
![]() |

Not sure if this is a Pathfinder rules question or a Golarion specific setting question. This is a question for a Pathfinder adventure set in Golarion, so I really want to conform to the rules of both (though as the GM, I do have the option of making up my own rules, but I'd rather not).
What happens to a devil when it dies? Does it cease to exist altogether, or does its "soul" (is that the correct word when it comes to devils?) go back to the plane that it came from to get a new body? And if it does return to the Hell from whence it came, how long until it can return to Golarion to wreak vengence on the PCs that killed it?
I'm running a Paizo adventure path, and my PCs are in a position to either kill or bargain with a very powerful devil. They're overthinking the decision (they really should just kill it, because they don't need its help nearly as much as they think), and between sessions, they're emailing back and forth about the questions they plan to ask using the spell Divination to determine how they should handle this. So I'm trying to be over-prepared once they decide which Divination questions to finally ask.

Arachnofiend |

When an outsider dies on the material plane they go back to their native plane. Only when killed in their native plane does an outsider truly die.
I think that outsiders usually need some sort of gateway to get into the material plane, like a planar binding gone wrong or something. They can't just waltz back in whenever they want.

Avoron |
Arachnofiend, as far as I can tell your first statement applies only to outsiders summoned by summoning spells:
"Calling: A calling spell transports a creature from another plane to the plane you are on. The spell grants the creature the one-time ability to return to its plane of origin, although the spell may limit the circumstances under which this is possible. Creatures who are called actually die when they are killed; they do not disappear and reform, as do those brought by a summoning spell (see below). The duration of a calling spell is instantaneous, which means that the called creature can't be dispelled."
"Summoning: A summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate. When the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from, but a summoned object is not sent back unless the spell description specifically indicates this. A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower, but it is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it can't be summoned again."

Artoo |
Arachnofiend, as far as I know an outsider can be killed on the material plane. You're likely thinking of the results of summoning spells. Something brought to any plane via summoning spells will be sent back to it's native plane rather than killed. But if they've ended up in a different plane some other way, like Plane Shift, Planar Binding, Gate, etc, they can be killed.
Calling: A calling spell transports a creature from another plane to the plane you are on. The spell grants the creature the one-time ability to return to its plane of origin, although the spell may limit the circumstances under which this is possible. Creatures who are called actually die when they are killed; they do not disappear and reform, as do those brought by a summoning spell (see below). The duration of a calling spell is instantaneous, which means that the called creature can't be dispelled.
Summoning: A summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate. When the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from, but a summoned object is not sent back unless the spell description specifically indicates this. A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower, but it is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it can't be summoned again.
Here's what the outsider type has to say on the matter:
Unlike most living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, don't work on an outsider. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection to restore it to life. An outsider with the native subtype can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be.
So Fromper, it would depend on how they ended up in the same place (presumably the material plane?). If it's through some sort of calling effect then the devil will actually die and unless someone decides to throw out some fairly potent magic to bring it back, it's not coming back. If it's a summoning effect, the devil won't die and will just take 24 hours to reform on its home plane. Then it can try to find its way back to the material plane to exact its vengeance if it so chooses.

Aratrok |

When you kill an outsider in Pathfinder (Golarion or otherwise, unless there are different rules for a specific setting) that outsider is actually dead, just like any other creature.
The only exception is Summoning spells like summon monster (not calling spells like planar binding/ally). None of the creatures summoned by those spells, outsider or otherwise, die when slain. They're more like virtual copies of a creature.

![]() |

Thanks for the responses.
I do have one more question, which may be more appropriate to start its own thread, but I figure I'll just throw it out here, since it's about the same situation. My group is considering cutting a deal with the devil, and they're figuring that if they put it in writing, they may be able to word it in a way to keep the devil from screwing them over. One of the questions they're considering asking with Divination is just how strongly binding such a written deal would be. ie Is the devil physically incapable of ever breaking their word?

DM_Blake |

"The devil"?
Which devil are we talking about? Pathfinder is not Earth - here we have only one "the devil" but in Pathfinder there are gajillions and their name is "Legion".
OK, probably not the answer you're looking for.
In general, demons and devils are creatures that are literally (or almost literally) formed out of alignment-stuff. While humans, elves, dwarves, orcs, trolls, giants, dragons, etc., are all made of flesh and bone and therefore can all have different personalities and different alignments, this is not true of demons and devils (and angels and archons, etc.).
Think of demons and devils as elementals. Fire elementals are literally made of fire. Water elementals are literally made of water. Etc. Demons are literally made of chaotic evil. Devils are literally made of lawful evil.
OK, that may not be exactly literal, but it's close enough for the thought experiment.
So, thinking of a chaotic evil demon, it MUST act in a chaotic evil way. It can not choose to act in a lawful way, or in a good way. At least, it is as antithetical to a demon to stop being chaotic evil as it would be for a fire elemental to stop being made of fire.
Likewise for lawful evil devils.
This is the primary difference between these fiends - they're both inherently evil, but demons are invariably chaotic (yes, I recognize the irony) and devils are invariable lawful.
To answer your question, the invariably lawful nature of devils means that if they agree to a contract, they MUST follow the letter of that contract. Deliberate failure to do so would be as antithetical to them as a fire elemental suddenly being made of water.
In short, the contract would be absolutely binding with any devil, but worthless with any demon.
From another angle, no demon would ever even want a contract or even think of creating one (but they would happily sign one if a mortal demanded it, then ignore the contract and laugh at what an idiot that mortal was as they eat his flesh and steal his soul).
Devils, on the other hand, love contracts because it forces the mortals to play by the devil's rules. Such contracts would be full of loop holes letting the devil break the contract for any number of reasons while still holding the mortal to his end. Devils' contracts pretty much always favor the devil in the long run, offering short-term benefits to the mortal with long-term advantage to the immortal devil. But while the contract is in force, that devil will follow it to the letter and the mortal will have to follow his end of the deal as well - or else the mortal breaks the contract and the devil can collect his reward (the mortal's soul) immediately (yes, stipulations for breach of contract will be worded into every contract as a matter of course, though the devil might include many stipulations to bind the mortal and might conveniently omit any stipulations to bind the devil - remember that the devil is obligated by its very nature to follow the letter of the contract but it is in no way obligated to make sure the contract is fair in the first place).

