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Human Fighter, I don't see how the RAI of an over glorified cure spell is EVER intended to bring someone back from what amounts to a death effect (without the moniker "death effect").
Breath of Life is clearly intended to bring you back from hp damage and hp damage alone.
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This is my interpretation of how it works.
Strength score is 15, and you took strength damage from a poison so you have 14 strength damage. The shadow hits you for one strength damage, so you die.
I don't believe there is "shadow ability damage" or "negative energy ability damage", but rather when a shadows strength damage Su ability affects you, and your score meets or exceeds, then you enjoy the create spawn.
Breath of Life is clearly intended to bring you back from hp damage and hp damage alone.
Please cite a source for this.
Keep in mind:
PRD - "In case it matters, a dead character, no matter how he died, has hit points equal to or less than his negative Constitution score."
I don't think anyone can argue against the RAW.
RAI, you die, then breath of life brings you back to life. What people need to figure out is if that negative energy effect sticks onto that ability damage you took. I don't see any evidence that is does stick around, and it seems that it's the attack that is made that would kill you.
If people believe that you wake up to die again, then your character would forever be haunted regardless if you survived a shadow, to die if your str score met or exceeded the current score. There's no way that can be correct.
Since raise dead and other spells specifically say when they bring you back to life and cure ability damage and BoL does not then it stands to reason that it does not.
And since you the shadow's str damage is still in affect then you should stay dead. At no point does any rule say, once you die the supernatural str damage becomes normal str damage, and the intent of BoL seems to be to fix hit point damage deaths only.
Yeah shadows suck.
We can start an FAQ asking does breath of life allow you to live again if you are killed by a shadow's strength drain, but to me it seems you(whoever is killed) would be out of luck.
I keep asking, but people don't really give an explanation. Do you really keep track of special ability damage?
Human Fighter, I don't see how the RAI of an over glorified cure spell is EVER intended to bring someone back from what amounts to a death effect (without the moniker "death effect").
Breath of Life is clearly intended to bring you back from hp damage and hp damage alone.
What am I missing exactly, with this?
This spell cures 5d8 points of damage + 1 point per caster level (maximum +25).
Unlike other spells that heal damage, breath of life can bring recently slain creatures back to life. If cast upon a creature that has died within 1 round, apply the healing from this spell to the creature. If the healed creature's hit point total is at a negative amount less than its Constitution score, it comes back to life and stabilizes at its new hit point total. If the creature's hit point total is at a negative amount equal to or greater than its Constitution score, the creature remains dead. Creatures brought back to life through breath of life gain a temporary negative level that lasts for 1 day.
Creatures slain by death effects cannot be saved by breath of life.
Like cure spells, breath of life deals damage to undead creatures rather than curing them, and cannot bring them back to life.
To me, as written, it will bring you back to life. I don't understand the issue, so if you can explain it, I'd appreciate it.
Also, this FAQ relevant for explaining death effects? EDIT: I seriously don't know how to define death effects beyond things saying DEATH EFFECT, so I honestly don't know how to define a death effect otherwise.
I keep asking, but people don't really give an explanation. Do you really keep track of special ability damage?I don't think anyone can argue against the RAW.
RAI, you die, then breath of life brings you back to life. What people need to figure out is if that negative energy effect sticks onto that ability damage you took. I don't see any evidence that is does stick around, and it seems that it's the attack that is made that would kill you.
If people believe that you wake up to die again, then your character would forever be haunted regardless if you survived a shadow, to die if your str score met or exceeded the current score. There's no way that can be correct.
Since raise dead and other spells specifically say when they bring you back to life and cure ability damage and BoL does not then it stands to reason that it does not.
And since you the shadow's str damage is still in affect then you should stay dead. At no point does any rule say, once you die the supernatural str damage becomes normal str damage, and the intent of BoL seems to be to fix hit point damage deaths only.
Yeah shadows suck.
We can start an FAQ asking does breath of life allow you to live again if you are killed by a shadow's strength drain, but to me it seems you(whoever is killed) would be out of luck.
