I don't plan on letting my characters use any of the labs to perform crafting of any tech items - I just feel its just beyond anyone in my home-brew and it also keeps the items highly valuable due to rarity.
Having said that I don't have an issue with them gaining implants. But I am not sure how to allow this. Only thing I can think of is if they somehow robojack the doctor-bot in the final adventure.
Anyone else have thoughts?
If you think of them as nano-based, they could auto-implant/burrow in when activated perhaps.
I'm not sure you actually need a cybernetics lab to implant cybernetics, just to craft them. Anyone with knowledge (engineering), heal, and the technologist feat would be able to do it lab or no. I still see the issue with finding someone with the skill and willingness to do so, as was mentioned.
With all the Kytons running around Numeria it shouldn't be too hard to find someone to install some cybernetics for you, its gonna hurt tho:-p
|
My understanding was that you need a laboratory to craft the implants, but there is no rules requirement about a location to surgically install them.
Perhaps any temple to a good, hygienic deity would suffice just as long as you have a surgeon with a decent Heal skill.
Personally I am thinking of having Marrow from Book 2 be the most talented surgeon on hand...
My understanding was that you need a laboratory to craft the implants, but there is no rules requirement about a location to surgically install them.
Perhaps any temple to a good, hygienic deity would suffice just as long as you have a surgeon with a decent Heal skill.
Personally I am thinking of having Marrow from Book 2 be the most talented surgeon on hand...
There's no ruling, I think, but at least the way I look at it, you'd presumably need the Technologist feat.
In the Technology Guide it notes on page 35 that an NPC would usually charge about 1/10 of the total price of a piece of cybertech. You could probably have them do some kind of knowledge (local) check in a reasonably sized settlement to find a surgeon skilled in cybertech implantation. I realize that Starfall is the only reasonably sized city, so yes, as stated above, a reprogrammed surgeon robot, pacified Marrow, or modded Khonnir would do the best.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I don't plan on letting my characters use any of the labs to perform crafting of any tech items - I just feel its just beyond anyone in my home-brew and it also keeps the items highly valuable due to rarity.
Having said that I don't have an issue with them gaining implants. But I am not sure how to allow this. Only thing I can think of is if they somehow robojack the doctor-bot in the final adventure.
Anyone else have thoughts?
See the Technology Guide:
You can build cyberware and install it in a creature's body.
Prerequisites: Technologist, Heal 9 ranks, Knowledge (engineering) 9 ranks
Benefit: You can create cybernetic items. Creating a cybernetic item takes 1 day for every 1,000 gp in the item's price. To create the object, you must use up raw materials costing half of this total price. See Crafting High-Tech Items for more information.
You can repair a broken cybernetic item if it is one that you could make. Doing so costs half the raw materials and half the time it would take to craft that item from scratch.
You can also install a cybernetic item in a creature's body. See the Cybertech section for more information on installing cyberware.
In the Cybertech section:
Installing a piece of cybertech takes a number of hours equal to the cybertech's implantation value if the installation is done by hand—certain technological items can speed this installation time. The target must be willing or helpless during the entire installation, at the end of which the installer attempts a Heal check against the cybertech's Install DC—this specific value is listed for each cybertech item. On a success, the target takes Constitution damage equal to the cybertech's implantation value and the cybertech immediately activates. On a failed check, the target still takes the Constitution damage but the installation fails; a new attempt to install the cybertech can be made, although it's wise to wait for the Constitution damage to heal before trying again.
Note that surgeon robots and autodocs can install cybernetic items much faster and likely with fewer side-effects.
There's always Doc Hellbroth in book 5 (pages 13-14), or have we all forgotten him so quickly? He's already setup with all the necessary feats and a cybernetics lab, so assuming your PCs don't just kick in his door and murder him, they could get any number of implants done at the Red Reaver in Starfall. My player's are pretty big on taking "stand-out" NPCs alive after combat to get information and try to force their enemies to work for them as best as possible. Heck, the text flat out says that if the PCs aren't immediately hostile and don't approach him in a group, that he is annoyed, but thinks they are there for cybernetic enhancement. If you don't want your PCs to simply kill Doc Hellbroth and take over the lab to start manufacturing their own cybernetic implants, then maybe you should just consider taking the technological crafting feats out of your game; then it wouldn't matter if they find a workshop or not, they too dumb to use irt.
