I suspect that if there were enough wands for every single villager, every commoner would have maxed out UMD =P
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Yeah, an orc horde showing up to attack a town and getting magic missiled/lightning bolted/fireballed to death with dozens of 3 charge wands probably isn't what's intended.
Well no, I don't believe so either. But that's not what's being debated here at the moment.
And no, a hamlet full of commoners won't be using a lot of wands and scrolls.
They will be using loads of rings, potions, wondrous items, magic weapons, and whatever else they can use. That's assuming they don't use them to run. Or summon worse things on you.
The trouble is that you're not understanding some fundamental facts about human nature. The bandits are not going to attack the small town. That's stupid, that gets you killed. That gets adventurers sent on you or gods forbid hellknights.
I'm not going to tangle with angry Hellknights Ian. I'm just not.
And going to Riddleport? Are you insane? We'd have the whole city on us before we got through the gate. And I promise you it's not with offers to buy.
I think the real question isn't why don't bandits just knock the place over. It's why do bandits even exist at all?
I mean seriously why would I risk my life to rob a village full of potential death when I can become part of it and share in that standard of living?
You asked why you find it so difficult to believe that despite all the hostile critters of the world these settlements exist.
Maybe you have the answer and refuse to believe that.
I mean we have people living in Australia and somehow managing to have long and fulfilling lives despite it's genuine attempts to murder them.
So perhaps the reason these places survive is because they have the means to defend themselves.
Pathfinder is really, really liberal about the availability of magic items. DM's are also really, really lazy when it comes to getting bowled over by Walmart players who won't do anything until they get their +1 fiery icy freezing weapon that acid upgrade.
Pathfinder says that a "Small Town", small town, mind you, as in, sleepy Canadian farm town.. has 500gp base, 2,500gp max, 3rd level spells, 2-8 minor magical items above base and 1-4 medium above base available.
Lazy DM's don't figure out what those 'items' are, and let player walk all over them shopping for things, citing things the rules don't say, like not having all 3rd level spells available. Or It's a small town, there has to be one spellcaster who can cast 3rd level spells to enchant my adamantine phallus to +1
DM's also get lazy and let players have casual access to large cities and Metropolis', which is pretty much free reign to buy whatever they want at any given time if the DM doesn't keep a chokehold on availability, and when something it's available, it's the players calling him out on breaking the rules.
The first thing a DM *should* do is:
1. If an uncommon item isn't available, it may not be available for a month or longer. Not a week later.
2. Determine whether the person who sells magic doodads is just a trader or an actual wizard.
3. Determine if there is even a fully-leveled wizard associated with the town, and whether or not he would give the party the time of day.
4. Consider that many items with charges may have been 'previously used' and not come fully charged. There is no compulsion for a spellcaster vendor to know or be honest about this.
5. Consider that traders dealing in "Majik Itemz" may try to hawk off fake or cursed items to the players instead of what they asked for if it's of a similar description. Consider Spellcasters who don't like the party for being pushy or an1noying to give them scrolls of faulty or nonfunctional spells.
The game breaks down if the PCs can't spend their wealth on the right items so rather than roll for all of the wands a thorpe has they just happen to have the CLW wand the adventurers need.
The game doesn't break down if the GM is clever in his challenges and not out to run "Level 1 epic battle tournament" as a campaign idea.
The Haversack is probably the prime example of one of the first "I MUST GET THIS NAOW" items players clamour for. These items should be seeded into the game, not the shops. Maybe it's not the same name. Maybe the functionality is slightly different? Same item, slightly different.
DM's shouldn't also be shoving rolls of gold coins up the rectums of giant rats and other creatures that have no plausible means or reason to be carrying 'liquid wealth', and almost always seem to be encountered in or within immediate proximity to their home/lair/nest/stash/chest with their name on it in big glowing magic letters above it.
As a point, I keep liquid wealth to a minimum for starters, and if the fighter wants to scoff at a +1 dwarven hammer because he wants to be a crit-monkey, that's his problem. He'll take the loss in selling it and finding whatever exotic weapon he's pre-destined himself for, and miss out on the other stuff that hammer could do that I never quite bothered to tell the party about yet.
