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In an attempt to write an optimization guide, I'm trying to learn more about how and why people enjoy the game. Please read over the following lists, and tell me if anything is missing, or if you agree or disagree.
IMPORTANT: This thread is for expressing opinions about what you enjoy. DO NOT POST TO TELL SOMEONE THAT THEY ARE HAVING BADWRONGFUN! You are welcome to express how you have fun or not but don't argue or even debate how someone else has fun!
As a player, I have fun:
- Controlling the actions of my PC.
- Customizing my PC with skills, feats, equipment, and other features.
- Knowing that if I generally play well, and have a little luck, I will do well most of the time.
- Having my characters decisions and actions affect the environment and story.
- Getting experience and treasure that allows me to increase the power of my character.
- Feeling that I can, and occasionally must, do my best to defeat encounters.
- Knowing that my fellow PCs are supporting me, and that we act in each others best interests.
- Knowing that my PC is on par with the rest of the party and that we affect the game in fairly equal amounts.
- Not knowing exactly what to expect, and trying to be ready for anything.
- Even if bad things happen to my character, or the dice go against me, I still have fun if I am engaged in the game.
- Feeling that in most opposed circumstances, it is the dice that decide the outcome.*
GMs enjoy the game for different reasons then players.
As a GM I have fun:
- Presenting a campaign world with locations, encounters, mythos, timeline and NPCs.
- Presenting a wide variety of encounters that engage the players, and encourage them to have fun playing their characters.
- Knowing I have general control of the storyline and timeline, with occasional (sometimes unexpected) exceptions.
- Knowing that players will use wits, teamwork and creativity to solve encounters, and vary their tactics to fit the situation.
- When everyone at the table participates in the game to the amount they are comfortable with.
- When players are friendly, kind, and enjoy themselves.
- While I decided if a roll is needed and add the modifiers, the dice decide the outcome.*
* GM, and even player "Cheating" (i.e. ignoring dice rolls) is a highly debatable topic. Like all issues, discuss it beforehand, and come to a consensus on how your group views it.
Note: I would like this thread to be about how you have fun, not things that ruin your fun. I would also like to keep this as general as possible, so that these ideas about fun can be applied broadly to many situations.
Again, this is a thread for people to express how they have fun. Don't tell another poster that they are doing it wrong.
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When I'm playing, I have fun when we all discover together what story's being told (even right down the the individual scene level), instead of the GM already having one in mind and enforcing it. If I wanted to ask "But why wouldn't [protagonist] just do X?" and be unable to do anything about it, I'd watch a movie or read a book. Same with watching a classic and familiar story unfold as expected.
But when I play a roleplaying game, that's my chance to just go ahead and do the thing that seems like what I think someone would actually do in XYZ situation. GMs who disallow that (whether explicitly or by requiring excessive numbers of d20 rolls at DCs that essentially guarantee eventual failure) are GMs I don't want to play with.
When I'm GMing, I have fun when a player has exactly the kind of clever idea that would make the above-described GMs drop their monocles.
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Crafting stories. Building characters. Rolling dice. Killing monsters. Hanging out with friends.
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* GM, and even player "Cheating" (i.e. ignoring dice rolls) is a highly debatable topic. Like all issues, discuss it beforehand, and come to a consensus on how your group views it.
Paranoia is a RPG where the dice are ultimately meaningless; the GM is not only allowed but expected to ignore them at his whim.
Hackmaster is a RPG where "the dice fall where they may". They are sacrosanct and not even the GM may fudge dice.
I'm not going to say that people who play Pathfinder like it was Hackmaster are doing it BadWrong, but I will say I don't subscribe to that mindset of "letting the dice fall where they may". Both Hackmaster and Paranoia have opposite extremes on that view and paradoxically end up in much the same place: the player has little agency.
I prefer to view Pathfinder as being somewhere in the middle of the continiuum on the "sacredness of dice". Players can't ever ignore them, of course, but the GM can. And Should, on occasion.
If a Pathfinder player has a great idea, it should work. It shouldn't be hostage to the outcome of a d20 roll.
If a Pathfinder player has a great idea, it should work. It shouldn't be hostage to the outcome of a d20 roll.
Do you apply that to opposed roles such as in a combat situation? Or is it a more general statement about dictating the story? Perhaps an example might help?
The defeat of my enemies... the lamentation of their women.
As to playing........
I was going to title this thread, "what is fun in life", but I worried everyone would answer with variations of the three things Conan listed. While crushing your enemy and seeing him driven before you is no doubt fun, after a while, hearing the lamentations of the women isn't as fun as it first sounds.
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If a Pathfinder player has a great idea, it should work. It shouldn't be hostage to the outcome of a d20 roll.Do you apply that to opposed roles such as in a combat situation? Or is it a more general statement about dictating the story? Perhaps an example might help?
To invoke a third example: Pathfinder isn't Amber Diceless Roleplaying, either.
