Rise of the Runelords - GMing advice?

[Chogokin]

Good afternoon. I'm going to try running Rise of the Runelords for a small gaming group. I'm interested in any tips, caveats, etc., that you can share.

I'm a fairly experienced gamer and GM, although I have mostly only done Pathfinder as a player.

I don't know how far I'll get, as my players are mostly college students, but I hope to get to or through the 2nd adventure in the series by the end of April.

Mostly I'd like to know if there are structural problems that crop up during play that aren't obvious from reading over the adventure, or anything I could do to improve the flow of the adventure.

Thanks!

[moafnsteel]

I am also planning on running Rise of the Runelords here real soon, and for me the most helpful place was the Rise of the Runelord section of the message boards. People over there have done some awesome work and I highly suggest checking that section out.

[Fruian Thistlefoot]

Flagged to move it to the rise of the runelords thread.

Also consider reading those posts. Lots of good information there.

[Chogokin]

Fruian Thistlefoot wrote:

Flagged to move it to the rise of the runelords thread.

Also consider reading those posts. Lots of good information there.

Ah, cool, didn't notice this board. Thanks!

[Askren]

Chogokin wrote:

I hope to get to or through the 2nd adventure in the series by the end of April.

Holy hell, you want to try and play two chapters in less than 6 sessions?

I would really, REALLY suggest you not do this. It absolutely defeats the purpose of playing an adventure. What you should be playing is a module like Dragon's Demand.

Quote:

Mostly I'd like to know if there are structural problems that crop up during play that aren't obvious from reading over the adventure, or anything I could do to improve the flow of the adventure.

Not rushing through it helps, because you'll very quickly find that playing at such a break-neck place leaves the players no time to actually learn the names of any NPCs, much less develop relationships with them like the adventure expects.

Runelords is one of the favorite APs specifically because Sandpoint is a small and easy-to-understand place where the players don't have to look far to meet likeable NPCs they can develop lasting connections to. The adventure works because the players fall in love with the town.

The major suggestion, again assuming that you're actually giving the adventure the proper time and attention, is to read ahead to the beginning of Book 2 so you can get a sense of what actually happened to Alderen up to and immediately before the campaign starts. Book 1 does exactly nothing to explain to a DM how this character should be played properly, as doing so can only really come from a solid understanding of his past, and that is only discussed in the second book.

[Bellona]

(I'm currently running two groups through RotR. One currently in Burnt Offerings, one in The Skinsaw Murders.)

+1 to stressing how important it is to build up Sandpoint as a nice town that the party wants to protect, and to making Aldern a memorable figure.

Also, get to know the psychology of your players' characters. This is important for two reasons: NPC interaction (Shopkeeper's Daughter, Aldern's obsession, matching haunts to characters, etc.), and "environmental effects" in Book 5. (Personally, after a group is finished with Book 2, I'm going to come clean about tracking sin/virtue points - but not as to why - so that the players can help me keep track of their actions. In some cases, it might even encourage the role-playing.)

Some of the resources on the message boards here include festival games for the Swallowtail Festival, the opening speeches for the same, Nualia's childhood/teen diary, a short side-trek to Chopper's Isle (useful if you're a player short one session, but definitely not meant for L 1 characters), other side treks (some of which are also available in the free, downloadable, fan-made Wayfinder magazines, available on the website here), and various maps.

Here is a link to a summary of resources on one thread, although lots more has been added since.

Many of the maps are meant for use on VTTs (virtual table tops), but here is a link to some which can save a lot of head-scratching.

There is a thread in the RotR section of the boards which focuses on what things GMs would have changed (in hind-sight) after having run the AP.

For Burnt Offerings, I re-built Nualia as a Warpriest 8, and Tsuto as Monk (zen archer) 3/Rogue 1 (sniper).

Above all, keep an eye on this part of the boards. :)

[captain yesterday]

Chogokin wrote:

Fruian Thistlefoot wrote:

Flagged to move it to the rise of the runelords thread.

Also consider reading those posts. Lots of good information there.

Ah, cool, didn't notice this board. Thanks!

Arrr! loot the Boards me boy, best advice i can give ye!