You die when str damage from a shadow takes you to 0. I think we can agree on this.
Now when BoL hits you, your damage is still 0. I think we can agree on this also.
Why is your str score 0? Because "this"(shadow damage) made it so.
Nothing has happened to undo the shadow's damage which made you dead.
I see nothing in the book that says once you die the shadow's damage is turned into normal str damage.
I will start an FAQ on the topic, but before doing so I will present the question here, to make sure it is formatted correctly. I will do this in my next post here.
Wraith, you actually add up the ability damage and it needs to meet or exceed your current score.
You would need to prove you count the ability damage differently, and I honestly don't know where there are any rules that do that. It seems that if the damage it deals to you has your score meet or exceed at that moment, then the create spawn and character death begins.
So in theory, you die, you BoL, you are unconscious until your ability damage drops below your score.
The fact that BoL heals hitpoint damage and that is the mechanism it uses to bring someone back clearly indicates that it is intended to revive characters who die from hp damage UNLESS that hp damage is a death effect (as some are).
So what that leaves us with:
1) If you died from hp damage BoL can bring you back unless that hp damage was a death effect.
2) If you died from some other means healing your hps does not help, you died from something unrelated to hp damage (despite what the section Fergie cited states).
This is not the spell that beats everything, why would a spell that is lower level than Raise Dead do something that Raise Dead cannot even do?
Really people, try thinking about this a moment. When James Jacobs created this spell he wrote it with the intent that it can undo hp damage that killed you. Just ask him.
Go ahead, ask him if he intended it to bring you back from the dead due to non-hp related death. If he says yes then I am wrong and you will be right. :P
Do not FAQ this. Do not FAQ this. Do not FAQ this.
I am only presenting the question here because I am about to start a new FAQ, but I want the question to be presented in a manner that is acceptable.
Once it is satisfactory I will open the FAQ.
Title: Does Breath of Life return you to life even if your strength damage is greater than your strength score?
Opposing viewpoints:
1. Once you die the shadow's strength damage has had its effect, so you should be able to come back to life with Breath of Life. In essence the shadow's strength damage behaves just like normal strength damage after you have died, so your strength damage is not a factor.
VS
2. Breath of Life was intended to bring you back from death due to hit point loss, and since your strength score would still be less than your strength damage from the shadow you stay dead. Dying does nothing to change the shadow's strength damage that kills you into normal strength damage.
If anyone has any adjustments to be made post them below.
I will start an FAQ on the topic, but before doing so I will present the question here, to make sure it is formatted correctly. I will do this in my next post here.Here.
That is not the same thing since the shadow str damage is not like normal str damage. If they die from constitution damage we know they are still dead because you can't be alive with 0 con.
PS:Then again the devs can probably figure out the intent. If not then we can specify with the next FAQ if it is needed.
Gauss, the spell states nothing about it having to be about dying from hit point loss.
Unlike other spells that heal damage, breath of life can bring recently slain creatures back to life. If cast upon a creature that has died within 1 round, apply the healing from this spell to the creature.
Wraith, with respect, please go read the rules for how ability damage works. You add the damage up in a total, and it doesn't go to 0. You could have a million ability damage to a score.
The question I keep mentioning that I feel is the most important is do you keep track of the damage differently? Is there anything but "ABILITY DAMAGE", because I haven't seen any evidence otherwise.
Gauss, the spell states nothing about it having to be about dying from hit point loss.
Unlike other spells that heal damage, breath of life can bring recently slain creatures back to life. If cast upon a creature that has died within 1 round, apply the healing from this spell to the creature.Wraith, with respect, please go read the rules for how ability damage works. You add the damage up in a total, and it doesn't go to 0. You could have a million ability damage to a score.
The question I keep mentioning that I feel is the most important is do you keep track of the damage differently? Is there anything but "ABILITY DAMAGE", because I haven't seen any evidence otherwise.
I know how ability damage works. My other post have used that method. It is just easier to say it the other way.
