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Okay, so this is an errant tangent that spawned out of an advice post, figured it was better posted here.
the thread:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2s3g4?Bullet-Proof-Vest-for-modern-campaigns#16
I guess the place to start with is, how obsolete do you want to make more traditional weapons when compared to modern firearms?
While the damage is about the same as older firearms, magazine size, rate of fire, and enhanced range all serve as dramatic improvements to the already impressive firearm.
As most modern firearms are incredibly easy to fire I would make most of them simple weapons. Giving everyone access to them helps out to balance out the power of modern firearms.
The big thing that needs to happen is archetypes need to be made to take advantage of modern firearms and their tactics.
That should cover many of the major starting points of discussion.
True, all.
I've already started hashing out some base classes/archetypes on a notepad - won't have the time to type it all out just yet, but to give you an idea, it's more combat focused. Some are direct translations, like fighters but with high reflex and fort saves, and slightly less feats. Another's like rogues, generally the same but with better range on sneak attacks (when using rangefinders, nightsights or scopes, for example).
Anyway, A point of concern I have, is do you think the reflex saves for full auto are too high? I mean, it's basically attack bonus + gun DC. That's an atuo-hit fore the most part, which isn't what I originally imagined. Attack scores vs. saves are going to get silly on the higher end.
I was thinking of altering that idea somehow, or just ditching the whole +DC thing, and handle full auto as making a single attack roll against an area, the way burst fire works: then applying it to all applicable targets' ACs. Hitting by increments of 5 means additional bullets etc.
yay? nay?
Anyway, can't wait for my eyes to roll out once I get into actually categorizing explosives. A Modern Warfare with Magic campaign is going to be a lot of work, but I've got a demand for it with my current crew.
Pathfinder has rules for semi-auto and automatic weapons in its Technology Guide. That'd be my first place to start. If you don't think these rules cover what you envision, then I'd suggest the following.
For Automatic fire:
Attack action, fires 5 to 10 rounds (1d6+4), line attack, resolved with an attack roll against touch AC, adds +4 to your attack roll, reduces damage dealt by 3, for every 2 by which your hit exceeds deal 1 point of additional damage (can offset reduction, max +10). If you miss by 5 or less, target takes half weapon damage (roll damage normally and then reduce by half), if a target has cover or the evasion feature, they do not take this half damage.
For Burst fire:
Attack action, fires 2 to 4 rounds (1d3+1), resolved with an attack roll against touch AC, adds +2 to your attack roll, reduces damage dealt by 1 point, for every 2 by which your hit exceeds deal 1 point of additional damage (can offset reduction, max +5).
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In terms of bulletproof vests/armor, I'd just claim that they always force a firearm attack roll to resolve against regular AC instead of Touch AC.
My house rule for armor with firearms is that Masterwork armor provides half its AC against firearms. The logic being that the term bulletproof actually comes from smiths shooting a breastplate to prove that it would stop a bullet.
Reverse the situation with modern armors and we find thE armors are now designed specifically to stop bullets, but not so great against other weapons. So I recommend that bulletproof armor provide for AC against firearms, and half of its AC against other weapons.
Location specific damage and called shots are very much the kind of thing that comes down to how you run it at your table. I wouldn't penalize a bulletproof vest for limited coverage any more than a breastplate. As for the effectiveness of modern armors against melee weapons, I'm far from a modern armor expert, but the body armor I've used I would not want to try and cut through it, that stuff is really tough. Ballistic plates also do a really good job of absorbing and distributing an impact.
Are you familiar with the Anachronistic Adventures by Rogue Genius Games? The are a set of modern slanted classes that fill out much of the traditional archetypes of character (besides magical characters) and the enforcer has some pretty good rules for modern firearms that doesnt invalidate non-firearm combat styles. In addition they have a bullet point with modern armors.
