sash "advances" Armour Training. All I see is treat your level as four levels higher.Durngrun Stonebreaker,
Either "Armor Training 1-4" is an ability that doesn't exist, or it is referencing the existing text. You cannot have it both ways.
If it references the existing text then you must use those rules.
Ie: You have Armor Training, you do not get the corresponding level increase when you get "Armor Training 2" because you never got that.That does not prevent you from getting the level increase another way.
As a level 7 Dragoon you never acquired the Armor Training 7th level increase. There is nothing stopping you from increasing your Armor Training some other means.
Exactly. And does a 7th level dragoon get those AT increases?
See Question 1.
Durngrun Stonebreaker, I have already addressed that..it says that RIGHT IN THE ARMOR TRAINING ABILITY. Is that clear enough for you? Read it again. Read the part where it says what you get at level 7.
Your level is 3. It treats your level as 4 levels higher, 7. What does "Armor Training" say happens? Oh teacher, I know!!
You get everything it says you get at level 7.littlehewy, you are absolutely correct, if Dragoons did not have Armor Training the sash would do nothing for them. Thankfully, they have Armor Training at level 3. The sash can then raise them to level 7. After all, it's right there in the text. Perhaps you should read "Armor Training". I quoted it up-thread.
If you believe it cannot do that, show me where it states that you cannot apply the Sash to the ability that you get as part of your class.
Then a 7th level Dragoon gets the same ability. As you said, you can't have it both ways.
littlehewy, please show me in the Armor Training ability anywhere that states 'Armor Training 2'.
Strict RAW: Armor Training 2 is a meaningless statement, it has no corresponding ability. It is an ability without text.
RAI: Armor Training 2 is the name used to reference the level up referenced in Armor Training. It is a name for the level up, it is not the rule. The rule is Armor Training.
Just because that level up fails to occur at level 7 does not mean the rule (Armor Training) fails in it's totality. You can still increase the level through other means.
Summary: "Armor Training 2" is not a separate ability. It is a name for a single level up in a single ability.
littlehewy, please show me in the Armor Training ability anywhere that states 'Armor Training 2'.
Strict RAW: Armor Training 2 is a meaningless statement, it has no corresponding ability. It is an ability without text.
RAI: Armor Training 2 is the name used to reference the level up referenced in Armor Training. It is a name for the level up, it is not the rule. The rule is Armor Training.
Just because that level up fails to occur at level 7 does not mean the rule (Armor Training) fails in it's totality. You can still increase the level through other means.
Summary: "Armor Training 2" is not a separate ability. It is a name for a single level up in a single ability.
So in your game, does a 7th level dragoon get the 7th level benefits of Armour Training? If not, neither does your effectively level 7 dragoon with the sash. The term Armour Training 2 is irrelevant.
Anyhow, we are back to arguing in circles. While he didn't agree at least Chess Pwn put effort into understanding my position. Something that Durngrun has completely ignored.
My stance: It is a single ability with increases at specific levels. The Dragoon does not get those increases normally but can find other ways to do so (other classes that stack, the Sash, whatever). This is similar to other abilities with increases that get swapped out.
You guys apparent stance: It is 4 separate abilities (something the text does not support in any way especially since you have to use RAI rather than RAW to get there).
Edit: littlehewy, only because you are being as obtuse as Durngrun, at least Chess Pwn tried to understand. Thank you Chess Pwn.
Anyhow, we are back to arguing in circles. While he didn't agree at least Chess Pwn put effort into understanding my position. Something that Durngrun has completely ignored.
My stance: It is a single ability with increases at specific levels. The Dragoon does not get those increases normally but can find other ways to do so (other classes that stack, the Sash, whatever). This is similar to other abilities with increases that get swapped out.
You guys apparent stance: It is 4 separate abilities (something the text does not support in any way especially since you have to use RAI rather than RAW to get there).
No, my stance is that the sash treats your level as four levels higher. A 3rd level Fighter(Dragoon) treated four levels higher should have the abilities of a 7th level Fighter(Dragoon). A 7th level Fighter(Dragoon) does not get an increase in his Armour Training ability.
Edit: Your stance seems to be that it is four different abilities for the class but only one ability when it comes to the magic item.