(sorry its pirate night tonight, must get into character:-p)

[Qakisst Vishtani]

Start the first game session before the Swallowtail Festival and give the PCs a quiet introduction to the Sandpoint area and the traditional sport of goblin squashing. use this time to introduce several of the colorful NPCs to the players as interesting and memorable people. Get somebody to try the Hagfish challenge, have somebody see Ameiko and Lonjiku arguing outside the Rusty Dragon. Introduce Lyre, Tsuto, or Orik to the PCs in a casual encounter. Take an entire game session just to get the PCs familiar with what will become their home town.

Then for your second session run the

Swallowtail Festival:

and the goblin invasion that comes with it.

All of this will help build the connection to Sandpoint. If the players don't connect to Sandpoint then they don't really have good reasons to save the town from all the various threats that come in books 1, 2, and 4; let alone good reason to go chasing across Varisia to find the source of the threats in books 5 & 6.

Edit: Oh, and what college are you playing at?

[Haladir]

Give your PCs some time to kick around Sandpoint and get to know and love the people. Make most of the Sandpoint genuinely like and appreciate the PCs. One thing that helps is the Shopkeeper's Daughter encounter, creating enmity between the PCs and the owner of the a general store. That means that they'll need to go to various specialty shops to buy stuff, giving you the chance to flesh out the NPCs and the fell off the town.

I can't emphasize enough how important it is to build up Sandpoint as their adopted home, and a place they want to return to. My biggest failure on my first run of this AP was not doing that.

[barry lyndon]

I found/am finding that the players don't get anywhere near to finding out the info from the chapter intros. There's so much back story that there is almost no way of them finding out and I'm already avoiding the red herrings just because each false clue could easily lead to a whole session that, if done properly, would take a lot of preparation to go nowhere.

When you're reading through it as a GM it's not easy to imagine how confusing it all is for players. There are many NPCs, some important, some not. For instance, making Jervis Stoot too interesting will have the players investigating that area which you then have to find resources for, even though he's almost inconsequential to the story. And finding out Nualia's back story is not likely.

I have begun keeping it as simple as possible and concentrating on making the important NPCs memorable.

[Latrecis]

I would encourage you to in turn encourage your players to have connections to Sandpoint in their character backgrounds. Was raised in Sandpoint, part of a varisian travelling group who has family in Sandpoint, came to town to train with Cyrdak or Sabyl Sorn, a Shoanti 3rd cousin to Hemlock, etc.

And if one of your players has his heart set on playing a ratfolk paladin or tengu sorceror where the connection might be tenuous (but who knows what an inventive player might dream up?) then I would encourage a meta-game conversation: this AP is about Sandpoint and Varisia, it's important you understand that's what your character(s) need to do and need to want to do. Actually, I would encourage such a conversation with all your players regardless of background: Don't bring a character who is heir to the Throne of Mendev and is recruiting for the Crusades since we're not playing that AP or going anywhere near there, etc. (simplistic example.)

We get the occasional post out here from DM's: My players won't follow the AP! What do I do? The diagnosis is always the same: the character backgrounds don't integrate them with Sandpoint and Magnimar and the players have not accepted the by-definition restrictions of an AP - you need to solve the problems of Sandpoint not go off hunting unicorns. (Unless you as DM are open to turning it into a complete Sandbox - and if so, more power to you!)

[captain yesterday]

Hmm... with 4 & 1/6th Adventure Paths set in Varisia (not to mention all the PFS scenarios!) i wonder how difficult it would be to go all super sandbox with Varisia:-)

[the Lorax]

barry lyndon wrote:

I found/am finding that the players don't get anywhere near to finding out the info from the chapter intros. There's so much back story that there is almost no way of them finding out.

I've found that the background is really more interesting and useful to the DM. The DM needs to KNOW that information so that when players do stray he has some guides. Running the campaign is about the actions of the players - they are not just characters in a novel along for the ride, destined to just play their part and follow a linear flow chart.

Running an AP does a MASSIVE amount of work for you. Feel free to let the PCs wander around, pick up snippets of information, and follow red herrings. Every encounter does not need to be challenging or part of the main plot. Heck most of Burnt Offerings is not part of the main plot of Rise - the whole point is to introduce the players to the town and to get them to have a connection to it.