Just to give an idea, the firarm rules basically classive each category of fire armo (revolver, automatic pistol, rifle, carbines and shotguns into light, heavy and massive categories. Thus keeping things generic enough to not need to define the difference between a Glock and a Barretta 9mil. The heavy and massive weapons deal more damage, but most also have a +x value. So like the base damage ofa heavy revolver is 1d8+2. This damage is basically an addition to the weapon die, but also is a strength rating, you take a penalty to attack if you dont have strength enough to deal with the weapon's 'kick'.
The also have a new combat maneuver for automatic weapons, called burst: If you beat the cmd of a target you hit, for every 5 you beat it by, you get an additional hit on the target. It doesnt attack touch ac because in a world of balistic armors that isnt necessary and you dont want to throw the math of the game on its head like ultimate combat firearms did.
For armor, they have given specific armors, that have a normal AC rating, and then a rating specifically against firearms. So for instance a balistic vest gives a +3 armor bonus, but gives +6 vs firearms., where as reinforced balistic armor (hard plate armor) the difference is less (+6 for everything else and +8 vs firearms). This is because different armors will be more or less effective against different weapons. Remember that not all modern armor is like the body armor regular patrol cops wear, some of it is more then effective against blades and blunt weapons (look at what swat cops wear for instance).
I figure modern armors are for the most part effective against melee as well, barring of course "realism" - namely that a vest covers only the chest. But then, so does a breastplate, so I'm probably not gonna fudge with making the armors have variable AC (there's more than enough adding/subtracting going on in these homerules without adding another, and truth be told, *most* modern armors are quite resilient to piercing, slashing and bludgeoning - they just don't get a lot of use outside of active combat zones, and wealthy armies).
That aside, I think I like where Kolokotroni's going with using CMB for bursts/auto fire. It's a little different firing single shots, from hosing down an area, or compensating for recoil - though cmb would still get affected by weapon focus and the like (though str might fit in when firing a machine gun over prolonged periods, I'd think dex would still be more important for aim, so maybe all firearms will use the "agile maneuvers" for burst/auto).
SO, I'm gonna ditch the whole reflex vs full auto rules, require Str prerequisites for different firearm types (not really very high, but higher for auto fire and the like: so for example, M16- STR 10/+2 (12 being for burst, 14 for full auto). I figure, STR shouldn't just automatically become an automatic stat dump (no pun intended) in a modern setting, just because less people use melee attacks and the like.
I'm also gonna check out that book for the modernish class types.
Thank you again Kolokotroni.
Also, just so you future posters fully understand why I started this long-winded thread, the idea was to create a sort of Jim Butcher-esque modern/magic setting: So while there will be all the crazy guns, there's also going to be wizards, clerics, and yes, even meleers (imagine a modern world that suddenly becomes infused with elves and dwarves and religions of old - like shadowrun, just less matrix-ey). So it'll have a mix of modern soldiers, detectives, ancient-and-soon-to-be-furious-eco-terrorist druids, and mages who get hired up as quickly as possible by Corporate R&D's, to research their new line of commercial scrolls. Military research produces new spells like "ballistic barrier" and "protection from explosives."
But that's where it's all gonna lead: On day one of the new setting, it's going to be two worlds colliding, and neither prepared for the other. I've gotta figure out the basics of A) how to simulate modern firearms/combat and how to slowly include/balance magic and the like, and B) what base classes should round out/ simulate modern versions of the existing classes. Fighters are like soldiers, right? But every basic military pounds certain things into their soldiers - like "grenade!" (evasion?)
So .... anyway, thanks for input all, keep it coming. I'll post some generalized ideas for base classes (first the modern, non-magic ones, then the ones that the world will evolve into, like eldritch snipers, war-wizards and arcane hackers and the like).
The whole CMB vs. CMD way to resolve fully automatic fire really makes no sense, as armor still plays a factor into stopping a bullet. Also, what does your Strength modifier have to do with dodging bullets (CMD = 10 + STR mod + Dex mod)? Lastly, if you are going to be using Dexterity to modify the CMB check, then you might as well just be making a normal ranged weapon attack; there's really no need for all the extra rules and conversions.