Anyhow, we are back to arguing in circles. While he didn't agree at least Chess Pwn put effort into understanding my position. Something that Durngrun has completely ignored.
My stance: It is a single ability with increases at specific levels. The Dragoon does not get those increases normally but can find other ways to do so (other classes that stack, the Sash, whatever). This is similar to other abilities with increases that get swapped out.
You guys apparent stance: It is 4 separate abilities (something the text does not support in any way especially since you have to use RAI rather than RAW to get there).
Edit: littlehewy, only because you are being as obtuse as Durngrun, at least Chess Pwn tried to understand. Thank you Chess Pwn.
You obviously don't understand my position. I don't care if it's one ability or four.
If you could please answer the question: do you grant a dragoon any benefits in Armour Training at level 7?
I have answered the question, he does not get an increase to Armor Training at levels 7, 11, or 15 because he traded out those increases.
He has to get them some other means if he will get them. He can do this because he still has Armor Training even if he never got the increases. This is similar to how Channel Energy can swap out specific increases in damage dice.
I have answered the question, he does not get an increase to Armor Training at levels 7, 11, or 15 because he traded out those increases.
He has to get them some other means if he will get them. He can do this because he still has Armor Training even if he never got the increases. This is similar to how Channel Energy can swap out specific increases in damage dice.
I feel like you haven't even looked at the magic item in question. It does not advance the Armour Training ability. It treats your level as four levels higher.
I have answered the question, he does not get an increase to Armor Training at levels 7, 11, or 15 because he traded out those increases.
He has to get them some other means if he will get them. He can do this because he still has Armor Training even if he never got the increases. This is similar to how Channel Energy can swap out specific increases in damage dice.
Yes, but the item just makes him level 7 fighter (dragoon). Where does it say he can acquire the increases? A level 7 fighter (dragoon) can't get them, and that's all the item grants him - an increase in level.
I feel like you haven't even looked at the magic item in question. It does not advance the Armour Training ability. It treats your level as four levels higher.I have answered the question, he does not get an increase to Armor Training at levels 7, 11, or 15 because he traded out those increases.
He has to get them some other means if he will get them. He can do this because he still has Armor Training even if he never got the increases. This is similar to how Channel Energy can swap out specific increases in damage dice.
And this is why I know you do not understand my position. Chess Pwn quite clearly explained it to you. Since you failed to understand even his explanation I don't think there is anything else to be said. I have explained it to you many times, others have explained it to you. Either there is a fundamental element you are missing or you are intentionally being obtuse, I really don't know which one it is.
littlehewy, that is your stance.
Mine is different. Mine is that when the dragoon trades out Armor Training 2-4 he is not losing Armor Training. He is losing the level increases. Once again, he has NOT LOST ARMOR TRAINING.
If he finds some other way to get those level increases he gains those abilities.
Anyhow, until someone else comes in and says something interesting there is really no point debating this further with you two. You clearly do not understand my point. (Although I now understand yours, you believe that the levels continue to progress but he gets "nothing". Something that is not supported in the rules.)
If either of you can reasonably echo my position back to me I may continue discussing this.
I believe I understand your position. I believe you are wrong. I have been trying to explain why I believe you are wrong. You are saying the sash increases your Armour Training by four levels. I feel the item gives you four "virtual levels," for lack of a better term. Take a 3rd level Fighter(Dragoon), add four real or virtual levels, what is his Armour Training ability?
I feel like you haven't even looked at the magic item in question. It does not advance the Armour Training ability. It treats your level as four levels higher.I have answered the question, he does not get an increase to Armor Training at levels 7, 11, or 15 because he traded out those increases.
He has to get them some other means if he will get them. He can do this because he still has Armor Training even if he never got the increases. This is similar to how Channel Energy can swap out specific increases in damage dice.And this is why I know you do not understand my position. Chess Pwn quite clearly explained it to you. Since you failed to understand even his explanation I don't think there is anything else to be said. I have explained it to you many times, others have explained it to you. Either there is a fundamental element you are missing or you are intentionally being obtuse, I really don't know which one it is.
littlehewy, that is your stance.