There's always Doc Hellbroth in book 5 (pages 13-14), or have we all forgotten him so quickly? He's already setup with all the necessary feats and a cybernetics lab, so assuming your PCs don't just kick in his door and murder him, they could get any number of implants done at the Red Reaver in Starfall. My player's are pretty big on taking "stand-out" NPCs alive after combat to get information and try to force their enemies to work for them as best as possible. Heck, the text flat out says that if the PCs aren't immediately hostile and don't approach him in a group, that he is annoyed, but thinks they are there for cybernetic enhancement. If you don't want your PCs to simply kill Doc Hellbroth and take over the lab to start manufacturing their own cybernetic implants, then maybe you should just consider taking the technological crafting feats out of your game; then it wouldn't matter if they find a workshop or not, they too dumb to use irt.
I considered that, but I think Doc Hellbroth is really meant to be hostile, and I'm not sure how willing PCs would be to let a chaotically evil, drugged-up and disfigured mad scientist perform vital procedures on them. A slip of the scalpel and—whoops, didn't mean to stab your exposed heart there!
I agree with you Mushu; Hellbroth certainly seems to be in place to get his mud-hole stomped in. This is Pathfinder though, and the way I see it, if all roads lead to violent encounters, then you're only getting a fraction of your money's worth out of the game. I know it seems like an unlikely option when first reading about Hellbroth that the PC's will elicit him for cybernetic enhancement, however it's written into the AP, so even Tim Hitchcock considered it as one potential, if not unlikely possibility.
And back to my original point: this is Pathfinder. There are so many possible ways to turn even the most hostile of creatures into allies simply using spells and class abilities and such, even if only for a short time. One successful charm person and the not-so-good Doc Hellbroth would be all too happy to help the party out with cybernetic enhancements. Heck, he might even be willing to discount the installation for his friends; he has been making money on the side selling refined, strange fluids to someone in the Palace of Fallen Stars. "What's that you say PC's? You'd like to hear all about that as well. And why not? We're all friends here." Not to mention he has a spectacularly low chance of saving against this type of effect (even including his racial bonus vs. enchantments) for a character of his level, and 13 hours should certainly be enough time to get your surgery on.
That being said, I've always found the developments resulting from RPing to be the most rewarding. A clever and stubborn enough player will find a way to finagle just about anything though.
Finding people that have them implanted already and then cutting them out of them. Cyber-snatching is a great way to go. Give me that arm you berk! I needs it for me own precious cyberware!
Also, the auto-attaching cybernetics is a fun trick, especially if you put the cybertech in a black box and make it part of the treasure. Said treasure needs the Craft Cybertech or Technologist feat to work or activate the item, but it can install it with a set DC.
I agree with you Mushu; Hellbroth certainly seems to be in place to get his mud-hole stomped in. This is Pathfinder though, and the way I see it, if all roads lead to violent encounters, then you're only getting a fraction of your money's worth out of the game. I know it seems like an unlikely option when first reading about Hellbroth that the PC's will elicit him for cybernetic enhancement, however it's written into the AP, so even Tim Hitchcock considered it as one potential, if not unlikely possibility.
And back to my original point: this is Pathfinder. There are so many possible ways to turn even the most hostile of creatures into allies simply using spells and class abilities and such, even if only for a short time. One successful charm person and the not-so-good Doc Hellbroth would be all too happy to help the party out with cybernetic enhancements. Heck, he might even be willing to discount the installation for his friends; he has been making money on the side selling refined, strange fluids to someone in the Palace of Fallen Stars. "What's that you say PC's? You'd like to hear all about that as well. And why not? We're all friends here." Not to mention he has a spectacularly low chance of saving against this type of effect (even including his racial bonus vs. enchantments) for a character of his level, and 13 hours should certainly be enough time to get your surgery on.
