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Overview: A minor houserule: remove four of the mandatory magic items, give those bonuses to all characters passively, adjust WBL as needed. Still perfectly balanced for gameplay, assuming your table doesn't see Mage's Disjunction cast on a regular basis.
Background: I really hate the idea of "mandatory" magic items that give nothing but more +1's, with encounters and CR's basically assuming characters have this gear. With that in mind, I'm proposing a fairly minor houserule. I've heard variations on this before, but I can't find any place on the forums where anyone actually spelled out how it would work, so here's my version, where I deal with four of these magic items: Amulet of Natural Armor, Ring of Deflection, Headband/Belt of Stat Bonuses, and the so-good-it's-required Cloak of Resistance.
(Mind you, I consider Boots of Levitation "mandatory" on most characters I play, but I find yet another +1 to be far more boring than "Gravity? What's that?" Getting a +1 from a class feature is one thing, but I'd like my magic items, enchanted with power, to be something a little more interesting.)
Drawback:
All characters have 1/2 the expected WBL. In other words, however much wealth and treasure they'd normally get, they now get half.
If the previous sentence didn't cause you to run screaming from the forums: Still here? Good. Let's get to the bonuses. All characters gain the following five extra features over the course of their 20-level careers. These are in addition to any class or race features they would normally gain at those levels.
Heroic Resistance (Ex): At 3rd level, the character gains a +1 Resistance bonus on all saving throws. This increases by +1 every three levels thereafter, capping out at +5 at 15th level.
Heroic Deflection (Ex): At 5rd level, the character gains a +1 Deflection bonus to their AC. This increases by +1 every three levels thereafter, capping out at +5 at 17th level.
Heroic Armor (Ex): At 7rd level, the character gains a +1 Enhancement bonus to their Natural Armor bonus to their AC (Just like an Amulet of Natural Armor, this can change a +0 Natural Armor bonus into a +1). This increases by +1 every three levels thereafter, capping out at +5 at 19th level.
Heroic Attributes (Ex): All characters gain an Enhancement bonus to one or more ability scores of their choice, as laid out in the table below.
Almost Perfect (Ex): At 18th level, one ability score of the character's choice gains a +1 Inherent bonus. At 20th level, that bonus increases by 4, to a total of a +5 Inherent bonus.
To help make things clearer, I've outlined the 20-level progression below.
Abbreviations: Res, Def, and Nat refer to Resistance, Deflection, and Enhancement bonus to Natural Armor, respectively. Inh refers to Inherent bonus. Enh refers to Enhancement bonus to Attribute. All numbers given are the TOTAL bonus at that level, not the increase at that level. So at level 14, a character has a +4 Enhancement bonus to one stat, and a +2 Enhancement bonus to a different stat.
Bonuses Gained By Level:
1: None
2: None
3: +1 Res
4: None
5: +1 Def
6: +2 Res
7: +1 Nat
8: +2 Def
9: +3 Res, Enh: +2
10: +2 Nat
11: +3 Def
12: +4 Res
13: +3 Nat, Enh: +4
14: +4 Def, Enh: +4/+2
15: +5 Res, Enh: +6/+2
16: +4 Nat, Enh: +6/+4/+2
17: +5 Def, Enh: +6/+6/+2
18: Enh: +6/+6/+6, Inh: +1
19: +5 Nat, Enh: +6/+6/+6/+6
20: Inh: +5
Game Balance: The above bonuses, when duplicated by magic items, work out to just a hair over 1/2 of a 20th-level player's expected WBL. The cost breakdown:
+5 Enhancement bonus to natural armor bonus to AC (50k)
+5 Deflection bonus to AC (50k)
+5 Resistance bonus to all saving throws (25k)
+6 Enhancement bonus to four different ability scores (180k)
+5 Inherent bonus to one ability score (137.5k)
Total: 442.5k
20th-level WBL: 880k
Yes, these bonuses are slotless and Extraordinary, but I feel this is still balanced by two things: 1) The bonuses are fixed, so less player choice is allowed about what bonuses to get when, and 2) These bonuses are all but mandatory anyway, so getting one of these items lost or dispelled doesn't feel like a temporary setback/annoyance so much as exposing a glaring weakness.
Conclusion:I haven't actually playtested this in a campaign, but since the overall WBL works out to exactly the same as regular Pathfinder, I don't see how it could break anything too badly. I think it could free up a lot of slots for more eye-catching magic items, as well as stop the table from screeching to a halt every time someone casts Greater Dispel Magic (as everyone tries to figure out which magic items were hit), and preventing the classic newbie player casualty, Death By "What's a Resistance bonus?"
Feedback: So, what do you think? Is this balanced? Is this a great idea, or is it terrible? How do you think I can improve it?
P.S. Just have to add: This is the first time I've posted on the Paizo forums in a long, long time.
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I am playtesting the following as a way to bring more unusual magic items into use (for example, who wears a cloak of the bat when you have to have a cloak of resistance?)
Please note Training Bonuses to not stack with Enhancement Bonuses.
DEFENSE
Defensive Training: The character receives a +1 training bonus to the effective armor bonus of any armor or
shield worn.
Improved Defensive Training: The character receives a +2 training bonus to the effective armor bonus of any
armor or shield worn. A character must be at least 6th level and have the Defensive Training
distinction before selecting this distinction.
Greater Defensive Training: The character receives a +3 training bonus to the effective armor bonus of any
armor or shield worn. A character must be at least 9th level and have the Improved Defensive
Training distinction before selecting this distinction.
Penultimate Defensive Training: The character receives a +4 training bonus to the effective armor bonus of
any armor or shield worn.. A character must be at least 12th level and have the Greater Defensive
Training distinction before selecting this distinction.
Perfect Defensive Training: The character receives a +5 training bonus to the effective armor bonus of any
armor or shield worn. A character must be at least 15th level and have the Penultimate Defensive
Training distinction before selecting this distinction.
OFFENSE
Offensive Training: The character receives a +1 training bonus to attacks and damage with a single type of
weapon.
Improved Offensive Training: The character receives a +2 training bonus to attacks and damage with a
single type of weapon. A character must be at least 6th level and have the
Offensive Training distinction before selecting this distinction.
Greater Offensive Training: The character receives a +3 training bonus to attacks and damage with a single
type of weapon. A character must be at least 9th level and have the Offensive
Training distinction before selecting this distinction.
Penultimate Offensive Training: The character receives a +4 training bonus to attacks and damage with a
single type of weapon. A character must be at least 12th level and have the
Greater Offensive Training distinction before selecting this distinction.
Perfect Offensive Training: The character receives a +5 training bonus to attacks and damage with a single
type of weapon. A character must be at least 15th level and have the Penultimate
Offensive Training distinction before selecting this distinction.
SAVES
Lucky: The character receives a +1 resistance bonus to their Fortitude, Reflex, and Willpower saves.
Blessed: The character receives a +3 resistance bonus to their Fortitude, Reflex, and Willpower saves.
A character must be at least 7th level and have the Lucky distinction before selecting this distinction.