Maybe there's a large wealth vaccuum that needs to be filled because they're working a little too undergeared for my liking. I don't toss them a diseased dragon on death's door. I give them an adventure, and they may stumble on a mine, or some other form of material business venture. I make them =play=, and they'll be rewarded. If they go "Well, that's nice. When do I roll initiative?", their loss, sadly.
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It's why do bandits even exist at all?
Well, for one, the Pathfinder universe of full of forces that just want to see the world burn.
Yeah, low level bandits are schmuks that prey on travelers. Why work an honest wage if you can take it from someone else?
(Note that being a bandit is not a good career decision. People make amazingly bad career decisions all the time. =P)
Higher level bandit groups are more akin to small armies led by dangerous bad-asses that are fully capable of assaulting a settlement if they wish - that tiny hamlet with its 1,000 purchase limit might be worth occasionally harassing for entertainment, but the higher level bandits often have bigger targets to be aiming at - while needing to do so in a way that they won't get overwhelmed by their many foes.
Hell, that's basically how Belkzen works - the orc tribes are massive, dangerous bandit groups that are usually wrapped up in fighting each other - and occasionally get united and push back Lastwall's border further.
To get somewhat back on topic, I suspect that, when push comes to shove, the actual NPC Wealth guidelines overwrite a village's hypothetical infinite offensive magic items.
I.e., there's another part of RAW that deals with how much resources and equipment NPCs will actually have, independent of the settlement rules.
@ Atarlost - actually, you can get amusing results when the party goes looking for something and the dice say "no." Which is how my CotCT party wound up with a wand of infernal healing as their initial healing wand purchase, rather than a cure light wand =P
I'll delete the massive essay response and summarize briefly. I've been GM'ing for a long time, so I know how to tune my challenges.
"As a GM. I run my world, not the players. The players are allowed to control the narrative through their characters actions according to the rules governing their actions, but everything else is the GM's right and rule.
The Game Masters' guide is for the Game Master, not the players, and it only contains suggestions and framework to assist the building of my world.
The players have only one requirement: Play by the rules, have fun.
The GM has only one responsibility: Do not contradict the rules the Players have to play by, and keep it fun."
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There is no raw support for 75% check for every item of every caster level of every charge, it's just a couple over zealous fans trying to dictate how they play is the right way to play. It destroys any semblance of wbl by NPC level, destoys any attempt at immersion and will lead to overly wealthy players who turn evil and raise the first thorp they find. I would completely ignore the hogwash being bandied about in this thread, it is really kind of shameful in my opinion.
What are you even talking about?
The monetary value is exactly the point. One village knocked over and an entire gang is set for life. This isn't "robbing a gun store" in the middle of a metropolis - that probably still won't happen - it's a world where the bandits and samurai from Seven Samurai team up to loot the village, because all the bags of rice in the province aren't going to offset the kind of wealth that's sitting around in every little settlement.
In most settings bandits are 1 HD warriors, experts, and adepts. You don't screw with town centers in D&D because they screw with you back. As TarkXT and others have noted, the inhabitants of that community can fight back, and even a thorpe of 20 people is probably going to have a few adepts and such in it.
If anything, it's actually reason why D&D towns are relatively safe locations to be compared to out in the wild. Anyone, or anything, that plans to attack a community center has to deal with the fact that they have potion, scrolls, alchemist fires, and so forth on hand. That's a good incentive for most things to stay the hell away from them, instead of just looking at them as a nest of food (human beings are not very high on the food chain in D&D).
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Pathfinder is really, really liberal about the availability of magic items. DM's are also really, really lazy when it comes to getting bowled over by Walmart players who won't do anything until they get their +1 fiery icy freezing weapon that acid upgrade.
I don't really see how "We want to look for a wand of cure light wounds or a scroll of secure shelter" is getting bowled over as a GM. :|
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if the fighter wants to scoff at a +1 dwarven hammer because he wants to be a crit-monkey, that's his problem. He'll take the loss in selling it and finding whatever exotic weapon he's pre-destined himself for, and miss out on the other stuff that hammer could do that I never quite bothered to tell the party about yet.