That being said, I've always found the developments resulting from RPing to be the most rewarding. A clever and stubborn enough player will find a way to finagle just about anything though.
That's funny, I usually agree with exactly what you're saying, I guess I'm letting my bias on Doc Hellbroth seep into my advice. I should say the way I'd personally run it would be to not use Doc Hellbroth, but I agree, if the PC was crafty enough I would definitely allow it.
|
|
Thanks Dragonchess - conversations always become a lot more on-point and constructive once we actually read the rules.
I've realised if I want to have my dream of Marrow being the only capable non TL cybertech surgeon for miles and miles, I've got to pump her up to being a level 9 necromancer. That's a spicy meatball for a low level party!
At least I'll be nerfing her feats with Skill Focus: Heal, Technologist and Craft Cybertech - all of which don't have immediate combat benefits.
Given that the party starts finding cybertech in book one, it's a bit of a shame the only viable mod-as-written cybertech surgeon is in the penultimate book.
Okay, now I've got to start brainstorming some requests Marrow can have for the hapless PCs, should they wish to have their bodies modified for the sake of super-science. There's got to be a new plot hook about why she might actually consider helping the folks who have single-handedly wiped out the Smilers.
Thanks Dragonchess - conversations always become a lot more on-point and constructive once we actually read the rules.
I've realised if I want to have my dream of Marrow being the only capable non TL cybertech surgeon for miles and miles, I've got to pump her up to being a level 9 necromancer. That's a spicy meatball for a low level party!
At least I'll be nerfing her feats with Skill Focus: Heal, Technologist and Craft Cybertech - all of which don't have immediate combat benefits.
Given that the party starts finding cybertech in book one, it's a bit of a shame the only viable mod-as-written cybertech surgeon is in the penultimate book.
Okay, now I've got to start brainstorming some requests Marrow can have for the hapless PCs, should they wish to have their bodies modified for the sake of super-science. There's got to be a new plot hook about why she might actually consider helping the folks who have single-handedly wiped out the Smilers.
I'm not trying to spite or step on toes, I just think that your first comment is amusing because I was actually looking at those exact rulings in my copy of the Technology Guide that Dragonchess pulled up when I made my comments. I supposed I should have been more concise in my comments that I was more expressing my personal opinion on that matter than actually giving a solid piece of ruling. Bad commenting on my part.
Thanks all. All good ideas.
|
|
So I surgically altered Marrow to give a very X-Com Enemy Within-esque 'dark path' to cybernetics in the first arc of Iron Gods.
MARROW
Female Hobgoblin Necromancer 9
NE Medium humanoid
Init +3; Senses Darkvision 60ft; Blindsight 10ft; Perception +4
DEFENSE
AC 18 (+3 dex, +1 dodge, +4 shield)
hp 74 (9d6+36)
Fort +7 Ref +7 Will +8
OFFENSE
Speed 30ft
Melee Dagger +5 (1d4+1/19-20)
Special Attacks Channel Negative Energy 5/a day (DC 14)
Necromancer Spell Like Abilities: Grave Touch (4 rounds) (CL9th; concentration +10)
Necromancer Spells Prepared (CL9th; concentration +10)
5th overland flight, waves of fatigue
4th enervation, contagion (leprosy) (DC17), arcane eye
3rd hold person (DC 16), lightning bolt (2) (DC16), vampiric touch
2nd blindness/deafness (DC 15) (2), command undead (DC 15), daze monster (DC 15), ghoul touch (DC 15), shatter (DC 15)
1st cause fear (DC 14), charm person (DC 14), magic missile (3), shield
0 (at will) bleed (DC 13), light, mending, touch of fatigue
Opposition schools: conjuration, illusion
STATISTICS
STR 12, DEX 16, CON 16, INT 16, WIS 8, CHA 10
Base Atk +4; CMB +5; CMD 19
Feats Command Undead, Dodge, Iron Will, Scribe Scroll, Toughness, Technologist, Skill Focus: Heal, Craft Cybernetics
Skills Craft Alchemy +10, Fly +11, Heal +12, Knowledge Engineering +15, Knowledge Nature +15, Perception +4, Spellcraft +10
Languages Common, Goblin, Hallit, Orc, Androffan
SQ arcane bond (dagger), life sight, power over undead
Combat Gear: same.