Exalted: The character receives a +5 resistance bonus to their Fortitude, Reflex, and Willpower saves.
A character must be at least 13th level and have the Lucky distinction before selecting this distinction.
ARMOR CLASS
Hardened: The character's natural armor bonus improves by +1.
A character must be at least 6th level before selecting this distinction.
Grizzled: The character's natural armor bonus improves by +3. A character must be at least 10th level
and have the Hardened distinction before selecting this distinction.
Iron Skinned: The character's natural armor bonus improves by +5. A character must be at least 14th level
and have the Grizzled distinction before selecting this distinction.
STRENGTH
Robust: The character receives a +2 training bonus to strength.
A character must be at least 5th level before selecting this distinction.
Mighty: +4 Training bonus to strength. A character must be at least 10th level and
have the Robust distinction before selecting this distinction.
Herculean: +6 Training bonus to strength. A character must be at least 15th level and
have the Mighty distinction before selecting this distinction.
DEXTERITY
Deft: The character receives a +2 training bonus to dexterity.
A character must be at least 5th level before selecting this distinction.
Nimble: +4 Training bonus to dexterity. A character must be at least 10th level and
have the Deft distinction before selecting this distinction.
Fleet: +6 Training bonus to dexterity. A character must be at least 15th level and
have the Fleet distinction before selecting this distinction.
CONSTITUTION
Hale: The character receives a +2 training bonus to constitution.
A character must be at least 5th level before selecting this distinction.
Hearty: +4 Training bonus to constitution. A character must be at least 10th level and
have the Hale distinction before selecting this distinction.
Vigor: +6 Training bonus to constitution. A character must be at least 15th level and
have the Hearty distinction before selecting this distinction.
INTELLIGENCE
Smart: The character receives a +2 training bonus to intelligence.
A character must be at least 5th level before selecting this distinction.
Astute: +4 Training bonus to intelligence. A character must be at least 10th level and
have the Smart distinction before selecting this distinction.
Brilliant: +6 Training bonus to intelligence. A character must be at least 15th level and
have the Astute distinction before selecting this distinction.
WISDOM
Shrewd: The character receives a +2 training bonus to wisdom.
A character must be at least 5th level before selecting this distinction.
Prudent: +4 Training bonus to wisdom. A character must be at least 10th level and
have the Shrewd distinction before selecting this distinction.
Wise: +6 Training bonus to wisdom. A character must be at least 15th level and
have the Prudent distinction before selecting this distinction.
CHARISMA
Charismatic: The character receives a +2 training bonus to charisma.
A character must be at least 5th level before selecting this distinction.
Majestic: +4 Training bonus to charisma. A character must be at least 10th level and
have the Charismatic distinction before selecting this distinction.
August: +6 Training bonus to charisma. A character must be at least 15th level and
have the Majestic distinction before selecting this distinction.
CASTER
Magical Training: The character receives a +1 training bonus to attacks and caster level checks when casting
a spell. In addition any spell that does hitpoint damage gains a +1 training bonus to the
first damage die rolled.
Improved Magical Training: The character receives a +2 training bonus to attacks and caster level checks
when casting a spell. In addition any spell that does hitpoint damage gains a +2
training bonus to the first damage die rolled. A character must be at least 6th level
and have the Magical Training distinction before selecting this distinction.
Greater Magical Training: The character receives a +3 training bonus to attacks and caster level checks when
casting a spell. In addition any spell that does hitpoint damage gains a +3 training
bonus to the first damage die rolled. A character must be at least 9th level and have
the Magical Training distinction before selecting this distinction.
Penultimate Magical Training: The character receives a +4 training bonus to attacks and caster level checks
when casting a spell. In addition any spell that does hitpoint damage gains a +4
training bonus to the first damage die rolled. A character must be at least 12th level
and have the Greater Magical Training distinction before selecting this distinction.
Perfect Magical Training: The character receives a +5 training bonus to attacks and caster level checks when
casting a spell. In addition any spell that does hitpoint damage gains a +5 training
bonus to the first damage die rolled. A character must be at least 15th level and have
the Penultimate Magical Training distinction before selecting this distinction.
PC Level ~ Wealth
2 – 1,000
3 – 3,000
4 – 6,000
5 – 10,500
6 – 16,000
7 – 23,500
8 – 33,000
9 – 46,000
10 – 62,000
11 – 82,000
12 – 108,000
13 – 140,000
14 – 185,000
15 – 240,000
16 – 315,000
17 – 410,000
18 – 530,000
19 – 685,000
20 – 880,000
(as you described)
PC Level ~ Wealth ~ Gear equivalent in wealth
2 – 500 – 0
3 – 1,500 – 1,000 (cloak of resistance +1)
4 – 3,000 – 1,000 (cloak of resistance +1)
5 – 5,250 – 3,000 (cloak of resistance +1, ring of protection +1)
6 – 8,000 – 6,000 (cloak of resistance +2, ring of protection +1)
7 – 11,750 – 8,000 (cloak of resistance +2, ring of protection +1, amulet of natural armor +1)
8 – 16,500 – 14,000 (cloak of resistance +2, ring of protection +2, amulet of natural armor +1)
9 – 23,000 – 23,000 (cloak of resistance +3, ring of protection +2, amulet of natural armor +1, belt/headband +2)
10 – 31,000 – 29,000 (cloak of resistance +3, ring of protection +2, amulet of natural armor +2, belt/headband +2)
11 – 41,000 – 39,000 (cloak of resistance +3, ring of protection +3, amulet of natural armor +2, belt/headband +2)
12 – 54,000 – 46,000 (cloak of resistance +4, ring of protection +3, amulet of natural armor +2, belt/headband +2)
13 – 70,000 – 68,000 (cloak of resistance +4, ring of protection +3, amulet of natural armor +3, belt/headband +4)
14 – 92,500 – 86,000 (cloak of resistance +4, ring of protection +4, amulet of natural armor +3, belt/headband +4, belt/headband +2)
15 – 120,000 – 115,000 (cloak of resistance +5, ring of protection +4, amulet of natural armor +3, belt/headband +6, belt/headband +2)
16 – 157,500 – 145,000 (cloak of resistance +5, ring of protection +4, amulet of natural armor +4, belt/headband +6, belt/headband +4, belt/headband +2)
17 – 205,000 – 201,000 (cloak of resistance +5, ring of protection +5, amulet of natural armor +4, belt/headband +6, belt/headband +6, belt/headband +2)
18 – 265,000 – 278,500 (cloak of resistance +5, ring of protection +5, amulet of natural armor +4, belt/headband +6, belt/headband +6, belt/headband +6, Tome/manuel +1)
19 – 342,500 – 332,500 (cloak of resistance +5, ring of protection +5, amulet of natural armor +5, belt/headband +6, belt/headband +6, belt/headband +6, belt/headband +6, Tome/manuel +1)
20 – 440,000 – 442,500 (cloak of resistance +5, ring of protection +5, amulet of natural armor +5, belt/headband +6, belt/headband +6, belt/headband +6, belt/headband +6, Tome/manuel +5)
2 – -500
3 – -500
4 – -2,000
5 – -2,250
6 – -2,000
7 – -3,750
8 – -2,500
9 – Exactly on track
10 – -2,000
11 – -2,000
12 – -8,000
13 – -2,000
14 – -6,500
15 – -5,000
16 – -12,500
17 – -4,000
18 – +13,500
19 – -10,000
20 – +2,500
Final Thoughts
I think you're on the right track here, but if your game doesn't run to 20th level (as most don't) it is not balanced yet. If you play a 1-8 campaign you're really going to be behind, especially at 7th level. You also have the issue of +1 weapons and +1 armor still being generic and not covered by this system. I like the idea of this, but it is incomplete as is.