So basically you waste your time making a neat item because the player's vision of the character did not match the obfuscated crap you were offering? And act like its his problem?
Edit: If I seem hostile it's because I've had this crap pulled at me and other's at my table before. It's not amusing.
This all makes sense.
And it causes me to raise my question again. How is telling a player that he can't have what he wants "keeping it fun"?
I have a large number of adventures, contingents, and storylines all going simultaneously in my world. Most importantly. I have had to deal with the lawyers, the munchkins, the 'broken builds'.
I want the players to be comfortable and not offended when I say "no". If I feel that the item in question would reduce the importance or value of other players in the party, or would significantly trivialize adventures I have planned in the future, then I want to be able to say "No" and for it to not be out of place.
I find a reasonable level of item control to be the easiest way to prevent players from feeling above their challenges. We all have stories of the guy pulling the surprise "CALLEDSHOTTOTHEFACE".
Reduced shop availablity means the challenge is on me to seed things to find within the adventures themselves, which I'm happy to do, and I do crazy stuff that the rules simply can't sustain, and people have fun.
It is the only hedge against Squirt Gun Wars and other GM vs Players arms-races that puts strain on everyone.
I'm also incredibly confused about why your players aren't making Spellcraft checks to /identify/ all the loot with special powers that you're dropping but that's a separate thing.
I do a lot of unconventional things because nothing turns me into a bigger hipster than a Longsword +1, and I like using this to add some extra curiosity to pique player interest in the oddities I lay about.
One was just simply a set of spring-loaded metal (adamantine) wrist claws that gave a sizable bonus to climbing and some minor unarmed-attack melee damage. I'll be honest. He loved those damn things so much he was spider-manning though dungeons and leaping on iron golems trying to rip it apart. This was the ranger, and they weren't even magical!
Another was the 'pet rock' the Rogue adopted because he was convinced it was stalking him.
What are you even talking about?
Now I'm confused, are you trying to troll?
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What are you even talking about?Now I'm confused, are you trying to troll?
Trolling is beneath me. I was mostly questioning because pretty much 100% of everything that you said was false, or seemed to be. Like, what does it have to do with WBL or NPC WBL? Why does being able to buy common items commonly break immersion? It actually is supported by RAW (the contrary is not). I don't really see why this would suddenly cause PCs to suddenly combine together and transform into the MegaMurderHoboZorde and start attacking villages if they wouldn't have already (Ryric pointed out that it's not just magic items but mundane items which are even sillier in some cases, so I mean if they're not burning towns for full plate they probably aren't doing it for a scroll of knock).
Plus all the bitterness. Why so bitter? We're all friends here. Have a cookie. :)
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There's no profit margins in it for a trader. The market supports the Wizard selling directly at 2* craft price. A trader selling for more isn't going to get many buyers. A Wizard selling for less is losing money. The equilibrium price point leaves exactly zero room for expenses on the trader's part, let alone profits.
This is incorrect. Adventurers sell items for 50% of their value. Trader who buy from adventurers will have the same profit margin as wizards, the only difference is that they need to find a buyer. A wizard has little incentive to buy and resell items because they can instead wait for buyers to come to them and make exactly the item required. Buying and reselling items is a patience game that would tie up resources better used on material components to craft items garunteed to sell. Therefore, the used item market opens to traders.
The settlement creation rules just seem to be lacking heavily, and what little is written supports the 'bottomless, infinite, full-spectrum availability' argument.
Once the players ask "Where's the nearest metropolis", you know you're in trouble.
The only solution, as stated by Kestral287...
"Once you control their gold supply you can control their available items..."
...is learning how to properly itemize adventure rewards.
And yes, I got rid of a post where I caught myself having processed the context rules incorrectly.
Some Yokel thought it'd be a good idea to:
1 - Write a blanket 75% chance for any item (not explicitly stating magic) to be available in a settlement in any given week as long as it was below the threshold
2 - Write a completely separate magic item table
3 - File it all under "Magic Item Availability"
Sadly, I hearken back to the AD&D days, and the thought of every level 2 running around with a thousand gold in their pockets makes me just want to sit on my rocking chair and ponder medieval fantasy inflation. Just rock back and forth. People used to have copper coins back then y'know. Back and forth. Where did electrum coins go? Zzzzz.