Again, Pathfinder already has rules for automatic fire attacks that are resolved with a ranged attack roll, nothing to do with odd combat maneuver mechanics. Don't like Pathfinder's? Then there are simpler alternatives (one of which I offered); there's really no need to reinvent the wheel on this.
And armor is really just a moot point as well. If your world has both firearms and "archaic" weaponry in tandem, wouldn't it make sense that armor is designed to stop both equally? If not, then AC vs. Touch AC is still completely viable, and simple. Things like deflection, insight, and circumstance bonuses to AC also apply to touch AC, so there really isn't a need to design new spells either. The Resist Energy spell can already reduce damage from explosives if the damage is elemental. Adding DR to armor is also a possibility, where ballistic armor adds DR against firearm attacks, and not other weapons.
All-in-all, I'm just trying to save you time, effort, and headache here. I've been developing a modern, d20 system, setting/game for years, considering several of the d20 systems currently out there for said game. So all I'm trying to say, is that I've been there, thinking through the exact same things you are, so my advice/feedback doesn't come from speculation or arrogance or entitlement, or anything like that, only from experience/commonality in our situations.
There's a Mass Effect D20 fan project(that's amazingly well done) that can solve some of your issues I think.
Mass Effect D20
Basically, they change the way armor works. Your AC, or chance to actually be hit, is based on size/dex/cover/movement. Armor doesn't help this. Instead armor gives DR, so even if you do get hit, it doesn't hurt nearly as bad as getting hit unprotected.
I'm actually working on a kitbash system of this and regular dnd/pathfinder, where armor provides DR and provides defense against melee weapons in the form of AC and DR, but only provides DR against ranged. On the same note, you do not gain cover/movement bonus to your AC vs Melee.
Armor as DR is how I prefer armor be handled in games, but is a totally unrealistic option for Pathfinder as it would pretty much require the whole game be rewritten and rebalanced around the idea of Armor as DR.
For the purposes of this discussion, Armor providing AC, even against bullets works just fine.
As far as Semi-Automatic and automatic weapons, I'll have to find the time to look into the existing options, and consider them and maybe some alternatives, based on Realism, game balance, and being dramatically appropriate. The dramatically appropriate part is really big as Pathfinder does not favor realism, an appropriate tone needs to be set by the game mechanics.
I had different firing types work in a simple easy way
Semi-auto weapons were a +1 enhancement(that didn't require an enhancement bonus), they made it so if you rolled 10 higher than AC you rolled damage twice.(could not happen more than once a round)
Full auto was if you were 5 higher, but otherwise was the same but cost a +2.
this way you keep it simple with still 1 attack roll
also I made AP and HEAP rounds attack touch always, but otherwise armor could get a +1 enhancement to add half Armor to AC against ranged attacks and a +2 enhancement for all armor. They were called Kevlar and Ceramic/Ablative respectively.
different ammo types as well, and more fire rates than listed, such as burst or star and bolt-action/breach. but I think this is all you need to keep it simple and fun.
oh, and I made pistols and such light weapons, sub-machine guns and rifles one-handed, and LMGs and infantry support weapons two-handed. when you wield light weapons in two-hands they gain +4 to-hit, and one-handed gained +2.
Armor as DR is how I prefer armor be handled in games, but is a totally unrealistic option for Pathfinder as it would pretty much require the whole game be rewritten and rebalanced around the idea of Armor as DR.
For the purposes of this discussion, Armor providing AC, even against bullets works just fine.
As far as Semi-Automatic and automatic weapons, I'll have to find the time to look into the existing options, and consider them and maybe some alternatives, based on Realism, game balance, and being dramatically appropriate. The dramatically appropriate part is really big as Pathfinder does not favor realism, an appropriate tone needs to be set by the game mechanics.
The whole CMB vs. CMD way to resolve fully automatic fire really makes no sense, as armor still plays a factor into stopping a bullet. Also, what does your Strength modifier have to do with dodging bullets (CMD = 10 + STR mod + Dex mod)? Lastly, if you are going to be using Dexterity to modify the CMB check, then you might as well just be making a normal ranged weapon attack; there's really no need for all the extra rules and conversions.