Secondly, I feel like the belt/headband bonuses come far too late. IE crown of the Kobald King a 2nd level adventure gives a +2 enhancement bonus item, by your system I wouldn't get that until 9th level.
I hope this wasn't too harsh, I am only trying to be constructive.
@Arrius - Thanks! I haven't heard of the Numen system or Scaling Items... I'll have to look into those. As for the oddities with the Inherent bonus at the endgame levels, that was to keep the bonuses close to WBL.
@Mykull - Hm, I hadn't thought of that. Have the players pick their own bonuses, then have level-based prerequisites to solve people getting powerful magic-item effects too early. Your "all your weapons/armor are now magic" is something I really want to try; I tried putting something like that into my system, but I couldn't figure out how to "price" it by reducing the WBL. Have you considered making your own thread for your idea? Otherwise, some of the comments may get jumbled together here.
@DMKumoGekkou - Hey, someone else ran the numbers, and better than I did! I did a level-by-level WBL-comparison the way you did, but with an emphasis on the Nat/Def/Res bonuses scaling at a linear, easy-to-track rate. My earlier version of this houserule put things much closer to the WBL, but then players have to refer to that 20-level table for everything, since nothing was gained at a flat "+1/X level" rate. Any time I had a choice to go under WBL or over, I always went under, for two reasons:
1) To make the houserule more palatable to most GM's, and avoid the whole "New Houserule: Everyone is 10x more awesome" power creep.
2) Given that these bonuses cannot be dispelled and do not take up any magic item slots, I figured a relatively small "cost" on the bonuses wouldn't be inappropriate.
Finally: This wasn't harsh at all! Constructive criticism like this is exactly what I'm looking for. I know the idea needs tweaking and refining (or maybe even a total overhaul), but I can't figure out how on my own.
I have used a system similar to this through several APs, and it works great.
So many people complain about magic item shops, the christmas tree effect, etc - this is your fix for that.
As far as WBL - personally, I dont use it. At all. Ever.
None of my players complain about having too few items for their level. Why? Because they are so wrapped up in the story, that it dosen't matter.
@Firstbourne - What?! Just ignore the WBL! But... but... that's not following the INSTRUCTIONS!
Kidding aside, I have considered having the bonuses stray farther from the WBL. I'll have to think about it; in the meantime, I wanted this first pass to be close to WBL, to make sure that my bonuses were at least mostly balanced. I'll definitely keep a WBL-balanced version for campaigns that want to stay closer to the core rules, but I may make a second version that plays much faster and looser with the WBL, in exchange for smoother progression by level.
Edit: Fixed a typo.
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I've been working on a similar ruleset, but I did ability scores a bit differently. First off, I removed all permanent increases available to all classes via sufficient wealth (including belts/headbands, wish spells, tomes, and level-up bonuses). Instead, I grant a +2 to any one ability score of your choice per level, stacking, starting at level 2. Maximum for one score is +2. Then it's +4 at lvl 5, +6 at lvl 8, and finishes off at +8 at lvl 10. This doesn't count as an enhancement bonus, but no permanent enhancement bonuses exist (so you can use Bull's Strength, but there are no belts of giant strength).
I also pulled weapons/armor/shield base enhancment bonuses out and said that equivalents would be on items, flat bonuses would be from the user. Having a bonus-equivalent bypasses DR /magic, but otherwise you need the magic weapon spell, a class feature, etc to bypass special DR. However, greater magic weapon makes your entire passive weapon enhancement bonus bypass DR as normal in addition to increasing it by +1 (max +5). Class features that boost enhancement do the same, but max out at +6 instead. All of this has the consequence of making bypassable DR more valuable against randoms, but at he same time less valuable against prepared adventurers since you can carry around weapons of different materials that act at full effectiveness. The only tough one is Holy(/etc), and that example happens to be fine by me.
Once weapon, armor, shield, natural armor, deflection, resistance, and ability scores are out of the way, you can drop WBL to like 20% (min 1k @ lvls 2+), or even stop bothering to track it entirely, and things should work out well enough. People who depend on bonus-equivalents for their build to work are given some kind of feat option instead. Or taken out back and shot, depending on how ridiculous the requirement was.
dot for later
So, at the risk of derailing this thread (this is excellent work Arbalester), the issue of the too-good-not-to-have (AC, Shield, hit, resistance, saves, etc.) items comes up so often that I'm surprised that Paizo hasn't tackled the issue with a set of alternate rules.
Or have they, and I'm just not aware of them?
Start treating CR, APL, and WBL as more of guidelines, and you won't have this issue anymore. I see this happen when people get way too deep into the math of the game, instead of trying to understand encounters on more of an intuitive level.
I have used a system similar to this through several APs, and it works great.
So many people complain about magic item shops, the christmas tree effect, etc - this is your fix for that.
As far as WBL - personally, I dont use it. At all. Ever.
None of my players complain about having too few items for their level. Why? Because they are so wrapped up in the story, that it dosen't matter.
As someone who's usually pretty hardline on sticking to WBL, I have to agree with this: WBL wouldn't matter as much if players weren't forced to get specific items just to stay on equal footing with relevant encounters. You can be much more loose with it if that wealth is being used to do new things rather than just to keep doing the thing you were doing last session.
So, at the risk of derailing this thread (this is excellent work Arbalester), the issue of the too-good-not-to-have (AC, Shield, hit, resistance, saves, etc.) items comes up so often that I'm surprised that Paizo hasn't tackled the issue with a set of alternate rules.
Or have they, and I'm just not aware of them?
From what I've heard this is one of the issues that'll be tackled in the Unchained book.
From what I've heard this is one of the issues that'll be tackled in the Unchained book.
It looks like you may be right:
"• Magic items that power up with you throughout your career—and ways to maintain variety while still letting players choose the “best” magic items."
This actually should be used as a tool of more class balance.
Magical weapon bonuses should probably be included in that table.
Let's take a melee class: MAD, all the way. While every class needs Con, Melees also need Str and Dex, and probably Wis. Contrast with a caster, who only needs one mental stat.
A wizard doesn't need a +5 staff and probably will never get one. A cleric probably wants a good weapon, however, but they can always cast GMW and fake it.