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And yes, I got rid of a post where I caught myself having processed the context rules incorrectly.
The settlement creation rules just seem to be lacking heavily, and what little is written supports the 'bottomless, infinite, full-spectrum availability' argument.
Here's where we disagree. I don't find them "lacking" in the slightest.
Once the players ask "Where's the nearest metropolis", you know you're in trouble.
The only solution, as stated by Kestral287...
"Once you control their gold supply you can control their available items..."...is learning how to properly itemize adventure rewards.
Here is where the issue lies. For whatever reason (and it may well be a good one!) as a GM you, and some others, feel the need to control the access that the players have above and beyond what is in Core. This could be for any variety of reasons, including players who force the issue (like Trimalchio seems to suffer from, based on her posts), immersion problems, or simply different senses of what is fun.
The fact is, however, the rules are as they are for the general purpose of combined balance, immersion, ease of play, and (limited) expression of expectations.
In the same way we use hit points as a basic normative "baseline" abstraction in playing the game, we use these basic accessibility rules.
There are variant options that allow other playstyles than just the core "AC/saves v. hp" mechanic, and there are variant playstyles supported by this mechanic, indicating that a GM may well deviate from the norms expressed in the rules section.
This isn't a bad thing, but rather it's just down to a method of understanding what's written, and figuring out how you're going to differ from it.
Some Yokel thought it'd be a good idea to:
1 - Write a blanket 75% chance for any item (not explicitly stating magic) to be available in a settlement in any given week as long as it was below the threshold
2 - Write a completely separate magic item table
3 - File it all under "Magic Item Availability"Sadly, I hearken back to the AD&D days, and the thought of every level 2 running around with a thousand gold in their pockets makes me just want to sit on my rocking chair and ponder medieval fantasy inflation. Just rock back and forth. People used to have copper coins back then y'know. Back and forth. Where did electrum coins go? Zzzzz.
And, in fact, it is a good idea to do exactly that. It creates a basic accessibility framework with which GMs can work, and from which players can generally rest assured that their characters will be functional in a game system that notably relies on magic items to make up a large portion of their characters' power.
It's just not always a good thing for all styles. I, for one, never want to go back to the "good old days" of different XP tracks, Thac0, and compatibility charts.
Different styles.
I don't miss THAC0, backwards math is bad.
The problem I most frequently encounter, is right around the 'golden levels' around 8-15, it starts to become possible where it is extraordinarily difficult to keep players in line. It's where a lot of builds fill out, and it's fun to see, but it's also where players start growing a pair to see what they can get away with. I like clever, but I don't like interruptions like murderfacing NPC's on the suspicion (valid or not) that he might be a BBEG at some point. I've since learned to keep new NPC's at least 80' or more away from the party whenever possible, which I find to be a not-good-thing to have learned.
Maybe I'm just still resistant to the new scalings, where there are now suddenly magicmarts in every village stocking CLW potions like redbull, and people walking around with iSwords and eBags, yet is still supposed to be medieval fantasy (admittely, perhaps evolving into more steampunk fantasy, but.. VILLAGE! HAMLET! HORSES!)
Sure, I like to take it down to a bit more 'old school' where I can still make people sweat with giant ants in a ruleset where hydras are considered speed bumps. Oh, and that's a 1 CR difference between the two now. O.o another discussion.
My game world had to adapt from AD&D to 3.X, which was a welcome and easy change. Pathfinder, I've come to realize, has a higher level of octane in the gas tank, and it's making me work harder to maintain pacing where at one point being level 5 meant you were the town badass. A wizard went from "Nerd with stick" to "Professorial Artillery" in that span if he didn't get hit with a stiff breeze.
It's true, PF is higher in some regards, and it could be exactly that causing problems.
The other side, however, is that the idea of "murderfacing NPC's" seems to be a specific learned response - not necessarily from the GM, either. I have seen very few players with that level of paranoia, and all of them that I have seen have gotten the idea to be so from elsewhere (i.e. "not my games") - not because a friend has never turned out to be an enemy, but because it's so rare that it is this way. One was convinced "because it's always them, you know? Like the movies." One was convinced, "Because that's just how DMs are." The crew that first introduced me had the latter, as well as one that was convinced because of the one who insisted that DMs were just that way. So different places, similar conclusion.
