Double weapon in one hand


Rules Questions


Quote:
A creature wielding a double weapon in one hand can't use it as a double weapon—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round.

Does this mean i can wield one end of double weapon in one hand? Or is this clause made in case of weapons 1 catergory smaller than character?

Sczarni

I read it as the character can only use one end of said weapon as a 1-handed weapon if using only one hand to wield that weapon.

Now, I haven't checked in a while, but I believe all of the double weapons are listed under the two-handed weapons section of the equipment tables.

So double weapons are unique in that they are 2-handed weapons that can also be used as a 1-handed weapon and a light-weapon - and apparently as merely a 1-handed weapon if being used in one hand.

I think it's worded that way because of feats like Power Attack that state you get extra damage if using a 2-handed weapon, or a one-handed weapon in 2 hands... So if you are using a double weapon in one hand and attacking with only one end of it you don't get the extra power attack damage despite it being a 2-handed weapon.

Edit: After re-reading what I wrote I've come to the conclusion that I may not be articulating what I'm trying to say very well.


Krodjin wrote:

I read it as the character can only use one end of said weapon as a 1-handed weapon if using only one hand to wield that weapon.

Now, I haven't checked in a while, but I believe all of the double weapons are listed under the two-handed weapons section of the equipment tables.

So double weapons are unique in that they are 2-handed weapons that can also be used as a 1-handed weapon and a light-weapon - and apparently as merely a 1-handed weapon if being used in one hand.

I think it's worded that way because of feats like Power Attack that state you get extra damage if using a 2-handed weapon, or a one-handed weapon in 2 hands... So if you are using a double weapon in one hand and attacking with only one end of it you don't get the extra power attack damage despite it being a 2-handed weapon.

Edit: After re-reading what I wrote I've come to the conclusion that I may not be articulating what I'm trying to say very well.

I understand what you mean.

But i wonder if there is anywhere its says plainly "you can wield double weapon in one hand"


DarkPhoenixx wrote:
But i wonder if there is anywhere its says plainly "you can wield double weapon in one hand"

It's a two-handed weapon. Under normal circumstances you can not wield them in one hand. Quarterstaff Master lets you treat a Quarterstaff as a one-handed weapon, Titan Mauler can wield two-handed weapons in one hand. There are ways to one hand double weapons, but by default they can not be.


What it's saying is that if, for any special reason, you are able to wield a double weapon in one hand, you cannot use its double property for TWF. You must commit 2 hands, even if you could otherwise wield it in just one. Almost all double weapons are 2h, save for the Taiaha, a primative weapon which is 1h. You can wield a taiaha in one hand, but must commit 2 hands to use it double. Same goes for an undersized double weapon. You could wield a double sword one size smaller as 1h, but must use both hands to use it as a double.


Excelent.

Sczarni

Kazaan wrote:
What it's saying is that if, for any special reason, you are able to wield a double weapon in one hand, you cannot use its double property for TWF. You must commit 2 hands, even if you could otherwise wield it in just one. Almost all double weapons are 2h, save for the Taiaha, a primative weapon which is 1h. You can wield a taiaha in one hand, but must commit 2 hands to use it double. Same goes for an undersized double weapon. You could wield a double sword one size smaller as 1h, but must use both hands to use it as a double.

I don't think it's limited to special reasons... As a fairly mundane example I would say that the rules allow an Orc, who is say climbing a ships rigging or hanging from a rope (with one hand), to make an attack with his Orc-Double axe using just his free hand. However, he can only attack with one end of the weapon in that instance.


No big cause it says "if you wield a double weapon in one hand". It doesn't say "you may wield a double weapon in one hand". You need some other rules element to allow you to wield it in just one hand. You can't swing just one head of an Orc double axe for the same reason you can't swing a Greataxe with one hand.


Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

There is a weapon with the double quality, that is also a one-handed weapon: the Taiaha (Ultimate Combat).

However, the consensus of opinion is that you cannot utilise the double quality of the weapon unless you use it in two hands.

But that does mean you can use a Large Taiaha at a -2 and start off doing 2d8/1d8 with your double weapon...

Sczarni

Kazaan wrote:
No big cause it says "if you wield a double weapon in one hand". It doesn't say "you may wield a double weapon in one hand". You need some other rules element to allow you to wield it in just one hand. You can't swing just one head of an Orc double axe for the same reason you can't swing a Greataxe with one hand.

That's not exactly what it says.

double weapons wrote:

Double Weapons: Dire flails, dwarven urgroshes, gnome hooked hammers, orc double axes, quarterstaves, and two-bladed swords are double weapons. A character can fight with both ends of a double weapon as if fighting with two weapons, but he incurs all the normal attack penalties associated with two-weapon combat, just as though the character were wielding a one-handed weapon and a light weapon.

The character can also choose to use a double weapon two-handed, attacking with only one end of it. A creature wielding a double weapon in one hand can't use it as a double weapon—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round.

No "ifs" or "mays". Simply "a creature wielding a double weapon in one hand"... To me that makes it read as a viable option straight out of the box. The only caveat is "only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round".