Look at the cost of the various bonuses. Nat Armor, Armor and REsistance bonuses are cheap. Deflection, magical weapons and stats are not. Furthermore, there's a +50% surcharge for every additional stat req of the same type (physical/mental), further stacking the deck against martials.
I believe stat boosting should be another class balance thing. Picture the monk, the master of striving to attain self-perfection. Exactly why aren't his ability scores improving across the board as he gains levels?
Why isn't the fighter, the guy who trains trains trains, getting stat improvement? The rogue, who knows skills is everything, improving his mental and physical abilities faster then a wizard who just mumbles and waves his fingers to solve everything?
Every video game ever gives bonuses to martial classes to reflect what they do.
IMC, a monk gets 3 bonus stat points when he hits 4th; one each to his lowest mental and physical stat, and one to his lowest stat. It doesn't have a huge effect on his maximum potential, but his average rises nicely over time, and his dump stats come rapidly back up to viable.
Likewise, fighters and rogues get an additional point to their lowest mental and physical stats every 4th level, so even the lesser stats see more improvement over time. The barb gets a bonus to his lowest physical stat, the ranger and paladin to their lowest stat.
Full casters get nothing more then usual...they can spellcast to cover their weaknesses.
====================
To the OP: I like what you are doing with inherent bonuses and the like, but you have to remember that a spellcaster can get Wish for much, much cheaper then the cost of a magic book. They don't need the inherent boost. As soon as they can cast 5 9th level spells, they are golden.
Better yet, they can summon up a noble djinn or efreet and get lots of inherent bonuses as early as, what, 11th level? (Might be 13th).
Furthermore, MAD vs SAD means they really only want to raise two stats (Casting + con) and the rest is just gravy. A monk or paladin wants 4 stats, martials 3, AT LEAST.
Non-caster classes should thus get bonuses that casters don't, either reflecting their superior training, or their ability to just plain use magic items better (which is exactly like real life...shooters use guns better then gunsmiths!).
So, you'd have to make class specific rules on this.
Maybe martials all get COn enhancement as an extra at the appropriate levels.
Maybe martials get to apply their inherent bonuses to 2 ability scores instead of 1. If they aren't spellcasters or using magic, maybe they get 3!
==Aelryinth
Why isn't the fighter, the guy who trains trains trains, getting stat improvement? The rogue, who knows skills is everything, improving his mental and physical abilities faster then a wizard who just mumbles and waves his fingers to solve everything?
You lost me with this line. All adventurers would vie to increase themselves across the board. A wizard is (stereotypically speaking) constantly studying and trying to learn new things. An adventuring wizard wouldn't survive without increasing his or her ability to respond to danger quickly and ability to deal with physical punishment.
I see your point about MAD vs. SAD disparity, but this argument about the non-crunch part of different characters doesn't really support it.
Yes, it does.
The mage spends his time researching spells, the intellect needed to master them, casting them, learning his mastery of them.
The fighter and the rogue spend their time doing physical and mental drills, exercises, stretching, training, educating under masters, etc etc etc.
It's like you're trying to argue a college professor and master physicist up to his elbows in unintelligible theorems, profound math and competitive discourse with his peers is going to be the equal of a SEAL or world-class intelligence agent who do nothing but train train train. He's going to the absolute master in his own incomprehensibly complex field, but beyond that?
Not equal at all. Martials train as matter of course in all facets of combat. It should be a class thing. If you're MAD, then you train multiple Stats, not just one.
What you're describing isn't training all the time. It's a feat.
==Aelryinth
Arrius, then they should also get a good caster level and spellcasting. Because 2 hp/level over a mage is 1 feat and 1 spell from par, and full BAB is 1 spell.
i.e. no, it's a very different item.
==Aelryinth
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I have been noodling a similar system, but I have a plan to add this.
Remove all permanent enhancement bonuses from weapons(IE a flaming sword would be a +0 flaming sword).
Everyone gets a +1 enhancement bonus to weapon hit and damage for every 3 points of BAB. This caps out at +5/+5 at level 15.
I have been noodling a similar system, but I have a plan to add this.
Remove all permanent enhancement bonuses from weapons(IE a flaming sword would be a +0 flaming sword).
Everyone gets a +1 enhancement bonus to weapon hit and damage for every 3 points of BAB. This caps out at +5/+5 at level 15.
I like the idea of this. I'm going to have to play with the math and see how I feel about this for 3/4 bab classes. Do you have any playtest data for this?
I have been working on something similar with a skill based crafting component to compliment it I'll probably post that pretty soon to ask for forum input.
I have played with this sort of thing a lot and I think the important things is balancing all characters vs each other. If you end up with characters being more powerful than they were by RAW that is fine just throw in some more high level enemies than you normally would. Personally one of the points of doing this in my opinion is both to simplify the gear and to increase PC power level slightly because low level monsters are boring and there are plenty of high level monsters that I have not had the opportunity to sick on the PCs yet.But I always home brew adventures, you might need to increase your effective party level if you are running an adventure path.
I like the idea of this. I'm going to have to play with the math and see how I feel about this for 3/4 bab classes. Do you have any playtest data for this?I have been noodling a similar system, but I have a plan to add this.
Remove all permanent enhancement bonuses from weapons(IE a flaming sword would be a +0 flaming sword).
Everyone gets a +1 enhancement bonus to weapon hit and damage for every 3 points of BAB. This caps out at +5/+5 at level 15.
I don't really have any play test data, but I have crunched some of the numbers. For the full BAB classes, it puts them firmly on top, and it adds another trade off for casters, which lessens the caster/martial disparity. For the 3/4 BAB classes, almost all of them have spells that they can use to give themselves bonuses. Clerics have divine power/greater magic weapon. Druids have magic fang, and so forth. If anything, this change would let you see more spells like Shillelagh, because now having a +1 enhancement bonus on your weapon is a good thing.
Also, I don't consider these things to be a PC only thing. I would apply these bonuses to any NPC that has PC wealth level(+1 CR).
I like the idea of this. I'm going to have to play with the math and see how I feel about this for 3/4 bab classes. Do you have any playtest data for this?I have been noodling a similar system, but I have a plan to add this.
Remove all permanent enhancement bonuses from weapons(IE a flaming sword would be a +0 flaming sword).
Everyone gets a +1 enhancement bonus to weapon hit and damage for every 3 points of BAB. This caps out at +5/+5 at level 15.I don't really have any play test data, but I have crunched some of the numbers. For the full BAB classes, it puts them firmly on top, and it adds another trade off for casters, which lessens the caster/martial disparity. For the 3/4 BAB classes, almost all of them have spells that they can use to give themselves bonuses. Clerics have divine power/greater magic weapon. Druids have magic fang, and so forth. If anything, this change would let you see more spells like Shillelagh, because now having a +1 enhancement bonus on your weapon is a good thing.
Also, I don't consider these things to be a PC only thing. I would apply these bonuses to any NPC that has PC wealth level(+1 CR).
My worry is classses such as the monk, rogue, etc that are 3/4 and do not have spell casting abilities. This pushes some of the less powerful classes even further back. I don't see it harming full casters much as many full casters will never use a weapon anyways.