What I find is that it's not so much an inherent fault in the rules, as the rules just don't synch up well with a given table's priorities and expectations. Which is fine! That's why Rule 0 is there, after all!
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Healthy suspicion of NPCs is just good business. Why would the DM introduce an NPC that wasn't designed to kill you or take your things? They're all just biding their time until you forget that you don't trust them.
The fine art of conversation is a lost one to many it seems. When given a choice between a business/estate and a magi-*STAB*ROB*RUN*
"I swear he was a vampire."
"I dunno, he only had 5GP on him."
"Did you check his shoes?"
"I cast detect magic on him."
And so ends the life of an old NPC in a rocking chair willing to give the party the time of day, just because he sat in the shade.
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The fine art of conversation is a lost one to many it seems. When given a choice between a business/estate and a magi-*STAB*ROB*RUN*
"I swear he was a vampire."
"I dunno, he only had 5GP on him."
"Did you check his shoes?"
"I cast detect magic on him."And so ends the life of an old NPC in a rocking chair willing to give the party the time of day, just because he sat in the shade.
... :|
I...they...what? (O_o)
I never want to hear anyone on this board ever imply that my group or I am too focused on the combat/loot aspects of this game ever again. (o_o)
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People used to have copper coins back then y'know.
Oh they're still around now. Heheh...
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They make great beds for dragons.
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They make great beds for dragons.
Yes, yes they do! It's one of my favorite uses for copper. A really old dragon is likely going to have a pile of loot that looks awful similar to Hobbit-style piles of coin (it's just made mostly of copper & silver), but those are the two most common forms of coins so when dragons demand tribute from peasants or rob travelers or whatever, they tend to get a lot of them. :D
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The fine art of conversation is a lost one to many it seems. When given a choice between a business/estate and a magi-*STAB*ROB*RUN*
"I swear he was a vampire."
"I dunno, he only had 5GP on him."
"Did you check his shoes?"
"I cast detect magic on him."And so ends the life of an old NPC in a rocking chair willing to give the party the time of day, just because he sat in the shade.
This is where you introduce a concept called consequences.
People stop trying that with me because they quickly find out that it's generally a waste of their time. Bad guys don't stop being bad guys and doing bad guy things. Alignments shift, the law starts to take a keen interest in the group's activities. If they get bad enough rival adventuring groups start coming after them.
Simply put, they shift the dynamic of the game. If they continue having fun than so be it. I've always wanted to run a good game gone evil. If they're not having fun I point out there mistakes and offer a clean slate.
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That's gotta be the best defended place in town. Traps are cheap and the guy running it has a lot of time to do nothing but lay traps.This is pathfinder. Traps may be cheap, but they're also worthless.
I must disagree sir. A lot of really cheap traps are really irritating, especially the resetting magical sort. I use traps in my games a lot (especially in combat encounters).
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From this old post.
G.I.N.A. (CR 3, DC 27 Perception, DC 27 Disable Device, Cost: 8125gp): "Gina" stands for General Incident Neutralizing Agent, and is Valerie's basic security system inside her shop. Gina is a female personality sentient magic item resetting trap with a true seeing visual trigger. Gina is capable of responding to unwelcome intruders verbally and can take verbal orders from Valerie or Siggy. G.I.N.A has a +30 Perception modifier and her 120 ft. radius sensors can detect the entire shop. If the system detects a thief or threat to the security or safety of Valerie, Siggy, the shop, or its legitimate patrons it neutralizes the threat without mercy or prejudice.
Gina has a resetting magic missile spell at 9th caster level that is used against any intruder or thief until they are neutralized. If Gina detects that the magic missile spell is of no use due to either the shield spell or spell resistance, Gina will instead switch to stone call every round which bypasses spell resistance and damage reductions and makes the area difficult terrain (but specifically ignores non-creatures, thus not risking the damaging of merchandise or the shop). Gina also comes equipped with a create water sprinkler system in case of a fire.
