Critical hits & negative Strength

[Malag]

Hi everyone,

This question bothered me for some time now and I couldn't find any topics about it, but how are critical hits from a creature with negative strength resolved?

Example would be tiny creature doing (1d2-2) damage on hit. So how much damage does it score on critical hit? 1 nonlethal? 2 nonlethal?

Thanks on responses,

Adam

[Komoda]

1d2-2 does 0 damage. 1d2-2*2 also does 0 damage. That character is in a bad position.

[Maezer]

2d2 - 2 for a crit.

Criticals only multiple bonus damage not penalties. Minimum remains 1 non lethal damage.

[Skylancer4]

Komoda wrote:

1d2-2 does 0 damage. 1d2-2*2 also does 0 damage. That character is in a bad position.

Doesn't a successful hit always do at least one point of damage before consideration of DR and the like that might reduce it to nothing?

[RedDogMT]

Komoda wrote:

1d2-2 does 0 damage. 1d2-2*2 also does 0 damage. That character is in a bad position.

No. The minimum amount of damage an attack can do is 1 hit point. If a creature is ONLY able to do 1 hit point of damage on a hit, then it becomes 1 nonlethal hit point of damage.

As far as a x2 critical hit for an attack that normally does 1d2-2, the result would be 2 hit points of nonlethal damage.

[Komoda]

CRB page 179 wrote:

Multiplying Damage: Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results.

All fixed numerical effects (not variables such as dice rolls) stack with critical hits.

A strength modifier is not a bonus or a penalty, it is a base modifier. It always multiplies.

[Glutton]

2. 2 Non-lethal Damage. I see it as (1d2-2) + (1d2-2). Minimum 1 twice.

[Komoda]

RedDog, where is that rule? I am not familiar with it.

Assuming it is true, the total with the crit would be 0, modified to 1, not modified to 1 then x 2.

Edit: Found it, I still believe it is 1 Non-lethal.

[Glutton]

srd wrote:

Multiplying Damage

Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results.

Minimum Damage

If penalties reduce the damage result to less than 1, a hit still deals 1 point of nonlethal damage

Relevant text for this thread. Have a nice debate!

[Komoda]

If it was 1d2-1 and a 1 and 2 were rolled for the crit, would you apply 1 lethal and 1 non-lethal?

[Skylancer4]

Glutton wrote:

2. 2 Non-lethal Damage. I see it as (1d2-2) + (1d2-2). Minimum 1 twice.

I'd actually argue that. It may be two dice rolls but the whole roll isn't considered to be separate attacks to be added together.

Roll the dice, then add the modifiers like normal. If the entire attack does less than one point, adjust to the minimum of one point.

There isn't anything that says to do what you suggest (other than trying to be nice to tiny creatures or the like, aka good will) in the rules as far as I ever seen.

[Rynjin]

No.

A crit is a single damage roll.

So if you do 1d2-1 normally, then you do 2d2-2 on a crit.

So, minimum damage you do 0 damage (1 nonlethal).

Up to a maximum of 2 damage.

It is rolled like this:

2d2 - 2 ⇒ (2, 1) - 2 = 1

Not like this:

1d2 - 1 ⇒ (1) - 1 = 0

Plus a separate

1d2 - 1 ⇒ (2) - 1 = 1

Which you then add together.

[Komoda]

Agreed.

[Maezer]

Komoda wrote:

A strength modifier is not a bonus or a penalty, it is a base modifier. It always multiplies.

No. http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/gettingStarted.html

"Determine Bonuses
Each ability, after changes made because of race, has a modifier ranging from –5 to +5. Table: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells shows the modifier for each score. The modifier is the number you apply to the die roll when your character tries to do something related to that ability. You also use the modifier with some numbers that aren't die rolls. A positive modifier is called a bonus, and a negative modifier is called a penalty. The table also shows bonus spells, which you'll need to know about if your character is a spellcaster."

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/combat.html
"A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together. Unless otherwise specified, the threat range for a critical hit on an attack roll is 20, and the multiplier is ×2.

Exception: Precision damage (such as from a rogue's sneak attack class feature) and additional damage dice from special weapon abilities (such as flaming) are not multiplied when you score a critical hit."

[Komoda]

I hate the way Pathfinder describes stuff. One sentence it is a modifier, in another it is a bonus or penalty.

My point was that the modifier is only one thing, be it positive or negative. It is not one entity if it was positive and another if it was negative and therefore treated differently in an equation.

Either way, it is untyped and always multiplies when called for it.

[Malag]

Usually the penalty isn't multiplied I think, but then again this is why I created the topic. I can see the arguments going either way.

[Komoda]

If the bonus multiplies, so does the penalty.

[wraithstrike]

When the rules only want you to add a positive modifer they will say add the bonus. The paladin's bonus to attacks when smiting is an example of this. When they only want you to add negative modifier they will save add a penalty.

Whey you they want you to add the modifier no matter if it is positive or negative they say add the modifier.

Quote:

Strength Bonus: When you hit with a melee or thrown weapon, including a sling, add your Strength modifier to the damage result. A Strength penalty, but not a bonus, applies on damage rolls made with a bow that is not a composite bow.

Quote:

Multiplying Damage: Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results.

[Malag]

@wraith

So what you are trying to say is, the damage modifier applies even if it's negative? A creature doing 1d2-2 damage would score a critical for 2d2-4 damage?

[Rynjin]

Malag wrote:

@wraith

So what you are trying to say is, the damage modifier applies even if it's negative? A creature doing 1d2-2 damage would score a critical for 2d2-4 damage?

Yes.