My worry is classses such as the monk, rogue, etc that are 3/4 and do not have spell casting abilities. This pushes some of the less powerful classes even further back. I don't see it harming full casters much as many full casters will never use a weapon anyways.I like the idea of this. I'm going to have to play with the math and see how I feel about this for 3/4 bab classes. Do you have any playtest data for this?I have been noodling a similar system, but I have a plan to add this.
Remove all permanent enhancement bonuses from weapons(IE a flaming sword would be a +0 flaming sword).
Everyone gets a +1 enhancement bonus to weapon hit and damage for every 3 points of BAB. This caps out at +5/+5 at level 15.I don't really have any play test data, but I have crunched some of the numbers. For the full BAB classes, it puts them firmly on top, and it adds another trade off for casters, which lessens the caster/martial disparity. For the 3/4 BAB classes, almost all of them have spells that they can use to give themselves bonuses. Clerics have divine power/greater magic weapon. Druids have magic fang, and so forth. If anything, this change would let you see more spells like Shillelagh, because now having a +1 enhancement bonus on your weapon is a good thing.
Also, I don't consider these things to be a PC only thing. I would apply these bonuses to any NPC that has PC wealth level(+1 CR).
The rules as a whole also free up the monk to focus on investment in monk specific items(monk's belt instead of a belt of strength for example).
Rogues are almost always pushed into going down the dual wield path, which means that they have to buy two magic weapons, and thus are about a +1 behind a fighter on their weapons anyways. This system as a whole is a huge boon to dual wield.
For reference
Level Full 3/4 1/2
1 +0 +0 +0
2 +0 +0 +0
3 +1 +0 +0
4 +1 +1 +0
5 +1 +1 +0
6 +2 +1 +1
7 +2 +1 +1
8 +2 +1 +1
9 +3 +2 +1
10 +3 +2 +1
11 +3 +2 +1
12 +4 +2 +2
13 +4 +3 +2
14 +4 +3 +2
15 +5 +3 +2
Worst case scenario, if I really feel that a specific class is struggling, I can make a class only magic item for them(Like some gloves that boost sneak attack)
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Bardarok's post got me thinking: I see that our efforts indicate a deeper problem.
Why should characters require enhancement/deflection/natural armor/etc. bonuses in the first place?
It's a result of the desire to constantly approve our characters (aka "levelling").
"You've reached arbitrary xp #2! Have some arbitrary bonuses! I will now discretely add similar arbitrary bonuses to all of your antagonists!"
For dual wielding, just make a +1 Enhancement that duplicates the primary weapon onto your secondary weapon for TWF. For the price of a +2 weapon, you can now have matching weapons, and only invest further into one of them.
==Aelryinth
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Bardarok's post got me thinking: I see that our efforts indicate a deeper problem.
Why should characters require enhancement/deflection/natural armor/etc. bonuses in the first place?
It's a result of the desire to constantly approve our characters (aka "levelling").
"You've reached arbitrary xp #2! Have some arbitrary bonuses! I will now discretely add similar arbitrary bonuses to all of your antagonists!"
The goal is simple in my mind:
To be able to do more cool stuff and fight enemies who can also do cool stuff because cool stuff is fun... and cool ... and stuff.
To that end all +X bonuses are boring because they are simply matched by the enemy. However leveling up to gain new abilities: sneak attack, cleave, blinding critical, spells, high jump, etc. These things represent interesting actions that a PC can take, thus these are the goal of leveling up.
The +X bonuses are only necessary because all the published monsters have them and while it is a bit difficult to upgrade characters it is harder to change all the monsters because in a normal game there are many more monsters (and a wider variety of monsters) than there are characters.
Arrius, then they should also get a good caster level and spellcasting. Because 2 hp/level over a mage is 1 feat and 1 spell from par, and full BAB is 1 spell.If that is what you feel is right, feel free to house-rule it. Don't expect this to close the disparity, however, or for people to clamor to your interpretation.
Pathfinder as of yet adheres to no strict interpretation of balance: You'd find feats that are better than class features, and traits better than feats, let alone classes being better than each other. Andostre is not wrong.
With rules like this, you can pretty much claim what you want. When it comes to this thread, I would find myself (and others will be as well) hard-pressed to give martial characters (and only them) attribute bonuses.
It's just not fair. And if a game isn't fair, the players won't enjoy it.
I don't consider melees getting more stats any more unfair then the fact casters get a spellcaster level and spells, and BAB, and martials don't get either of the first two.
You want to cast, you don't train. It's as simple as that.
I think you are focusing on the idea of super-plowing points to get mega high stats. No, that's not what happens. The points are automatically put into the LOWEST relevant ability scores. As a result, you get much more well-rounded characters, without upside super ability score silliness.
I think you wouldn't see near as much opposition to additional stat raises for melees in PF as you might think, considering everything that casters get. A high level wizard with 5 9th level slots (or a pearl of power or two) can get +5 inherent to all his ability scores. With Blood Money, he can do it for free. Without it, he can do it for a fraction of the cost of the other characters.
That is certainly not fair, but it's his 'right' as a spellcaster. Well, the fighter and rogue have been training all their lives. It's just as much their 'right' to be more endowed in the area of general stats as it is for the caster to have his spells.
And these would all be house rules, so don't think that's a brush-off worth mentioning, aye?
==Aelryinth
Mythic Evil Lincoln had a great post on this a while back. I can't find it now.
This does not speak to your main point, but I must...
A high level wizard with 5 9th level slots (or a pearl of power or two) can get +5 inherent to all his ability scores. With Blood Money, he can do it for free.
Not unless he has a natural strength score of at least 250, as it costs 125,000 in material components to attain a +5 inherent bonus with wish.
Without it, he can do it for a fraction of the cost of the other characters.
Yes. 9/10 is a fraction, although I wouldn't call it a bargain.
So... would it be possible to replace all the increasing numbers with just one number? These numbers are completely off the top of my head without any though follow through, but what if we did something like:
All classes with a fast BAB progression have a static +5 BAB forever. Medium is +3; slow is +1.
Similar concept for saves and hit points. This would leave the focus on new feats and new abilities.
The multi-classing would have to be re-written, but essentially, the concept is playing E6 where everyone starts at level 6.
Thinking about it, I can already see lots of problems with the concept to be worked out, but it might be worth exploring. (And I bet it already has been. I can't imagine I'm the first to think of it.)
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The main reason that the scaling numbers are fun is because not all enemies or challenges scale. My group, for example, frequently encounters enemies of well below their CR. We just skip the encounter and say "we won" with no experience reward. This is not something you can do with a static-numbers system.
Also, the scaling numbers enable characters at level 1 to be as vulnerable as real-world heroes, whereas those at 11+ may be capable of surviving trauma so extreme it begins to stretch credulity (such as surviving a nuclear blast, or swiming through lava).
Another scaling factor is mundane challenges like crafting, climbing walls, or jumping. The existing system allows making 40ft or longer jumps, climbing the underside of an oil-slicked overhang, etc.