No matter if I say your strength score is 0 or if I say your damage is greater than your actual score the result is the same. You are still dead.
I know how ability damage works. My other post have used that method. It is just easier to say it the other way.Gauss, the spell states nothing about it having to be about dying from hit point loss.
Unlike other spells that heal damage, breath of life can bring recently slain creatures back to life. If cast upon a creature that has died within 1 round, apply the healing from this spell to the creature.Wraith, with respect, please go read the rules for how ability damage works. You add the damage up in a total, and it doesn't go to 0. You could have a million ability damage to a score.
The question I keep mentioning that I feel is the most important is do you keep track of the damage differently? Is there anything but "ABILITY DAMAGE", because I haven't seen any evidence otherwise.
I too was doing this, and the other day misspoke saying mage armor benefits touch ac.
No matter if I say your strength score is 0 or if I say your damage is greater than your actual score the result is the same. You are still dead.
I keep urging people to discuss what I keep mentioning. You're dead from that damage which is considered an negative energy effect. There doesn't seem to be anything implying that you have special ability damage on your character though, so once that damage is resolved then it shouldn't matter if you're brought back to life in terms of rekilling your character.
If someone has proof that you take special ability damage on your character, then BoL brings you back to life, and you're unconscious.
I too was doing this, and the other day misspoke saying mage armor benefits touch ac.I know how ability damage works. My other post have used that method. It is just easier to say it the other way.Gauss, the spell states nothing about it having to be about dying from hit point loss.
Unlike other spells that heal damage, breath of life can bring recently slain creatures back to life. If cast upon a creature that has died within 1 round, apply the healing from this spell to the creature.Wraith, with respect, please go read the rules for how ability damage works. You add the damage up in a total, and it doesn't go to 0. You could have a million ability damage to a score.
The question I keep mentioning that I feel is the most important is do you keep track of the damage differently? Is there anything but "ABILITY DAMAGE", because I haven't seen any evidence otherwise.
That is a completely different argument since that would allow mage armor to act like a deflection bonus to AC against everyone when it only applies to incorporeal creatures.
In that case you have not just changed a number, but it's class.
Since we are discussing how a shadow jacks you up the result is not really changing.
The shadow's ability allows for str damage to kill you when otherwise it would not. How you track it has no affect on whether or not it the ability stops affecting you at death.
No matter if I say your strength score is 0 or if I say your damage is greater than your actual score the result is the same. You are still dead.I keep urging people to discuss what I keep mentioning. You're dead from that damage which is considered an negative energy effect. There doesn't seem to be anything implying that you have special ability damage on your character though, so once that damage is resolved then it shouldn't matter if you're brought back to life in terms of rekilling your character.
If someone has proof that you take special ability damage on your character, then BoL brings you back to life, and you're unconscious.
That is the problem. You think the effect is one and done, and I see nothing to say the str damage becomes normal str damage after you die. Before breath of life this was a non-issue so there is likely no specific rule that says which way it works. Honestly this may never have crossed the devs mind when they made that spell, and we may just be saying how we think they will rule in order to keep the rules consistent.
In any event expect variation in PFS until something official comes out.
Keep in mind Wraithstrike, normally you don't die from having 0 strength, you might have to spell it out with shadows or change it to "ability damage that would kill you".
edit: the question you're formulating for FAQ.
I too was doing this, and the other day misspoke saying mage armor benefits touch ac.I know how ability damage works. My other post have used that method. It is just easier to say it the other way.Gauss, the spell states nothing about it having to be about dying from hit point loss.
Unlike other spells that heal damage, breath of life can bring recently slain creatures back to life. If cast upon a creature that has died within 1 round, apply the healing from this spell to the creature.Wraith, with respect, please go read the rules for how ability damage works. You add the damage up in a total, and it doesn't go to 0. You could have a million ability damage to a score.
The question I keep mentioning that I feel is the most important is do you keep track of the damage differently? Is there anything but "ABILITY DAMAGE", because I haven't seen any evidence otherwise.
That is a completely different argument since that would allow mage armor to act like a deflection bonus to AC against everyone when it only applies to incorporeal creatures.