Notes:
This upgrade significantly increases the threat that Marrow poses to the PCs. In order to balance out her difficulty, allow the PCs to learn a bit more about her before the final battle. Before the PCs arrive in Scrapwall, Dinvaya (p.54) and Marrow have struck up an unlikely kinship. Marrow has fled her brutal race, who favour rigid hierarchies and martial violence rather than scientific tinkering. Dinvaya has fled the Technic League, who order that only amongst their number can learn the ways of science. They are both outcasts.
At one point Marrow had visited the temple of Brigh, keen to learn the skills of construct crafting from Dinvaya. Dinvaya can tell this story if the PCs donate technological gear worth 1,000gp or above to her. Secretly, the skills were to create the weapons required for a Rust-Risen, but Marrow didn't share that detail. Dinvaya's neutral nature and utter loneliness in Scrapwall warmed her to Marrow, and Marrow's appreciation of someone who could teach her something didn't hurt. Dinvaya learnt that Marrow was fascinated by the secret flesh-warping technology of cybernetics and craved to experiment and improve upon still-living flesh. She's bored of necromancy.
Marrow let slip to Dinvaya that her scalpel (dagger) is her arcane bond with great sentimental qualities to her. If the PCs somehow take the scalpel from Marrow, not only does she suffer the penalties of the Arcane Bond class feature, but she pleads to the PCs to not destroy the precious tool. If the PCs are open to severe bodily modification, and an uneasy alliance with a bored foul necromancer, a trade and ongoing business relationship may be on the cards...
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So I surgically altered Marrow to give a very X-Com Enemy Within-esque 'dark path' to cybernetics in the first arc of Iron Gods.
** spoiler omitted **...
I like this, I might use it. Thanks for the contribution! And by the way, hobgoblins actually are interested in scientific tinkering, especially engineering, in fact. Granted, their engineers and alchemists tinker to create instruments of warfare, it's science none the less.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
great AoM now i want to make a Hobgoblin (Cybernetic Warrior) Fighter:-)
thanks:-)
|
|
Hrm, good point.
Maybe her backstory could be tweaked a bit. Maybe they were demon-worshipping hobgoblins from up north, a clan that was being manipulated by fiends, and Marrow chose solitude and a life of lesser evil.
Maybe she had a scientific rival who cast her out from her original clan? The important thing is that the PCs get some information about her before they barge on in and enter a world of high level necromancy hurt. I'd also recommend moving her zombies to bolster the woeful lobotomites - otherwise even with her 'disrupt, not kill' spell set she might be too nasty.
I would imagine that Redfang suspects Marrow is vivisecting Whiskifiss and would happily lend 1-2 grenades to get revenge. However as the rules work, it seems difficult to use grenades on a flying target?
I would also recommend that conversation continues throughout combat, and if the party can reduce her to under 35 hit points, she becomes open to a conditional surrender - subject to the surgically altered PCs taking out the Lords of Rust. If you want to play up her 'evil' factor, she might even demand a steady stream of live subjects for the PCs to provide to practice on.
Hrm, good point.
** spoiler omitted **
...for some reason the spoiler is being omitted on my mobile device...
Wow, I really like this, Kestler! I love the idea of scientific rivals, perhaps a small clan or contingent of hobgoblins came to Numeria hoping to learn of advanced and alien engineering, but as competition and paranoia grew high among the ill-fated fellowship, Marrow eventually disabled and consumed her peers, saving the most fit of the bunch for her experimentations into cybernetically-enhanced undead, which eventually yielded her troop of rust-risen. Eventually she attracted kindred spirits of cannibalism and mutilation, forming the Smiler gang of Scrapwall.