Let the PCs follow red herrings.
Let them get entangled romantically.
Let them interact with helpful, competent, useful NPCs.
Let them explore Chopper's Isle.
And buy it - nothing says connection to town like owning a part of it!
Let them meet NPCs and like them, and then do awful things to the NPCs.
Or let the NPCs help them out of a jam.
Or let the NPCs chase down some of those red herrings.

Having at least a couple of PCs who grew up in and around town is very useful - then you can just tell the players some things about the NPC when they meet them. You can spoon feed lots of the background info that way without having to do a big info dump.

[Story Archer]

Chogokin wrote:

Good afternoon. I'm going to try running Rise of the Runelords for a small gaming group. I'm interested in any tips, caveats, etc., that you can share.

One great red herring I used to lead in from Burnt Offerings to Skinsaw Murders:

I had Tsuto infatuated with his sister Ameiko instead of Nualia, that infatuation leading to his sneaking into the Glassworks and contacting her - his murder of their father 'freed them' to be together Lannister-style, which of course she wanted no part of. The PC's rescued her and Tsuto escaped only to be killed in the showdown with Nualia at Thistletop.

I had Shayliss do her thing with one of the PC's, but also be seen to flirt with Aldern who inquired after her during the Boar Hunt. He was always magnanimous but still in competition with the PC for her affections. Shayliss' parents prefer the match with an established aristocrat and prevented her and the PC from continuing the affair. After a break, unbeknownst to most, Shayliss continued receiving secret messages from Aldern though he remained hidden in his new form.

Ameiko eventually got involved with the PC that Shayliss had made her move on, being played as a much cooler 'guys girl' while Shayliss played the sorority-girl type.

When the Skinsaw murders began, a message was left for the PC at the Rusty Dragon, insinuating that 'she was his and would be so forever'... it was Aldern (his Lust obsession towards Shayliss and his Envy towards the PC), but the group immediately assumed that it was somehow an undead version of Tsuto referring to Ameiko (she even suggests it if the PC's don't)... it wasn't until the Hambley farm that they found the link to Foxglove Manor that it all clicked, and they rushed back to town, only to find Shayliss missing. The trip to the Misgivings became a rescue mission as much as anything and Iesha's ire against Aldern was as much to prevent him from doing to another girl what he did to her. All in all it really worked out well.

There were plenty of other changes I made, tweaks to fit the larger campaign I'm running, but that was one of my favorites in the early going.

[barry lyndon]

the Lorax wrote:

barry lyndon wrote:

I found/am finding that the players don't get anywhere near to finding out the info from the chapter intros. There's so much back story that there is almost no way of them finding out.

I've found that the background is really more interesting and useful to the DM. The DM needs to KNOW that information so that when players do stray he has some guides. Running the campaign is about the actions of the players - they are not just characters in a novel along for the ride, destined to just play their part and follow a linear flow chart.

Running an AP does a MASSIVE amount of work for you. Feel free to let the PCs wander around, pick up snippets of information, and follow red herrings. Every encounter does not need to be challenging or part of the main plot. Heck most of Burnt Offerings is not part of the main plot of Rise - the whole point is to introduce the players to the town and to get them to have a connection to it.

Let the PCs follow red herrings.
Let them get entangled romantically.
Let them interact with helpful, competent, useful NPCs.
Let them explore Chopper's Isle.
And buy it - nothing says connection to town like owning a part of it!
Let them meet NPCs and like them, and then do awful things to the NPCs.
Or let the NPCs help them out of a jam.
Or let the NPCs chase down some of those red herrings.

With my group it's not that I'm reluctant to do the work, I have Choppers Isle, Paupers Graves, The Old Light, and many more, all mapped up ready to go should they want to. It's more that I already have to lead them as it is, subtly remind them to loot, search rooms, etc. I don't think they're played a campaign this detailed before.

The players are quite invested though. Ameiko's pregnant (the Barbarian father doesn't know it yet), The oracle's Haunted curse, actually led to her investigating an incident that occurred 40 years ago that resulted in solving a spiritual puzzle with the gravedigger's help, the Gnome wizard's cousin was found suffering from The Bleaching and almost mute, working as a scribe in Zantus's care and the Barbarian has plans to take down the Sczarni who have designs on expanding operations to the other Inns, the Rusty Dragon is next on their list. When a session is resolved and they're in Sandpoint I let them know they have some free days between sessions. Then they can work on their individual Sandpoint-related missions in private sessions or even over email.