Not only does it enable the above outlandish deeds, it enables making some of them routine. Sure, lower level people could, in weird circumstances, do similar things. But higher level PF characters can do some of these things day in and day out and largely take it for granted.
I, personally, would much rather keep the scaling and make it something everyone gets for leveling than abandon the concept of scaling entirely. Though low-power games are fun, there are many other systems better suited to that purpose (e.g. Savage Worlds or World of Darkness).
I'm totally open to better ways to scale it, but the main draw of a direct replacement is that it means you don't have to rewrite any stat blocks :)
So... would it be possible to replace all the increasing numbers with just one number? These numbers are completely off the top of my head without any though follow through, but what if we did something like:
All classes with a fast BAB progression have a static +5 BAB forever. Medium is +3; slow is +1.
Similar concept for saves and hit points. This would leave the focus on new feats and new abilities.
The multi-classing would have to be re-written, but essentially, the concept is playing E6 where everyone starts at level 6.
Thinking about it, I can already see lots of problems with the concept to be worked out, but it might be worth exploring. (And I bet it already has been. I can't imagine I'm the first to think of it.)
That sounds pretty cool, as far as E6 goes. One of my small complaints about "standard" E6 is the normal progression from 1st to 6th, which takes no time at all, and then BAM...wall. It sort of cuts to the chase starting at 6th; basically, you make up a bad ass hero, with a bad ass build...and play them.
With regard to your proposal, I would make it +6, +4, +2 BAB. It mimics the normal E6 stops for Good and Medium, and "normalizes" the rather odd bit where Wizards end up only 1 behind Rogues. As well, it keeps the "capstone" of a 2nd attack for full BAB classes.
The main reason that the scaling numbers are fun is because not all enemies or challenges scale. My group, for example, frequently encounters enemies of well below their CR. We just skip the encounter and say "we won" with no experience reward. This is not something you can do with a static-numbers system.
Also, the scaling numbers enable characters at level 1 to be as vulnerable as real-world heroes, whereas those at 11+ may be capable of surviving trauma so extreme it begins to stretch credulity (such as surviving a nuclear blast, or swiming through lava).
Another scaling factor is mundane challenges like crafting, climbing walls, or jumping. The existing system allows making 40ft or longer jumps, climbing the underside of an oil-slicked overhang, etc.
Not only does it enable the above outlandish deeds, it enables making some of them routine. Sure, lower level people could, in weird circumstances, do similar things. But higher level PF characters can do some of these things day in and day out and largely take it for granted.
I, personally, would much rather keep the scaling and make it something everyone gets for leveling than abandon the concept of scaling entirely. Though low-power games are fun, there are many other systems better suited to that purpose (e.g. Savage Worlds or World of Darkness).
I'm totally open to better ways to scale it, but the main draw of a direct replacement is that it means you don't have to rewrite any stat blocks :)
Indeed. I love the idea of lower numbers with slower scaling, a la 5th Edition D&D...except I like PF better. But, the point of this thread is a way to replace items that will allow the continued use of published materials, as well as avoiding excessive amounts of WORK for the GM.
I have seen various charts with choice or static progression. I have even toyed with the idea of a straight up "level bonus" to several relevant numbers in the neighborhood of +1 per 4 levels. But spreading the bonuses over the level progression would be smoother and much more satisfying. I would probably reorder which bonuses come when, especially the attributes, but this is solid.
This does not speak to your main point, but I must...
A high level wizard with 5 9th level slots (or a pearl of power or two) can get +5 inherent to all his ability scores. With Blood Money, he can do it for free.Not unless he has a natural strength score of at least 250, as it costs 125,000 in material components to attain a +5 inherent bonus with wish.
Without it, he can do it for a fraction of the cost of the other characters.Yes. 9/10 is a fraction, although I wouldn't call it a bargain.
Rapidly and consecutively does not mean he can't do Quickened Restorations or Heals in between the spells, Path. Trust me, if they are cheesy enough to use Blood Money, they are cheesy enough to find a way to make it work.
And simply a Wish that goes "I wish for my strength to be permanently increased when I accumulate five of these Wishes towards that effect' completely takes care of the timing issue entirely. You don't get any benefit until you get +5...fair enough!==Aelryinth
Here's my suggestion, and it's super simple:
The following five items do not occupy their respective slots, but you may only have one item of each of the following categories equipped:
Ring of Protection +X
Amulet of Natural Armor +X
Cloak of Resistance +X
Belt of Physical Stats +X
Headband of Mental Stats +X
Here's the logic. The game assumes you're going to buy these items, and it's probably worked into the wealth by level. So don't tool around with wealth by level, and don't try to figure out exactly when a character should get the bonuses. Let characters buy/find belts, headbands, etc as you see fit. Don't make the mandatory items take up the slots so that you can still use muleback cords without losing your +5 to all saves. Make sure your players understand ahead of time that you're doing this to make their lives more interesting, and explain to them that if they try to do something stupid, like equip a +2 CON in the belt slot and a +2 STR belt without the slot requirement, you're not going to allow it.
It's a lot less rigid than the OP's proposed solution, and doesn't spend half of the character's wealth without their permission.
I like what the OP is getting at, but not the proposed method. It seems silly to say "Look, I'm getting rid of your mandatory items. Instead, you get them for free and all you have to do is pay for them with half your gold."
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The idea is to not be wearing the items and to reduce the burdeon on the story for providing enough items to reach a balance. Without these key items, the amount of wealth given to the players is a lot less important, giving the DM more freedom to just let the story go where it may. I can't speak for OP, but I know I wouldn't foist such rules on players unless they were okay with the trade-off themselves.
At least, that's the point in my mind. That and I hate trying to play even a half-serious character that looks like a fashion designer dropout.
Wow, looks like a lot has happened while I was gone! I haven't been idle; I just finished polishing up Version 2 of this houserule, and I'm excited to share it, but a few things first; there are a few points a few people have brought up that I should address.
One, as to the martial/caster class balance issue: I agree it exists; martial characters have less interesting mechanics and take more work to make more powerful than casters. However, my two counterpoints:
1) Reworking either set of classes is far beyond the scope of these houserules. I'm trying to keep this houserule as simple as possible; there are enough features creeping in as it is.
2) In my personal opinion, the unbalancing isn't bad enough to warrant any major overhauls. Yes, martials are less interesting mechanically, but that doesn't mean they're less FUN; you'll just spend less time on mechanics and more time on fluff text/characterization.
Also, as to the balance of this houserule itself:
Several people have mentioned ignoring or reworking the WBL table itself. I'm trying not to, for another two reasons:
1) I can be quite the Emmet at times, always trying to follow the instructions, so breaking away from the published tables is a bit nerve-wracking for me.
2) Compounding the first issue is that I'm trying to keep this balanced for published material. My goal is that someone using this houserule could run a published module or even full AP with next to no changes in overall encounter difficulty or stats. Yes, I agree that the +1 attack/+1 defense arms race is kinda silly, but that's the system we're working in. I don't have the effort or the expertise for a more serious overhaul, and it's far beyond what this houserule is trying to do.
