Does a mid-combat dex boost alter initiative order?


Rules Questions

Lantern Lodge

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

For example - An Urban barbarian gets an initiative of 10. Some other character gets an initiative of 11. Urban barbarian rages, giving a +4 to dex, which would have made his Initiative 12.

Does the order change?

Grand Lodge

No. The check is over and done with. Think of it this way, say a normal barbarian hits someone, then starts raging. The guy hit doesn't suddenly take more damage.


Jeff Merola wrote:
No. The check is over and done with. Think of it this way, say a normal barbarian hits someone, then starts raging. The guy hit doesn't suddenly take more damage.

That analogy is not apt, because damage is an instantaneous effect that is resolved and effectively disappears. Initiative is a totally strange corner-case of checks for which there is arguably no analogy. You make a check and have a 'score' for the entirety of combat, which you refer to, but can also change.

However, the text says that it is a Dexterity check that is made at the beginning of combat and you go at the same order for the rest of combat, except if a special initiative action is taken.

As a DM, I would say no for simplicity's sake, but as a player I would see it as a possible exploit if a battle were down to the skin of my teeth.

All that said, I have marked it for the FAQ, as it is not a question which seems to have been answered sufficiently in the rules or by other posters/developers.


Initiative wrote:

At the start of a battle, each combatant makes an initiative check. An initiative check is a Dexterity check. Each character applies his or her Dexterity modifier to the roll, as well as other modifiers from feats, spells, and other effects. Characters act in order, counting down from the highest result to the lowest. In every round that follows, the characters act in the same order (unless a character takes an action that results in his or her initiative changing; see Special Initiative Actions).

If two or more combatants have the same initiative check result, the combatants who are tied act in order of total initiative modifier (highest first). If there is still a tie, the tied characters should roll to determine which one of them goes before the other.

As Jeff says, it is very clearly a check. Changing your Dex doesn't change the result of that check. The only actions that change your initiative are Special Initiative Actions, Ready or Delay.

You wouldn't fall if you just hit the DC of a Fly check to hover and then get hit with a Ray of Exhaustion, because the check has already been made and the result is set. Similarly, once you make an Initiative check, the result is set.

Grand Lodge

The check is made once, and then your dexterity is never checked again. How is that less instantaneous than damage, which is also tracked for the entirety of combat and can also change?


*Assaults thread with a stick with a dangly spider on it*

Lantern Lodge

Jeff Merola wrote:
The check is made once, and then your dexterity is never checked again. How is that less instantaneous than damage, which is also tracked for the entirety of combat and can also change?

I guess, to clarify what gave rise to the question, and to play devil's advocate a bit, is the simple fact that initiative can change. Readying and action, or delaying, can change your order.

I know this comes down to one of those irritating 'how connected are these clauses' arguments, but the relevant text says "unless a character takes an action that results in his or her initiative changing; see Special Initiative Actions." Nothing in the Special initiative actions implies that these are the only ways to change initiative. Does that 'see' mean i.e. or e.g.?


Readying and Delaying actually do result in your initiative changing. Having your Dex change does not result in your initiative changing, because nothing anywhere in the rules says it does, and that is not how checks work in Pathfinder.

And just consider the headaches this would cause if it were to be true - any time someone is grappled, fatigued, exhausted, entangled, paralyzed, or unconscious, you would have to change the initiative order. And then change it back if they lose the condition. And then what happens if A goes on count 10, dispels the Hold Person affecting B, and B's initiative jumps from 8 to 14? Does B have to wait until count 14 comes again to act, or does the initiative order start to run in reverse to give B a turn?

It's not supported by the rules, and it would be an awful mess even if you wanted to house-rule it.


The initiative roll is really the 'moment' that the character acts (or not/or delays as the case may be) within the current battle scenario. Everyone moving at fractionally different moments within the six-second combat round.

The Barbarian Rage does indicate that there is a 'speeding up' of the character due to the 'red mist effect'. Thus making him/her more dexterous. Though not necessarily faster in terms of acting before anyone else.

Their initial roll of 10 shows that they were not as 'immediate' as everyone else in terms of reacting to the situation.

If the situation arose calling for a re-roll of initiative, then the increased Dex bonus could be added.


We've actually always played with the 3.5 optional initiative option of rerolling initiative each round. We like that it reflects that not everyone's reaction times stay the same throughout combat, the ebb and flow of the dance of death changes tempo and step without warning.

It keeps combat fresh and does help to include situations like this. Plus I got a player who rolls <5 on about 9/10 initiatives so it keeps him from going crazy...

But yes, normally the check is made once and remains unaltered except by a few special actions.


If it did modify your initiative, it would be the most exploitable thing ever. Beyond the "accidental" problems that Rufus points out, you could do exploity things like get your Cat's Grace dispelled (or get fatigued!) and get another turn right after the current one by reducing your dex ("Oh, my initiative dropped from 13 to 12 because I stopped raging, so it's my turn, right?" :/). Clearly, this way madness lies.

Edit: Oh, and I forgot delaying until just before the boss and trying to buff his Dex so he misses his turn. As hilarious as this would be no, just no.


Genuine wrote:
Jeff Merola wrote:
The check is made once, and then your dexterity is never checked again. How is that less instantaneous than damage, which is also tracked for the entirety of combat and can also change?

I guess, to clarify what gave rise to the question, and to play devil's advocate a bit, is the simple fact that initiative can change. Readying and action, or delaying, can change your order.

I know this comes down to one of those irritating 'how connected are these clauses' arguments, but the relevant text says "unless a character takes an action that results in his or her initiative changing; see Special Initiative Actions." Nothing in the Special initiative actions implies that these are the only ways to change initiative. Does that 'see' mean i.e. or e.g.?

I don't think it's an exhaustive list, but I do think you'd still have to take some kind of action to change your initiative. Just a change occurring to your dex score isn't, to my mind, enough to meet the "takes an action" clause.

So casting Cat's Grace is an action that changes your dexterity, it isn't an action that changes your initiative.

Sczarni

As others have pointed out, it's a check.

It's over and done with after it's called for.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Does a mid-combat dex boost alter initiative order? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.