F.A.S.S. (CR 3, DC 27 Perception, DC 27 Disable Device, Cost: 4,000 gp): "Fass" stands for Floor Attack and Subdue System. Fass works in tandem with Gina to protect the shop from burglars, robbers, or hostile intruders. Fass is actually the very floor of the shop and is a resetting intelligent male personality trap. He can detect anything within 60 ft. of the floor through sight and sound (which includes more or less the entire shop). Hiding from Fass is nearly impossible (there is virtually no way to find cover or concealment vs the floor). If a threat is detected, Fass strikes the intruder with repeated frigid touch spells (+10 melee touch to hit). Frass can only target one intruder at a time, but is merciless in his usage of frigid touch until the culprit surrenders or stops moving.
Fass, like Gina, responds to the verbal commands of Valerie or Siggy.
A.L.D.A (CR 2, DC 26 Perception, DC 26 Disable Device, Cost: 1,500 gp): "Alda" stands for Automatic Lock Down Assistant. Alda is a security measure to ensure that would be thieves or vandals do not escape the ravages of the security system. Alda is a female personality intelligent resetting trap with a 120 ft. sight and sound range of sensors. If either Gina or Fass become active, or upon request of Valerie or Siggy, Alda proceeds to cast hold portal every round on each exit to lock the doors and windows and add +5 to the break or unstuck DC. Since she casts it each round, it makes it very difficult for a would be lockpicker to get out, as the thief must spend his entire round picking the lock and then opening the door, resulting in the trap shutting and locking the door again immediately.
Alda, like Fass and Gina respond to the verbal commands of Valerie or Siggy.
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Monsters that aren't fun for their CR: Ashiel's Angry Shopkeeper.
That's nasty. The Frigid Touch + Hold Portal combination is particular dirty.
I'm curious Ashiel, because you're probably better at running these kinds of numbers than I am: how long would it take Valerie to afford each of those traps?
Depends on how many magic items she sold and how quickly. The entirety of the traps could be constructed on 13,625 gp, or about 3 +2 stat items and a few elixirs.
She probably didn't create them all at the same time, and it's possible to upgrade magic items by expending the difference in their costs, so when she was just a little shopkeeper with nothing very noteworthy other than some elixirs, feather tokens, and similar things (stuff worth less than most armor) her defenses could be less impressive (lower caster levels, less accurate sensory options, etc).
The above security systems assume that Valerie has been trading magic items for quite a while and creates high profile items (she can craft up to most CL 17th wondrous items assuming she has to ignore a requirement by taking 10).
It would take her roughly 14 days to create the traps from scratch though.
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That's nasty. The Frigid Touch + Hold Portal combination is particular dirty.
Some traps are really heinous in adventures. I once had a dungeon which had areas that used inflict spells on creatures walking around on them. Naturally the dungeon was populated with undead (a similar trap was present in a game I was running a while back, wherein a vampire lord's room was trapped with negative energy, and he was intended to flee into the room for his final stand, but he didn't make it there because the party got him cornered and used a sunray item that one of the PCs created to vaporize him). In the lord's mansion was also a hallway that locked the doors down and the floor turned into needles like a spike growth spell, while his vampire fledglings happily zipped about on the walls pestering the party.
I don't know why my players have been so destraught that I've had so little time for GMing lately (short handed at my dayjob means I'm working a lot more right now). I guess they're just masochistic. :P
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You'd first have to tell me what was inconsistent about it.
LR Potions made by paladins are 50 gp.
LR potions made by most other casters are 300 gp.
Not all LR Potions are 50 gp.
In fact, the vast majority of them probably are not 50 gp, for (Reasons followed).==Aelryinth
Paladin potions are cheaper. By the rules that makes them more frequently available. That's just the way the world works. It might be due to their being more paladins than clerics (since paladins are an intuitive class and require less overall training than clerics, based on the age rules), or it might be that Paladins are plenty happy with providing people the spell slots to make 'em cheaper.
Who knows? What we have are the rules and the rules are clear. House rule as you like, but as is, you can find potions of lesser restoration in thorpes. Not like that's really a problem.