Mine is different. Mine is that when the dragoon trades out Armor Training 2-4 he is not losing Armor Training. He is losing the level increases. Once again, he has NOT LOST ARMOR TRAINING.
If he finds some other way to get those level increases he gains those abilities.Anyhow, until someone else comes in and says something interesting there is really no point debating this further with you two. You clearly do not understand my point. (Although I now understand yours, you believe that the levels continue to progress but he gets "nothing". Something that is not supported in the rules.)
If either of you can reasonably echo my position back to me I may continue discussing this.
You're quite right, there probably isn't any point continuing.
As an aside, I apologise if I've come across as being dismissive or ignoring your stance. I can see how my posts could come across that way - I've been posting on my phone in between hands of cards, abd have been rushed rather than deliberately annoying. Sorry if I've frustrated you, that wasn't my intention...
And that is why you don't understand my position. You keep focusing on the Sash rather the difference between our positions regarding Armor Training. That is the difference, not the sash. The sash is the item, the debate is the Armor Training.
Your position: No amount of levels will ever give a Dragoon Armor Training 2 because he traded it out.
(Note: this position fundamentally treats Armor Training 2 as it's own special ability.)
My position: The Dragoon traded out the advancement in Armor Training that is called "Armor Training 2". That does not preclude him from acquiring said advancement somewhere else.
(Note: this position fundamentally treats Armor Training 2 as just a name for the level 7 increase in the ability Armor Training.)
Honestly I feel Gauss is the one being rude and dismissive.
littlehewy, thank you for your apology. I probably got 'less calm' than I should and for that I apologize. Shouldn't post between World of Tanks matches (adrenalin up). :D
Durngrun, you have been very frustrating. Even after other people explained it to you you STILL don't understand the debate. You wouldn't respond in a reasonable manner to many of my posts, instead focusing on whatever point you wanted to make. But, I apologize if I came off negatively.
And that is why you don't understand my position. You keep focusing on the Sash rather the difference between our positions regarding Armor Training. That is the difference, not the sash. The sash is the item, the debate is the Armor Training.
Your position: No amount of levels will ever give a Dragoon Armor Training 2 because he traded it out.
(Note: this position fundamentally treats Armor Training 2 as it's own special ability.)My position: The Dragoon traded out the advancement in Armor Training that is called "Armor Training 2". That does not preclude him from acquiring said advancement somewhere else.
(Note: this position fundamentally treats Armor Training 2 as just a name for the level 7 increase in the ability Armor Training.)
If he traded out the advancement why would an item that does not grant the advancement give it back? I don't understand how we can have a discussion about an item without talking about the item. Without the item he clearly does not get the advancement. You say, with the item he does. How is that not related to the item?
Durngrun, please read our positions again. When you can repeat back what my position means (especially the part in the parenthesis) we can continue.
Durngrun, please read our positions again. When you can repeat back what my position means (especially the part in the parenthesis) we can continue.
If you don't wish to continue the discussion, then don't. I don't feel I have to prove myself worthy enough for you to merit your continued presence in this discussion.
That isn't what I meant and you know it. This is not about my wish to continue or 'your worth'.
People explained what my position is several times. I explained it many more. And yet, you still don't understand. I don't know what to say to make you understand so all I can suggest is that you re-read it.
Repeating back our understanding is a standard practice for debates when two sides do not understand each other so that we can correct misunderstandings and finally understand each other. (It doesn't mean they have to agree, just understand the other person's position.)
Notice how I have been doing that and correcting my understanding? I am asking you to help by explaining what you understand.
The point is, the difference in our positions has nothing to do with the Sash and everything to do with our differences in how we understand the increases to Armor Training to work.
I'm talking about what benefits a Fighter(Dragoon) gets from wearing a Sash of the War Champion. I do not know how to have that discussion without talking about the item. If you are not referring to the Sash and what benefits it provides then I'm not sure what you are trying to add to the discussion.
Yes, that is the general topic. But the sticking point, the point we disagree on, is how it applies to the ability. That is the section of focus. Not the sash. The item could be ANY item that adds levels.
How a magic item that raises Armor Training by 4 levels is not in question.
Whether raising Armor Training by 4 levels provides a benefit to a Dragoon IS in question.