It's like a season of Dynasty here.

[Lava Child]

I just ran the first night of burnt offerings tonight. The PCs got to sandpoint, met a lot of NPCs and had a great time. Taking the time to introduce NPCs and get the players to feel at home in sandpoint is a very good idea. There are lots of resources on the net - a GMs guide and a list of inhabitants in particular - that are useful. Don't rush into the festival - give it a session.

[Haladir]

I had it be Katrine Vindler got involed with the PC Ulfen barbarian during the Swallowtail Featival, while she and Banny Harker were on the rocks. They carried on for a while during the course of Burnt Offerings, until Banny Harker pulled a romantic stunt in the Rusty Dragon to woo her back. It worked, and the PC was somewhat humiliated. Two days later, when both Katrine and Banny were dead, the PC was Hemlock's suspect #1!

[Chogokin]

I just wanted to thank everyone for their input so far.

I started my campaign this Saturday. I got through character creation, and got the group into Sandpoint, followed by a short combat encounter with a goblin scouting party when the PC's decided to head out of town.

Following the advice, I worked to get the players invested in the setting (my players are not terribly familiar with Pathfinder or the Golarion setting), so this took some time just talking about the backgrounds of their races and ethnicities, the character motivations, etc.

Once we had some functional PC's, we entered Sandpoint. As we are a player short, I'm supplementing the party with a GM character, a Halfling Rogue who is a Sandpoint native. He will serve as a 'native guide' for the group, and is drawn to the adventurers by the prospect of something interesting to do. The dwarf fighter, a Hagfish Hopeful, immediately headed for the Hagfish, and almost beat the challenge (I set the DC to 25, something impossible to achieve without a significant investment in CON and Fortitude saves, but not prospectively impossible for lower level PCs).

The party's druid decided to participate in some friendly gambling, coming out slightly ahead (which I may spin off into an encounter with disgruntled gamblers who want their money back) before deciding to get back to nature by leaving via Sandpoint's southeastern gate. The wizard, who had been spending time in the bookstore, elected to follow her out. The rogue, noticing that half the party was heading out into the forest, alone, at night, grabbed the fighter, who was washing away his sorrows with ale, and followed after.

I decided that this was a great time to have a small party of Seven Tooth goblins ambush the foolish adventurers. Being somewhat overexcited, they started singing the Goblin Ambush song, alerting the PCs that something was up. However, they also took advantage of their stealth abilities and the darkness to fire arrows at range. This could have been a much more painful game of "Chasing Goblins in a Dark Forest while they Shoot you with Arrows," but the fighter was a dwarf, the wizard a half-orc, and the druid a half-elf, so the darkness wasn't as big an advantage as it could have been. The druid had a high Perception skill, and the wizard summoned an Eagle, and collectively made short work of the goblins, though not without minor injuries.

Anyway, I think things are off to a good start.

One question:

Is there a table or list of suggested DCs for learning/knowing or identifying Thassilonian relics? The discovery of a Sihedron is a significant element of Burnt Offerings, and I'm curious if there is a suggested difficulty for identifying such objects and their significance.

Thanks!

[Phntm888]

I think there's a list of suggested DCs in book 4 when they find the library under Jorgenfist. I set the DC for identifying the Sihedron rune at 25, and everything else was even higher. My party's Wizard was quite shocked when he rolled a 33 on a Knowledge (history) check, and I told him it wasn't high enough. They aren't supposed to figure out too much about Thassilon until boook 4+, so keep the DCs high.

[wraithstrike]

Askren wrote:

Chogokin wrote:

I hope to get to or through the 2nd adventure in the series by the end of April.

Holy hell, you want to try and play two chapters in less than 6 sessions?

I would really, REALLY suggest you not do this. It absolutely defeats the purpose of playing an adventure. What you should be playing is a module like Dragon's Demand.

It can be done, but it requires longer sessions. I use to run sessions around 8 hours and finish a book in about 2 session as a GM.

Now if he is only using 4 to 6 hour sessions then I don't see this happening without him cutting quiet a few things out which will impact the story.