In that case you have not just changed a number, but it's class.
Since we are discussing how a shadow jacks you up the result is not really changing.
The shadow's ability allows for str damage to kill you when otherwise it would not. How you track it has no affect on whether or not it the ability stops affecting you at death.
My point was that I was misspoke from how others say the wrong stuff constantly. I'm aware of how mage armor works with incorporeal, and I hate it when people say it affects touch ac in general.
Keep in mind Wraithstrike, normally you don't die from having 0 strength, you might have to spell it out with shadows or change it to "ability damage that would kill you".
edit: the question you're formulating for FAQ.
I know. I will change it, if it is needed for the FAQ. I didnt' realize I had written it that way for my FAQ example. I thought Human Fighter was referencing another post I had written.
Wraith, why do you think it's special ability damage, and not added up as normal ability damage? The exception is that when you take it that it may cause you to die. There would need to be proof that you have special ability damage on your character to keep you dead.
Gauss, the spell states nothing about it having to be about dying from hit point loss.
Unlike other spells that heal damage, breath of life can bring recently slain creatures back to life. If cast upon a creature that has died within 1 round, apply the healing from this spell to the creature.Wraith, with respect, please go read the rules for how ability damage works. You add the damage up in a total, and it doesn't go to 0. You could have a million ability damage to a score.
The question I keep mentioning that I feel is the most important is do you keep track of the damage differently? Is there anything but "ABILITY DAMAGE", because I haven't seen any evidence otherwise.
Human Fighter, did you read the part where I discussed "intent"? Please keep my posts in context. Are you going to ignore my other points regarding intent?
Wraith, why do you think it's special ability damage, and not added up as normal ability damage? The exception is that when you take it that it may cause you to die. There would need to be proof that you have special ability damage on your character to keep you dead.
The ability kills you by forcing your strength damage to go beyond your strength score.
I will edit what I wrote before so it is written correctly, and not short-handed for convenience:
You die when str damage from a shadow is higher than your strength score. I think we can agree on this.Now when BoL hits you, the damage is still higher than your str score. I think we can agree on this also.
Why is your str score lower than the damage? Because "this"(shadow damage) made it so.
Nothing has happened to undo the shadow's damage which made you dead.
I see nothing in the book that says once you die the shadow's damage which obviously is not exactly like normal str damage has no affect.
From my PoV proof is needed in the other direction. I am not disagreeing on how it is added up. I am disagreeing that it stop behaving like normal str damage for the purpose of you being dead.
If the shadow takes you to 16 str damage and that kills you, and BoL tries to bring you back to life then you still have 16 str damage so you are still dead.
Not higher, equal or higher:
A creature dies if this Strength damage equals or exceeds its actual Strength score.
In my example I made it higher. I know what the books says, but if the damage is higher then it is one less point of contention.
Human Fighter, did you read the part where I discussed "intent"? Please keep my posts in context. Are you going to ignore my other points regarding intent?Gauss, the spell states nothing about it having to be about dying from hit point loss.
Unlike other spells that heal damage, breath of life can bring recently slain creatures back to life. If cast upon a creature that has died within 1 round, apply the healing from this spell to the creature.Wraith, with respect, please go read the rules for how ability damage works. You add the damage up in a total, and it doesn't go to 0. You could have a million ability damage to a score.
The question I keep mentioning that I feel is the most important is do you keep track of the damage differently? Is there anything but "ABILITY DAMAGE", because I haven't seen any evidence otherwise.
Never intended to ignore it, but if you want me to publicly acknowledge it then here it is. Gauss you were discussing intent. Gauss, you agree that RAW BoL works then?
In 3rd edition and Pathfinder, certain monsters are very deadly for the CR, like shadows and Will O' the wisp.
4th edition 'fixed' this by making monsters much more equal in their power for their CR. It was, for many gamers, less fun. The danger of the game is what makes it fun for many of us, and so these deadly monsters appear from time to time. I believe that is, on the whole, good. But ask me again when I lose a character in such a fast, savage way. I feel for the OP.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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The ability does say you count the Str damage differently.