That's nasty. The Frigid Touch + Hold Portal combination is particular dirty.Some traps are really heinous in adventures. I once had a dungeon which had areas that used inflict spells on creatures walking around on them. Naturally the dungeon was populated with undead (a similar trap was present in a game I was running a while back, wherein a vampire lord's room was trapped with negative energy, and he was intended to flee into the room for his final stand, but he didn't make it there because the party got him cornered and used a sunray item that one of the PCs created to vaporize him). In the lord's mansion was also a hallway that locked the doors down and the floor turned into needles like a spike growth spell, while his vampire fledglings happily zipped about on the walls pestering the party.
I don't know why my players have been so destraught that I've had so little time for GMing lately (short handed at my dayjob means I'm working a lot more right now). I guess they're just masochistic. :P
Seems it might be more profitable to steal the traps then disarm them (get EXP for overcoming them either way). Need crowbars to pry the floors and figure out where the magical energies were anchored to safely steal the trap without breaking it.
Because a trap that can be reused is a nice little weapon/resource. Granted, the Inflict traps are better if you are black blood oracle or dhampir (keep it on you and you are healed repeatedly).
What are you even talking about?Now I'm confused, are you trying to troll?
Trolling is beneath me. I was mostly questioning because pretty much 100% of everything that you said was false, or seemed to be. Like, what does it have to do with WBL or NPC WBL? Why does being able to buy common items commonly break immersion? It actually is supported by RAW (the contrary is not). I don't really see why this would suddenly cause PCs to suddenly combine together and transform into the MegaMurderHoboZorde and start attacking villages if they wouldn't have already (Ryric pointed out that it's not just magic items but mundane items which are even sillier in some cases, so I mean if they're not burning towns for full plate they probably aren't doing it for a scroll of knock).
Plus all the bitterness. Why so bitter? We're all friends here. Have a cookie. :)
No, it is not supported by RAW, and I find it dishonest to say otherwise. It says very explicitly they are guidelines, that ideally GMs would stat out towns as needed, that the 75% rule is a convenience and it is very much a stretch to suggest the 75% rule applies to caster level and to charges.
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Why does being able to buy common items commonly break immersion? It actually is supported by RAW (the contrary is not). I don't really see why this would suddenly cause PCs to suddenly combine together and transform into the MegaMurderHoboZorde and start attacking villages if they wouldn't have already (Ryric pointed out that it's not just magic items but mundane items which are even sillier in some cases, so I mean if they're not burning towns for full plate they probably aren't doing it for a scroll of knock).
No, it is not supported by RAW, and I find it dishonest to say otherwise. It says very explicitly they are guidelines, that ideally GMs would stat out towns as needed, that the 75% rule is a convenience and it is very much a stretch to suggest the 75% rule applies to caster level and to charges.
It is literally supported by RAW. The Rules, you know, As they are Written have a 75% chance. Whether they are guidelines or not (which they are) is irrelevant to the fact that the written rules indicate that barring GM fiat, there is a reasonable expectation in most circumstances to find things of a certain value or lower at 75%.
This is not dishonest.
Stating that there is no written rules backing up what is actually written within the rules is... bizarre, to say the least.
Look, I'm sorry that your players have PCs that are incredible jerks to the world around them. That's gotta be rough as a GM. It is for situations exactly like your own that the 75% is noted as something variable (along with the option for a GM to change anything for the sake of their campaign, as also noted in the RAW). That's why the variance exists - to give GMs written permission to deviate from the rest of thing that are written.
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No, it is not supported by RAW, and I find it dishonest to say otherwise. It says very explicitly they are guidelines, that ideally GMs would stat out towns as needed, that the 75% rule is a convenience and it is very much a stretch to suggest the 75% rule applies to caster level and to charges.