In other words, the magic item is irrelevant. I thought you understood that but it appears you don't.
Yes, that is the general topic. But the sticking point, the point we disagree on, is how it applies to the ability. That is the section of focus. Not the sash. The item could be ANY item that adds levels.
How a magic item that raises Armor Training by 4 levels is not in question.
Whether raising Armor Training by 4 levels provides a benefit to a Dragoon IS in question.
In other words, the magic item is irrelevant. I thought you understood that but it appears you don't.
Again just arrogance. It doesn't make you right. I'm talking about the item. The item does not "raise Armour Training by 4 levels." The item treats your level as four levels higher. If you do not understand that I am talking about the item, and what effects the item has, I do not know how else to explain myself.
This seems pretty cut and dried, despite the one and a half pages of moderately-civil discourse.
Armor Training is a four-part class feature, just as Weapon Training is. Fighter (dragoon) in particular gives up Armor Training 2-4 for other class features. Unless they were to pick up levels in, say, Magus (myrmidarch), Armor Training 2-4 does not exist for them. Sash of the War Champion would have zero effect on them, because they do not gain Armor Training levels higher than 1. It does not suddenly give them back the ability to advance the Armor Training that they gave up for their new archetype features.
(As a side note, anyone noticed the OP has only posted once in this thread?)
Durngrun,
It is not arrogance, it is your lack of understanding. We both agree that the item treats your level as four levels higher. You are the only one focusing on that agreement as if it were a disagreement.
It is the result of this "four levels higher" that we do not agree on. That is what I am trying to discuss. The cause of our disagreement has nothing, absolutely nothing, to do with the magic item. It is completely contained in the ability Armor Training and our different understandings on how it works.
Chess Pwn understood the core of the argument and tried to explain it to you even though he disagreed with my stance.
Ashram, like most threads, they tend to take on a life of their own regardless of the OP's participation. :)
So, would you say Channel Energy is a 10 part class feature?
It is condesending (as you continue to be) which comes off as arrogant. The discussion is about the item. I stated how I felt the item worked. You said I was wrong. I asked you how you thought the item worked. You are now responding with "I'm not talking about the item." If I failed to understand your argument it is because you decided not to talk about the item at hand while not mentioning you were not talking about the item at hand. When you decide you wish to talk about the item at hand, I will be happy to continue that conversation.
Alright, I'm going to make this easy. There are archetypes that change out say, Channel Energy dice and whatnot. Are you saying then that Channel Energy is a separate ability every other level? How about Sneak Attack?
Thats kinda what Gauss was getting at. it's fairly simple.
I'm a 15th level Evangelist, I put on a magic item that treats my class level as five levels higher for Channel Energy. What is my Channel Energy ability?
Sermonic Performance: An evangelist gains the ability to deliver a select number of supernatural and spell-like performances through the force and power of her divinely inspired preaching and exhortation. This ability is similar in all respects to bardic performance as used by a bard of the same level (including interactions with feats, spells, and prestige classes), using Perform (oratory) as the evangelist's performance skill. However, an evangelist gains only the following types of bardic performance: countersong, fascinate, and inspire courage at 1st level; inspire greatness at 9th level; and inspire heroics at 15th level. Sermonic performance replaces the 1st-, 9th-, and 15th-level channel energy abilities. This caps the cleric's channel energy damage at 7d6 points.
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Durngrun, everyone else understands what the focus of the debate is about except you. So, I guess I will continue to discuss it with them. I am sorry you don't see it.
Oddly enough, most people seem to agree with me. I'm gonna say you don't understand what the focus of this debate is about. Perhaps if you went back and reread you might be able to understand.
Durngrun, *sighs*, this is supposed to be a friendly discussion. That is why I deleted the post moments after I made it Apparently not quick enough. I didn't want this devolving further.
They do agree with the position that it does not benefit the Dragoon. That is a far cry from WHY they agree. Even LazarX's post has a different focus than yours. It is not focused on the Sash, it is focused on the armor training progression.
The Armor Training progression is the debate.
Did you not even see that I agree with you on the effects of the Sash (raising the level by 4 levels)?
But that does not mean we agree with the RESULT. Now, can we discuss the result or do you want to keep with your assertion that this is all about the magic item?