Zhangar |

Slight modification on what Blake said - demons aren't stupid. Most of them aren't, anyways.
A demon will honor a contract if the payoff is worth it to the demon. When contracting with a demon, make sure it has to perform its end before you perform your end.
What keeps the demon in the contract is that it's getting something it wants. That's the basic of trade, after all.
If a devil's somehow getting screwed on a contract, the devil will usually still perform on the contract and then seek revenge later. The devil cares about the contract itself.
If a demon's somehow getting screwed on a contract, it will usually break the contract to seek revenge immediately. (Unless breaking the contract also immediately hurts it.) The demon doesn't give a damn about the contract, just what it was getting out of it.
(And I'm not addressing any magically binding contracts, like what results from Planar Binding.)
Now I'm thinking of a quote from Planescape...
"[Devils? Demons?] The only real difference is that with [Devils], you collect your pay after the fight, and with [Demons], you collect your pay before the fight."

DM_Blake |

Slight modification on what Blake said - demons aren't stupid. Most of them aren't, anyways.
A demon will honor a contract if the payoff is worth it to the demon. When contracting with a demon, make sure it has to perform its end before you perform your end.
What keeps the demon in the contract is that it's getting something it wants. That's the basic of trade, after all.
Interesting point.
But most demons won't walk up to you and say "Sign this contract and I'll do favors for you". It wouldn't even occur to most of them and if it did, they would lack the perspective to even understand why that worthless paper would convince anyone to do whatever is written on it. The demon wouldn't expect you to keep your word and it wouldn't expect you to believe that it would keep its word.
By its very chaotic nature, it is impaired at even understanding the concept of keeping your word - the smart ones can intellectually grasp the concept and might even recognize that certain other creatures ARE bound by such nonsense (like a smart demon could recognize that devils must follow contracts), but they still lack the capacity to understand why this is so, or to truly trust such binding contracts. In much the same way that fire elementals probably lack the capacity to understand water - to them it's just a weird and unpleasant thing that they will never really understand.
If they did enter into a contract for some reason, or for the sake of argument, even a simple verbal agreement, then they would only follow that agreement while it's in their own best interest.
Or, to put restate it even simpler: Demons only follow what is in their best interest. And since they hold no agreement as binding, then the only way to get them to follow a contract is if the wording of that contract is exactly what they would have done without a contract.
So it doesn't matter if you get the demon to sign a written contract in blood, or if you get it to swear on "the precious", or if you simply get it to nod that it understands your request. It doesn't matter if you tell the demon "You do X before I will do Y" or not. None of that matters to the demon; if it wants Y badly enough that it's willing to do X first (e.g. in its best interest to do X in order to receive Y" then it MIGHT actually do X. Or it might just pretend to start doing X and then teleport behind you and eat your head and then walk away laughing at how stupid mortals are.

Zhangar |

I'd expect most contracts with demons (and between demons) to be strictly verbal. "Do ___ for me and I'll do ___ for you."
Things only get set down on paper when there's something special about the paper itself.
Since demons can actually manage to have cities and whatnot, I think they tolerate doing that stuff because it benefits them to do so.
Now that I'm thinking about it, Demonic Obedience are contracts. The observant performs ___ in exchange for getting ____ from the Demon Lord in question. It's a bargain that Demon Lords find useful to uphold, as it spreads their power and influence throughout the Planes.
(Tellingly, Princes of Darkness has actual rules for infernal contracts. Lords of Chaos has rules for managing to turn into a demon, but nothing about selling your soul to one.)
(Also, elder fire elementals are Int 10. I'd argue that they understand what water is, and they hate it.)

Mechagamera |
A devil will keep any contract it signs, but it won't sign just any contract.
A contract doesn't have to be for a soul, but it should lead to actions that cause the PC's to act in a LE fashion (so that they will probably end up in the 9 hells anyway), say requiring one of them to use a +2 blood-thirsty axiomatic weapon provided by the devil as their primary weapon for a year. Alternatively, actions that make the PC's seem LE (like guarding a missionary for the Church of Asmodeus on a 9-city speaking tour) are also good.
I would say you would need hard knowledge (law) and persuasion checks to make a "good" deal, and even then, I would require a service that could lead to pro-LE activity (although not so iron clad that the PC's can't cunningly get out of it without doing evil).

![]() |

There is no explicit rule that a devil can't break a contract but I would agree with DM_Blake that it really should be against its nature.
That doesn't mean it's not a terrible idea to enter into a contract with a devil, especially if the devil in question is very powerful. Devils get very powerful by being able to twist laws and contracts to their advantage. I wouldn't even touch a devil's contract without at least 5 ranks in profession (lawyer).
Pact Parchement or a similar effect might ensure that the mortals hold up their end.
"The devil"?
Which devil are we talking about? Pathfinder is not Earth - here we have only one "the devil" but in Pathfinder there are gajillions and their name is "Legion".
I'm running a Paizo adventure path, and my PCs are in a position to either kill or bargain with a very powerful devil.
That devil.