The best way to handle a settlement in your game, of course, is to plan it out, placing every shop and every home, naming every NPC, and mapping every building. Yet settlements are the most complicated locations you're likely to ever feature in your game, and the prospect of fully detailing one is daunting, especially if your PCs are likely to visit multiple settlements.Presented below are basic rules for a more streamlined method of handling settlements in your game. Essentially, these rules treat settlements almost as characters of their own, complete with stat blocks. Using these rules, you can generate the vital data for a settlement quickly and efficiently, and with this data you can handle the majority of your players' interactions with the settlement.
it is not supported by RAW, and I find it dishonest to say otherwise
dishonest
... I would be offended that you had the stones, to try to maintain balance atop that very unstable and rickety high-horse, you've constructed for yourself, but I'm too busy laughing incredulously at the ridiculousness of your assertions.
-Nearyn
I think the underlying problem here is that the 75% stuff is absurd. That's the point. And it has nothing to do with magic items, or partially charged magic items. It is absurd for normal gear too.
The very idea that I can buy a war galley in Mongolia because I rolled 75% or less is absurd.
With the 75% rules, you can find a +2 longsword in some town in Varisia exactly with the same difficulty that you'll find a +1 furyborn Shang gou, a +1 chaotic outsider bane terbutje, a +1 spell storing ogre hook, a +1 mimetic sharpened sword scabbard or a +1 thawing hunga munga.
You could go to a thorpe in the middle of the North Pole, and ask for a +1 darkwood shield. You could buy stone plate armor in a sand desert. You can buy a +1 Dwarven Axe in a nation of islationist elves. Did you roll 75% or less? Then you buy it.
Paladin potions are cheaper. By the rules that makes them more frequently available.
No, that's not true. By the rules, that makes them more desirable, which is different. Paladins have an aligment restriction, and little incentive to take Brew Potion, while Alchemists get it for free, so the number of available paladin potion makers is way lower than the rest of potion makers combined, by far.
Paladin made potions *exist*. That doesn't mean they are *common*
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Whether it is a problem or not is not the point of contention.
It is, in fact, RAW. That is what the rules say. That's all that's being said.
I think the underlying problem here is that the 75% stuff is absurd. That's the point. And it has nothing to do with magic items, or partially charged magic items. It is absurd for normal gear too.
It's true, it can get pretty crazy!
The very idea that I can buy a war galley in Mongolia because I rolled 75% or less is absurd.
... where, in Mongolia, is a settlement with a value greater than a metropolis?
With the 75% rules, you can find a +2 longsword in some town in Varisia exactly with the same difficulty that you'll find a +1 furyborn lungchuan tamo, a +1 chaotic outsider bane terbutje, a +1 spell storing ogre hook, a +1 mimetic sharpened sword scabbard or a +1 thawing hunga munga.
Yes: none at all (towns are too small, as the base limit is 2k for large towns, and each of those is 4k+weapon cost.)
You could go to a thorpe in the middle of the North Pole, and ask for a +1 darkwood shield.
Woah, that's way over the limit of a thorp! Thorps're 50 gold for the 75% rule.
You could buy stone plate armor in a sand desert.
Nifty how artwork travels!
You can buy a +1 Dwarven Axe in a nation of islationist elves.
Yeah, it's probably been there for ages, ever since those dwarves that came through died.
Did you roll 75% or less? Then you buy it.
Within the base limit of the community.
EDIT: corrected tags
Whether it is a problem or not is not the point of contention.
It is, in fact, RAW. That is what the rules say. That's all that's being said.
I agree that it's RAW. By RAW, the best way to deal with the fatigue produced by sleeping in armor, is choosing not to sleep. Ever. Common sense should apply, though.
I don't think there's a lot of common sense in "there's not a single paladin in the world who would brew potions to help people with their ailments, ever", and I don't think there's a lot of common sense in "there's a lvl 5 paladin with brew potion feat in every town, but only if I ask, and the local shop always have a wand with exactly the number of charges of lesser restoration that our group need, but no more, and that's true for any other spell as well".
The whole magic item stuff is a mess in the game. Buying, selling, and crafting rules, all of them are a mess.
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No, it is not supported by RAW
Except it is. That's what everyone is saying.
No one is saying that bargain bin magic items of legend and the rest of the easy-magic of PF is a perfect simulation of heroic fantasy.
If you follow the rules to the letter, everything is stupid. I would argue that almost no one regularly plays PF purely RAW. But that is what the rules say, in black and white. The rules also say you can change whatever you want as the DM, but these are the default rules.