EDIT: Wait, you can't edit posts older than a day or two?! Great; I was hoping to find some easy way to guide people to this post, instead of my old Version 1 post, without having to make a whole new thread. Should I just ditch this thread and make a new one, or should I trust people to be able to find this one, so I don't get feedback about stuff I already addressed?
Okay, now on to the fun stuff! I've spent the last two days refining and polishing this houserule, as well as slightly expanding its scope to include weapons, armor, and the normal ability score increases every 4 levels. Introducing... Version 2!
I've been thinking over what a few people on this thread have mentioned, and after working on it some more, I have now made Version 2 of this houserule. It includes what I did before, but modified and smoothed out a bit, as well as including weapon and armor enhancements in here. Here is the new houserule.
You Are Not Your Gear, Version 2
Drawbacks (Any campaign using this houserule has these drawbacks.)
-Characters only get 2/5ths of the original WBL. (If WBL isn't tracked, characters should get about half as much treasure as they do normally.)
-Characters do not gain the normal 1 attribute bonus every 4 levels. (Instead, it is folded into the Attribute bonus, as detailed below.)
-Spells that give enhancement bonuses to ability scores, weapons, or armor do not function. Wish cannot be used to grant an inherent bonus to an ability score. (These spells are either removed from the game completely, or given alternate functions; see below for some suggestions.)
-Magic items that give an enhancement bonuses or inherent bonuses to ability scores, weapons, or armor do not function. (As with spells, these items should either be removed or reworked.)
-For all magic weapons and armor, when determining the total cost to purchase it (and the cost against WBL), all costs from magical enchantments count as twice as much.
Clarifications (Not actual rule changes, but just to put several important rules here)
-Alter Self, Beast Shape, and the like give a Size bonus to ability scores, not an Enhancement bonus, so it still functions and stacks with the ability score increases below.
-In normal Pathfinder, monks (and brawlers) with the Unarmed Strike class feature may treat their unarmed strike as a manufactured weapon for purposes of Magic Weapon and Greater Magic Weapon. (See page 310 of the Core Rulebook for the descriptions of Magic Weapon and Greater Magic Weapon.) Why am I mentioning this here? Read the Modifications below.
-Technically, you may add enchantments to regular clothing as though it was armor with a bonus of +0, though it must be Masterwork first. Most people don't think of making Masterwork clothing, and it's going to be tough to find a tailor that good in most towns. Still, it's an option for those who want enchanted armor but have class features/spells that can't use armor.
Modifications (Minor rule changes to help this houserule.)
-Armor, shields, and weapons must merely be Masterwork to start putting special enchantments on them; they do not need to be made +1 first. As detailed above, these enchantments do cost twice as much as normal.
-Monks, Brawlers and any other character with the Unarmed Strike class feature (Not just the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, the actual class feature) gains the following benefit: When they have at least one weapon they are proficient with on their person, they may apply the magical enchantments on that weapon to all of their unarmed attacks. They do not have to wield the weapon or even have it in hand, but it must be on their person and not wielded by anyone else. Any enchantments on the weapon that are invalid to apply to their unarmed strike are ignored. (For example, the Keen enchantment can't be put on bludgeoning weapons, and unarmed strike is a bludgeoning weapon, so Keen is ignored.)
Right, with all of that red tape out of the way, on to the fun part...
Bonuses
All player characters gain the following bonuses at the assigned levels. These bonuses are in addition to any gained from race or class features, as normal. As normal, all of these bonuses round down unless otherwise specified.
Heroic Saves (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, bonus to all saving throws equal to 1/3 level, to a max of +5 at level 15.
Heroic Armor (Ex): Starting at 5th level, bonus to AC equal to level-3, to a maximum of +15 at level 19. This does stack with the armor bonus from armor, but not with Mage Armor.
Heroic Deflection (Ex): Starting at 6th level, bonus to Touch AC (but not regular or flat-footed AC) equal to 1/3 level, to a max of +5 at level 18. A character using a shield (But not the Shield spell) may apply this bonus to regular AC (and therefore flat-footed AC) as well.
Heroic Weapons (Ex): Starting at 5th level, all weapons (including unarmed strikes and natural weapons) are treated as +1. That means +1 on attack and damage rolls, counts as magic for DR, does not stack with the bonus from a Masterwork weapon. Goes up by 1/3 levels after that, to a max of +5 at level 17.
Intense Training (Ex): Starting at 4th level, the character's ability scores get bonuses as shown on the below table. (Note that the table shows the total ability score bonuses, not the bonuses per level.) This bonus is a permanent increase to the ability score, does not count as a temporary bonus, and cannot be dispelled. In addition, the increased ability score is used when meeting prerequisites for feats.
Almost Perfect (Ex): Starting at 16th level, +1 to an ability score of your choice every level; this stacks with Intense Training. (This works out to 5 +1's at level 20.) Like Intense Training, this is a permanent nonmagical increase that can even be used to meet feat prerequisites.
To help make things clearer, here is the 20-level progression for these bonuses. For the sake of brevity, bonuses will only be shown when they increase; any bonus not listed at a given level is whatever it was at the previous level. Also, when bonuses increase, the TOTAL bonus is shown, not the increase.
The terms used:
Saves: Saving throws.
AC: Armor Class.
Touch: Touch AC.
Weapons: Bonus to all attacks.
Abi: Ability scores. A () shows the +1 bonuses gained at high levels.
1: None
2: None
3: +1 Saves
4: Abi: +1
5: +1 AC, +1 Weapons
6: +2 AC, +1 Touch, +2 Saves, Abi: +2
7: +3 AC
8: +4 AC, +2 Weapons, Abi: +3/+1
9: +5 AC, +2 Touch, +3 Saves
10: +6 AC, Abi: +4/+2
11: +7 AC, +3 Weapons
12: +8 AC, +3 Touch, +4 Saves, Abi: +5/+3/+1
13: +9 AC
14: +10 AC, +4 Weapons, Abi: +6/+4/+2/+1
15: +11 AC, +4 Touch, +5 Saves, Abi: +6/+4/+3/+2
16: +12 AC, Abi: +6/+5/+4/+3 (+1)
17: +13 AC, +5 Weapons, Abi: +7/+6/+5/+4 (+1)
18: +14 AC, +5 Touch, Abi: +8/+7/+6/+5 (+1)
19: +15 AC, Abi: +8/+8/+7/+6 (+1)
20: Abi: +9/+8/+7/+6 (+1)
Overall Balance
-Although characters only get 2/5ths WBL, with the value from these bonuses, they may be as high as 20% over WBL for some levels, especially levels 12 and 17 or so. However, not all of these bonuses are useful to all characters, so their effective "value" may be lower than calculated. (I mean, come on. Blowing 25k for a bonus to your third-highest ability score? Splitting your leveling bonuses 3/2 instead of 5/0? Most SAD characters definitely have a lower WBL than indicated here.)
-In case anyone was wondering, here is the wealth a character should have left after getting the above bonuses, using WBL for their level.