I share most of the same goals listed upthread. As a GM I just make a point of ignoring the dice when the dice get in the way of fulfilling those goals. As a player, I expect the GM to know when to throw the dice (or even the rulebook) aside for the sake of the game. We're not playing a video game adjudicated by a computer, we're playing a Roleplaying Game run by and for real people.
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It's been a long time since I was last a player, so I'm going to answer for myself as a GM:
Seeing the creative, whacky, or downright bizarre ways the players decide to achieve their goals.
Seeing the players win encounters.
Seeing those "lightbulb moments" when the players figure something out.
Seeing the players groan at some of the puns I inject into character names or plot titles (like, say, a horse racer called Mary Olivia Kristine Angela Rachel Taylor, who signs using her first name and everything else as initials. Or a plot about [redacted] taking control of a country, called Reigning Cats and [also redacted].
Making up interesting NPCs, even if the players only ever know of them as "that blacksmith from wheresit".
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As a GM and a player, what I enjoy most in the game is an encounter that is challenging to the point that the players are concerned, scared even, that they are going to come out of it victorious, and then still manage, by whatever the means, to pull their butts out of it and survive. That's a good game, and usually memorable, when it is discussed for a few sessions afterward.
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As a GM and a player, what I enjoy most in the game is an encounter that is challenging to the point that the players are concerned, scared even, that they are going to come out of it victorious, and then still manage, by whatever the means, to pull their butts out of it and survive. That's a good game, and usually memorable, when it is discussed for a few sessions afterward.
How often? (If you don't mind my asking.)
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As GM or Player, the largest part of my fun just comes from having a good time with friends. (Corny, I know)
Whether major plot elements are fulfilled, or the party is stuck in a bind; or if most of the night passes with players telling jokes, stories, and generally off on non-game tangents....we all have fun getting together.
The social aspect of tabletop gaming is what always drew me. (I never understood what was appealing about a single-player RPG game on the computer, where you never interact with a fellow human being.)
Great victories, tragic defeats, hilarious scenes, or "OH CRAP!" moments...the shared experience of a good group of friends is ultimately the big prize in my book
You're not going to score points with the IronHard Dice Nazi crowd. :)
I think this is something I need to address, as there are very different opinions.
.-IronHard Dice Nazi crowd - Or "GM roles in the open crowd" function as I described in the original post.
-GM rolls in secret, and may or may not follow the dice. Requires the players to trust the GM will fudge, but not know when for fun to be maintained.
-GM dictates action in some opposed circumstances without dice rolls. Requires players to trust the GM will dictate the action for the benefit of the game (without the 'illusion' of dice rolls) for fun to be maintained.
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What is fun as a player is describing some cinematic action my PC is attempting and having it succeed or fail spectacularly (either one is fine by me.)
Like describing doing a backflip off a non-moving cart and trying an Intimidation check before engaging in combat... And fumbling my Acrobatics, causing me to roll down an embankment, my weapon thrown 20ft away. The enemy was not intimidated in the least.
Or nailing that Acrobatics check to cartwheel down some inn stairs that leads directly to the capture of an elf that robbed an NPC buddy.
Or when I was in a tent housing herd beasts, weaponless, grabbed a dropped whip that I do not know how to use and tried to engage an enemy, only to fumble, wrapping the whip around my ankles and tripping myself, knocking my head on a fencepost and I'm out cold for three rounds... While the beasts are panicking and the tent is BURNING DOWN AROUND US ALL.
...good times...
As a GM and a player, what I enjoy most in the game is an encounter that is challenging to the point that the players are concerned, scared even, that they are going to come out of it victorious, and then still manage, by whatever the means, to pull their butts out of it and survive. That's a good game, and usually memorable, when it is discussed for a few sessions afterward.How often? (If you don't mind my asking.)
I'm assuming that you are asking "How often is it discussed?" And by discussed I meant remarked or commented on. It usually comes up for a few sessions afterward, usually analogous comparisons.
Or did I miss the mark altogether Jiggy?
As a GM and a player, what I enjoy most in the game is an encounter that is challenging to the point that the players are concerned, scared even, that they are going to come out of it victorious, and then still manage, by whatever the means, to pull their butts out of it and survive. That's a good game, and usually memorable, when it is discussed for a few sessions afterward.How often? (If you don't mind my asking.)I'm assuming that you are asking "How often is it discussed?" And by discussed I meant remarked or commented on. It usually comes up for a few sessions afterward, usually analogous comparisons.
Or did I miss the mark altogether Jiggy?
I think he means how often do you GM a fight that meets those conditions. When I ran 2e, I used to fudge a lot so that every major fight seemed like that. It always felt that they faced insurmountable odds, and overcame it by the skin of their teeth.
It got old. When every significant fight was like that, it felt forced and fake. Because it was. I thought the players wanted that feeling, and they did, the first few times.