It says "A creature dies if this Strength damage equals or exceeds its actual Strength score." (Bold for emphasis)
By my read, RAW, only shadow-dealt Str damage applies to this condition. If you have a Str of 14, and you take 13 points of Str damage from poison, and 1 point of Str damage from a shadow, you don't die. This (Shadow) Str damage doesn't equal your actual strength score. You would still fall unconscious because your total Str damage equals your score.
BoL doesn't help you then, because the answer to "Is this (Shadow) Str damage equal to or greater than your actual Str score?" is still "Yes." You die again.
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@Benchak, the issue is there aren't any rules for what to call this ability damage apart from being ability damage, so how do you really track it with that interpretation? Using lesser restoration on strength, how do you go about healing the shadow ability damage from the non-shadow ability damage? The game doesn't distinguish as far as I know different ability damage.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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@Benchak, the issue is there aren't any rules for what to call this ability damage apart from being ability damage, so how do you really track it with that interpretation? Using lesser restoration on strength, how do you go about healing the shadow ability damage from the non-shadow ability damage? The game doesn't distinguish as far as I know different ability damage.
It doesn't give it a special name, but the implication that Shadow damage is different from normal damage is clear. The game has a few situations like this where damage isn't given a special name, but has to be treated differently from normal damage. Take nonlethal damage from environmental heat. It's nonlethal damage, it works just like nonlethal damage, they don't call it "overheat damage," but unlike other nonlethal damage you can't recover from it until you cool off. You have to track your nonlethal damage from exposure separately.
You track it by writing a note :)
As for healing it, that's a trickier situation. The rules don't cover whether you heal ability damage in the order it's received, or if you can specifically heal Shadow damage first and Poison damage later. That feels like a corner case to me though, and not particularly relevant to this situation. Might be worth a FAQ though :)
@Benchak, the issue is there aren't any rules for what to call this ability damage apart from being ability damage, so how do you really track it with that interpretation? Using lesser restoration on strength, how do you go about healing the shadow ability damage from the non-shadow ability damage? The game doesn't distinguish as far as I know different ability damage.
In most cases you won't have damage from two sources. If all the damage is from the shadow then it is all "this" damage which is the damage that kills you.
Restoration cures ability damage no matter the source. If you somehow have ability damage from 2 sources I would just say all of it adds up to determine when you died, but some might argue that the specific shadow damage is what kills you, and the other damage would just paralyze you.
The 2nd version is more friendly for the players, and I might use that one instead. The game by the general rules not does not make distinction, but the shadow creature has a line saying there is a difference because "this" damage actually kills you. Otherwise if it was from poison you would not die.
The damage you mention is received and can only be removed under very specific circumstances, and I understand why you used it as an example, but the ability damage doesn't have any rules supporting it to be similar.
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BoL point is that it bring you back from being killed by hit point damage, not from other kinds of damage.
Please cite a source for that.
Note: PRD - "In case it matters, a dead character, no matter how he died, has hit points equal to or less than his negative Constitution score."
Notice what I said:
"BOL has brought you back to life? RAW, yes, even if it hasn't healed the relevant damage."What you try to disprove is a RAI comment, but disproving it is irrelevant as the RAW of the rule say that you will be turned into a shadow.
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The damage you mention is received and can only be removed under very specific circumstances, and I understand why you used it as an example, but the ability damage doesn't have any rules supporting it to be similar.
The damage from the shadow is received under very specific circumstances (Shadows!)
That it can be removed more generally is besides the point.And the ability damage does have a rule supporting it working in a similar fashion--the shadow ability says it works differently.
The damage you mention is received and can only be removed under very specific circumstances, and I understand why you used it as an example, but the ability damage doesn't have any rules supporting it to be similar.
The ability rules are general rules and won't cover specific cases, just like how the general strength score rules wont' kill you.
Sometimes you have to look at all the rules you are using together to figure out the end result.