Again, Pathfinder already has rules for automatic fire attacks that are resolved with a ranged attack roll, nothing to do with odd combat maneuver mechanics. Don't like Pathfinder's? Then there are simpler alternatives (one of which I offered); there's really no need to reinvent the wheel on this.
And armor is really just a moot point as well. If your world has both firearms and "archaic" weaponry in tandem, wouldn't it make sense that armor is designed to stop both equally? If not, then AC vs. Touch AC is still completely viable, and simple. Things like deflection, insight, and circumstance bonuses to AC also apply to touch AC, so there really isn't a need to design new spells either. The Resist Energy spell can already reduce damage from explosives if the damage is elemental. Adding DR to armor is also a possibility, where ballistic armor adds DR against firearm attacks, and not other weapons.
All-in-all, I'm just trying to save you time, effort, and headache here. I've been developing a modern, d20 system, setting/game for years, considering several of the d20 systems currently out there for said game. So all I'm trying to say, is that I've been there, thinking through the exact same things you are, so my advice/feedback doesn't come from speculation or arrogance or entitlement, or anything like that, only from experience/commonality in our situations.
Yeah, sorry I've been away from the boards (pillars of eternity released). Yeah, funny that you mentioned that- I thought back on it afterwards, and was like - wait a sec, so strong people dodge bullets better? Meh.
So anyway, while I appreciate the advice on the books you directed me to, I'm gonna go somewhat with what I have : Guns will generally work the same as they have (advanced firearms 2.0) with the caviat that for automatic fire/bursts, the more you hit by, the more bullets hit. It's messy, and yes, makes automatic fire deadly... which, really, they should be. As for "spraying an area" It'll be in a line for smaller weapons, and slightly larger for support weapons and MGs and the like, and it'll just function the same way.
While I agree that I sometimes wish armor reduced damage/defense was based on cover/movement/position, unfortunately the current optional rules are dicey - on the higher end, it's like every attack always hits. Defense is basically about half of what your armor class *would* be, later on. But attack is as high as it ever was. Automatic 5 hits with anything, sounds like old-school brawling pits.
Anyway, I'll check out that d20 Mass effect thingy too, on the off chance someone's balanced it all out already, but since I've already gotta get into the heavy planning for the game, my time to adapt the rules is limited (I've already gotta start slapping together encounters and notes and such, as my current campaign is 2/3 complete) so for now I'm gonna stick with a mix of what I have and some of what Sellsword mentioned (about adding in the d3 for how many bullets hit, for example, but using the whole "roll to hit, and for every 3/4/5 you hit by, another shell lands) which is still very nasty when rolling against touch. Just the right about of lethal. (at least, until some magi-corp comes out with semi-inexpensive ranged protection armors to mitigate it). Thanks for all the advice everyone. I think I'm just about set.
P.S. The more I read of the mass effect page, the more I really like what they're doing over there. If I had more time, I might reconsider to plug it in, but it'll be a lot more of a transition for the players. For now I gotta keep the rule alterations simple enough that they can all get it on one cheat-sheet, barring specific items and the like.
The Mass Effect D20 is a really impressive fan project. I've been wanting to do a homebrew campaign with it mixing with Golarion. My main issue is explaining how without ridiculous amounts of handwaving. Current Number 1 idea involves the Leviathans subverting some special ops teams and having them blow the Sol Mass Relay while the fleet is about to pop in to assault Earth. Logical reasons behind this for the leviathans. Most the Reaper Forces are at Earth, as well as the Master A.I. that controls them, and blowing a Mass Relay is like detonating a supernova, as explained in the ME2 add on where you do that in a Batarian System to keep the Reapers from using a back door. This massive explosion warping spacetime rips reality and Poof! The massive assault fleet is suddenly in orbit/crash landing on Golarion.