Wealth Remaining (% of total WBL for that level)
3: 2k (67%)
4: 5k (83%)
5: 6.5k (62%)
6: 6k (38%)
7: 11.5k (49%)
8: 11k (33%)
9: 13k (28%)
10: 17k (27%)
11: 22k (27%)
12: 24.5k (23%)
13: 46.5k (33%)
14: 52.5k (28%)
15: 72.5k (30%)
16: 90.5k (29%)
17: 93.5k (23%)
18: 120.5k (23%)
19: 180k (26%)
20: 350k (40%)
-This does nerf Mage Armor and Shield a bit, though by the time the armor bonus ties with Mage Armor at character level 8, the major spellcasters are going to be on 4th level spells, which is about the time most 1st-level spells become much less useful. The Shield spell remains a great buff, though.
-Technically, this gives all characters infinite +5 weapons, but I don't think that unbalances the game; most martial characters don't usually have more than 2 halfway-decent weapons anyway. As for adding to all natural attacks... that may need playtesting; I feel uncomfortable giving effectively 5 or 6 magic weapons to some characters (Shapeshifting casters and Summoners, mostly). Still, I'll leave it in for now, but it may need tweaking later.
-The weapons bonus means all characters can bypass magic DR at level 5, cold iron/silver DR at level 11, adamantine DR at level 14, and all alignment DR at level 17. They still can't bypass hardness with a regular weapon. (See page 562 of the Core Rulebook for more on automatically bypassing DR.) This does cheapen several feats and class features; monks and brawlers now have redundant class features, but I figure the bonuses balance out. Again, needs playtesting to make sure it's polished.
-As a side effect, I think I wound up balancing the overall game a bit. SAD characters, being forced to split up some of their ability score bonuses, now can't just crank one stat through the roof as soon as they can, putting MAD characters on more even footing. Also, the free weapons and armor, as well as slotless bonuses, should help the gear-hungry martial characters quite a bit, so even at 2/5ths WBL, they can still afford better wondrous items (Cloak of Flying, etc) to give them some more options without relying on caster buffs.
-The magic items needed to replicate the above buffs are as follows:
Saving Throws: +5 Cloak of Resistance
AC: +5 Amulet of Natural Armor, +5 Armor, +5 Ring of Deflection
Touch AC: Part of +5 Ring of Deflection; adding to regular AC replicates a +5 shield.
Weapon: +5 Weapon.
Ability Score Bonuses: Works out as follows:
+9: +6 Enhancement, +3 from +1/4 ability score/level.
+8: +6 Enhancement, +2 from +1/4 ability score/level.
+7: +6 Enhancement, 1 casting of Wish.
+6: +6 Enhancement.
+5 to any ability score: 5 castings of Wish.
I figure a total of 6 castings of Wish isn't out of reach of most high-level parties, and the cost for those castings (150k worth of diamonds) is included in the WBL reduction.
The overall value of these magic items (assuming 1 weapon and no shield) is 530k, which is almost exactly 3/5ths of a 20th-level character's WBL, hence the 2/5ths WBL rule.
-The double-cost and only-masterwork rules for weapons and armor are mainly because no PC is ever going to enchant their items up to even +1, using these rules, since all their weapons and armor are magic starting as low as 4th level. So now they don't even need +1 to start adding enchantments; however, to balance for the fact that, for example, Major Fortification armor is now only priced as +5 armor but functions as +10 armor, the enchantment costs are doubled. It still makes effectively +10 weapons and armor basically half-cost (50k for armor, as opposed to 100k normally), but that's more balanced than quarter-cost.
P.S. Yes, the idea for trading wealth for bonuses, as well as scaling ability scores like this, came from 3.5's (in)famous Vow of Poverty (from Book of Exalted Deeds). However, in my opinion, I modified it so far from the original that I didn't feel the need to credit it. (Also, I didn't want to scare people away from reading this houserule; I know how broken Vow of Poverty can get in a 3.5 build.)
P.P.S. If you know why I named the ability score boosts the way I did, you get an invisible bonus. (NV is still way better than 3, though.)
P.P.P.S. For all the talk about needing playtesting, I'm not actually asking to put together a group to playtest this; at least, not right now. However, if anyone does use this houserule, please give me feedback as to how it went, what needs improving, and what's already good.
MUCH MUCH MUCH BETTER. I will have to do lots of math for a further analysis.
Question for the math people:
Say we took the list of items that make most christmas trees (cloak of resistance, stat items, amulet of natural armor, etc) and made the max bonus +2 for all of them. Would this break the game?
I see some advantages for this, twofold:
1) Player difficulty will increase, which is ok in many campaigns since players have so many options / classes / rules / etc
2) People who can cast stat spells or AC spells might actually have to use those spells.
Gamebreaking? Or just making it a little less xmas-treeish and more challenging?
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One of the things I'll be doing for weapons is making it so that the passive enhancement actually *doesn't* bypass DR. However, the magic weapon spell increases the enhancment by +1 (max +3) and allows it to bypass /magic, and Greater Magic Weapon increases by +1 (max +5) while allowing the weapon to bypass all DRs for your total effective enhancement bonus. Abilities like Arcane Pool and Divine Bond work the same as GMW, but are given a max +6 for funzies. Having a weapon with a +1 bonus equivalent is also sufficient for bypassing magic DR, but not others. Greater Magic Fang can either function like Magic Weapon for all attacks, or the greater version for one attack.
As it stands, your system adds +15 to regular/flat-foot AC and +5 to touch (or +20 to regular/flat-foot if using a shield). So the math is fine, other than a drop of 5 on regular AC (but if you're allowing stacking with Barkskin and such then that's fine). It feels kinda wonky to have an AC bonus that applies to touch *without* increasing regular AC. A level 3 monk would not yet have armor bonus, so they would have +1 touch AC over their regular AC, which seems kinda wrong to me. It's not unprecedented (dex-based Ghost Rager Barbarian), but still strange.
The system I'll be testing works a bit different with respect to AC, but I think the end result is pretty similar. Do consider having Mage Armor grant a +1 to those who already have a +4 armor bonus just from level to prevent it from being fully useless. Or perhaps just let the spell work and think of it like a magical chain shirt. As long as the shield spell still gives its normal shield bonus I don't see this as a nerf to that spell.
I might also recommend calling out deflection adding to CMD. It's hard enough keeping CMD up :)
PS: Your modifications certainly have their perks. I preferred 3 to NV because I got tired of always having my weapons taken away by people I don't trust and having the story consider that the reasonable path.
@DMKumoGekkou - Thanks! I'd love to see what you think of it after you runs some numbers. Again, my goal is to keep this in line with regular Pathfinder, more or less.
@Dragonsbane777 - Cool idea, but that's changing things a little too much for my taste. I'd love to see how it works out, though!
@Arrius - I thought about that, but there's one issue: How do you make a Google Doc "anonymous"? I have a Google account, but I can't figure out how to make only the doc accessible without linking the rest of my drive. How do most of the Pathfinder guide writers accomplish it?