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Strength damage is not strength drain, but strength damage just like hit point damage does accumulate.
So if you take 8 points in the first hit, and 8 points in the second hit you have taken 16 strength damage.
If you score is only 14 then you die(if a shadow is involved) because 14 is less than 16.
"This" strength damage is referring to the strength damage from a shadow, not any one hit.
edit: You can try to make this argument in PFS or at a GM's table, but shadows have worked this way for a long time, and they won't really care so trying to push this argument really won't matter. At best someone will start and FAQ and the devs will say the damage accumlates, which means people will run it the way they always have.
It can be reasonably argued that only the damage from shadows attacks is relevant for the shadows ability, so if the character had some form of strength damage from other sources it don't matter and the strength damage done by shadows alone should be equal of superior than his strength score.
Sometimes you have to look at all the rules you are using together to figure out the end result.
Yes, and in this case there aren't specific rules on how to treat this ability damage like there are with the nonlethal you take from heat environment.
The damage from the shadow is received under very specific circumstances (Shadows!)
No, it is actually just ability damage that you receive it initially as an negative energy effect. I feel the best interpretation for RAI is that if the ability damage meets or exceeds from that damage, then you are triggering all the awful.
It can be reasonably argued that only the damage from shadows attacks is relevant for the shadows ability, so if the character had some form of strength damage from other sources it don't matter and the strength damage done by shadows alone should be equal of superior than his strength score.Strength damage is not strength drain, but strength damage just like hit point damage does accumulate.
So if you take 8 points in the first hit, and 8 points in the second hit you have taken 16 strength damage.
If you score is only 14 then you die(if a shadow is involved) because 14 is less than 16.
"This" strength damage is referring to the strength damage from a shadow, not any one hit.
edit: You can try to make this argument in PFS or at a GM's table, but shadows have worked this way for a long time, and they won't really care so trying to push this argument really won't matter. At best someone will start and FAQ and the devs will say the damage accumlates, which means people will run it the way they always have.
I brought that up in another post, but I don't know if it was this thread or the other one, so I agree that is a valid point.
Sometimes you have to look at all the rules you are using together to figure out the end result.Yes, and in this case there aren't specific rules on how to treat this ability damage like there are with the nonlethal you take from heat environment.
Let me put it this way since you did not understand what I am saying. Sometimes you have to look at the rules in order to figure out how they interact, and that interaction will not be written "word for word" in the book. That is why I said you will have to figure it out.
And sometimes the devs never thought of certain combinations so there are no rules.
In any event I don't think either of us will convince the other one so I am bowing out.
It can be reasonably argued that only the damage from shadows attacks is relevant for the shadows ability, so if the character had some form of strength damage from other sources it don't matter and the strength damage done by shadows alone should be equal of superior than his strength score.Strength damage is not strength drain, but strength damage just like hit point damage does accumulate.
So if you take 8 points in the first hit, and 8 points in the second hit you have taken 16 strength damage.
If you score is only 14 then you die(if a shadow is involved) because 14 is less than 16.
"This" strength damage is referring to the strength damage from a shadow, not any one hit.
edit: You can try to make this argument in PFS or at a GM's table, but shadows have worked this way for a long time, and they won't really care so trying to push this argument really won't matter. At best someone will start and FAQ and the devs will say the damage accumlates, which means people will run it the way they always have.
It can be, but it's not RAI. The intent behind the rule regarding the Shadow's attack, is that it affects your Strength score, and it's checked off of the previously damaged, drained, lost, whatever ability score it effectively is.
So if I have an 18 Strength, and say I got poisoned with 2 Strength Damage, all the Shadow has to do is affect me with 16 Strength damage, and I become one of the fold.
In PFS, unless tactics state otherwise, monsters will never attack a downed character if there are still others that are up.
Breath of Life works. It says it works, and nothing says it doesn't work, so it works.
You don't become a shadow if you're alive, and Greater Shadows don't create spawn anyway.
You're alive, at 0 strength, and the monsters will ignore you if the GM is following the rules of PFS.
/thread