Grand Lodge

Krodjin wrote:
Kazaan wrote:
No big cause it says "if you wield a double weapon in one hand". It doesn't say "you may wield a double weapon in one hand". You need some other rules element to allow you to wield it in just one hand. You can't swing just one head of an Orc double axe for the same reason you can't swing a Greataxe with one hand.

That's not exactly what it says.

double weapons wrote:

Double Weapons: Dire flails, dwarven urgroshes, gnome hooked hammers, orc double axes, quarterstaves, and two-bladed swords are double weapons. A character can fight with both ends of a double weapon as if fighting with two weapons, but he incurs all the normal attack penalties associated with two-weapon combat, just as though the character were wielding a one-handed weapon and a light weapon.

The character can also choose to use a double weapon two-handed, attacking with only one end of it. A creature wielding a double weapon in one hand can't use it as a double weapon—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round.

No "ifs" or "mays". Simply "a creature wielding a double weapon in one hand"... To me that makes it read as a viable option straight out of the box. The only caveat is "only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round".

Just because it is a double weapon doesn't take it off the two-handed weapon list. Sounds like a caveat to handle odd cases, so they don't need to specify it every time it comes up elsewhere. (like quarterstaff master).

Times this could easily come up:
- Quarterstaff master
- Abilities that let you wield a two-handed weapon in one hand
- Small weapons wielded by medium creatures

No need to specify for each individually, just specify once and done.


Krodjin wrote:
No "ifs" or "mays". Simply "a creature wielding a double weapon in one hand"... To me that makes it read as a viable option straight out of the box. The only caveat is "only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round".

It is a viable option... provided you can wield the weapon in one hand. Where in the rules does it say you can wield a 2-h weapon in one hand? There are specialized cases such as wielding an undersized weapon and certain class features and feats, but that line under Double Weapons doesn't make it an option. The 'if' is implied and understood by rudimentary knowledge of formal logic. I'll give you a crash course:

We have a statement which allows us to establish the following logical premises:

Statements:
A: A creature wields a double weapon in one hand.
B: A creature can use the double property of the weapon.
Conditional Statement: A=>~B; If a creature wields a double weapon in one hand, then (negate) a creature can use the double property of the weapon.

Can you wield a 2-h weapon in one hand? If so, you refer to this rule which states that, despite wielding it in one hand, you can't use it as a double weapon. You can't reverse-engineer wielding it in one hand based on your inability to use it as a double weapon. It'd be just the same as claiming the following:

A creature wielding a 2-h weapon as a 1-h weapon doesn't get 1.5x Str bonus to damage - they only get 1x Str bonus to damage. Therefore, if I only take 1x Str bonus to damage, I can wield any 2-h weapon in one hand.


Where are you getting the double weapon in one hand quote from?

CRB wrote:

"You can choose to wield one end of

a double weapon two-handed, but it cannot be used as a
double weapon when wielded in this way—only one end of
the weapon can be used in any given round."

The PRD has the same wording.


Ah it's in the PRD:UE note that in the PDF version of the UE it says

Quote:

Double: You can use a double weapon to fight as if

fighting with two weapons, but if you do, you incur all the
normal attack penalties associated with fighting with two
weapons, just as if you were using a one-handed weapon
and a light weapon. You can choose to wield one end of
a double weapon two-handed, but it cannot be used as a
double weapon when wielded in this way—only one end of
the weapon can be used in any given round.

So I think the bit you are quoting is an error from 3.5 that has crept in to the web version.

c.f. D20SRD


It's right in the PRD under CRB/Equipment:

CRB/Equipment wrote:

Double Weapons: Dire flails, dwarven urgroshes, gnome hooked hammers, orc double axes, quarterstaves, and two-bladed swords are double weapons. A character can fight with both ends of a double weapon as if fighting with two weapons, but he incurs all the normal attack penalties associated with two-weapon combat, just as though the character were wielding a one-handed weapon and a light weapon.

The character can also choose to use a double weapon two-handed, attacking with only one end of it. A creature wielding a double weapon in one hand can't use it as a double weapon—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round.

The blued statement indicates a character can also choose to use a double weapon two-handed, attacking with only one end of it. The bolded statement goes on to state a creature wielding a double weapon in one hand can't use it as a double weapon. It doesn't say, "you can wield a double weapon one-handed...", it says a creature wielding a double weapon one-handed is subject to the following restriction. But if some other rules element allows you to wield the weapon one-handed, either because it is, outright, a one-handed double weapon (the Taiaha being the only current example), or a feat or class ability allows you to wield 2-h weapons in one hand (ie. Jotungrip, Quarterstaff Master, etc), you wield an undersized weapon (a Medium creature wielding a Small double weapon as a 1-h), or any other special reason, then the bolded portion applies. You must bring your own permission to do this, though.


Ah! point taken I'm reading the bit under "Special" as in "Special: Some weapons have special features in addition to those noted in their descriptions."

The description in there doesn't include any mention of one-handed use but is as I stated above. I still think it's a leftover from 3.5 errata. But hey ho!

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