So what I'm guessing Jiggy is asking is how often you have a fight that "the players are concerned, scared even, that they are going to come out of it victorious, and then still manage, by whatever the means, to pull their butts out of it and survive"?
How often? (If you don't mind my asking.)
I'm guessing he is asking how often you have encounters that push the players to the brink. I have found that is only fun for something like 10%-20% of encounters. More then that, and it pushes the players to feel they need to optimize to survive. It also requires that the players take the only options that will get them out of extreme circumstances, which in a way limits player choice of how to play their characters. I recommend that most fights are fairly easy (APL+1) by the CR system, but can become high risk due to dice, party composition, player mistakes, etc.
Well, if that's the question, it doesn't happen with any regularity. It comes when it comes, but its usually the bigger fights, and not necessarily the ones involving the BBEG.
Sometimes its even better when its a "we got this" fight, and then things quickly spiral out of control. Its amazing sometimes how much bad die rolls can totally flamingo-up a situation. (Its like a cock-up, only much, much bigger.)
For Pathfinder specifically, treating this pulpy world with all the melodrama and camp it deserves. My groups in the past would RP grimdark (and laugh out of game), but it is so much fun to have the PCs actually be funny themselves.
GM :starts describing a road
PC 1 as if he hears the narration: "A Road? LET'S TAKE IT!"
PC 2: "Oh NO! Things have turned a bit grey here!"
PC 3: "Perhaps we should let the godlike narrative voice catch up and describe what we see..."
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(I never understood what was appealing about a single-player RPG game on the computer, where you never interact with a fellow human being.)
Really? Have you also never understood what was appealing about reading a book, watching a sunset, taking a walk through a nice park, learning gymnastics, or producing a piece of art?
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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@Randarak - Yes, I meant how often are the fights that difficult. I've heard GMs say that they're not having fun unless at least one PC goes unconscious every fight. I would hate a game like that. But I do like the idea of some fights being hard. :) (Yet, interestingly, the fights I have the fondest memories of have generally been the ones my tablemates and I have completely trounced, not the narrow victories.)
@Randarak - Yes, I meant how often are the fights that difficult. I've heard GMs say that they're not having fun unless at least one PC goes unconscious every fight. I would hate a game like that. But I do like the idea of some fights being hard. :) (Yet, interestingly, the fights I have the fondest memories of have generally been the ones my tablemates and I have completely trounced, not the narrow victories.)
I agree. I've played with an (admittedly very creative GM) who told me he didn't think he was doing his job unless, at least once per session, the PCs all thought they were going to die. I don't play in that game anymore, because, to say it nicely: that focus is too narrow.
I'm not adverse to challenging encounters, in fact, I prefer them to be challenging because of the usual time constraints on gaming - having a couple of "easy" encounters just eats up time - but as Jiggy says - easy can sometimes be fun, too. That's a funny calculus there because you can easily get in the trap where you create a cycle where difficulty-as-interest makes the players want or need to nova, so you up the difficulty to keep it interesting, etc., etc. An easy encounter can be great strategy - because players use a resource feeling superior, and then in the very next encounter they wish they still had that point/spell/daily etc.
That's why it's key to realize that, despite the fact that there is fun to be had in the difficulty of an encounter in the pure mechanics, that's not *all the fun that can be had*. If difficulty makes players focus only on that aspect, then the others dim a little (or a lot). My best solution, and the most fun for me (and I hope my players), is to make the difficulty come from complications, options, etc. When players have lots of choices to make, the difficulty gets subsumed in the choices.
tl/dr: IMHO, the most fun "difficulty" comes from the GM creating an encounter that presents the players with lots of choices; these don't all have to be mechanical.
-cs
1- Freedom of Choice:
Being able to do anything you want (or at least try) is the whole reason why I play RPGs. No other game gives me absolute freedom of world interaction and character development.
2- Fairness:
This ensures my actions are what decide my fate, not the GM's whims... (although I'm still at the mercy of the dice gods :P).
(I never understood what was appealing about a single-player RPG game on the computer, where you never interact with a fellow human being.)Really? Have you also never understood what was appealing about reading a book, watching a sunset, taking a walk through a nice park, learning gymnastics, or producing a piece of art?
Wow Jiggy. Why all the negative waves?
I enjoy all the things you site just fine. I just think RPGs specifically are far superior when playing as a group.Shared experiences. Working as a team to overcome challenges. Playing off of each other in-character. The actual role-playing part of RPGs is best done with others.
Playing an RPG alone, to me, is like acting on a stage in an empty room.
That's all.
If you disagree; that's fine by me. Enjoy your hobbies however you get enjoyment out of them.
Cheers.
When I DM, I get the greatest enjoyment from seeing the players interact with the world I create for them, and participate in the story we're all telling.
My favourite moments are when I can see that a player is thinking and acting from the perspective of their character. I find those moments lead to the most interesting results.