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In August 2014, at Gencon, the ACG was introduced.
On August 17th, this post asked the question about beneficial hexes.
On October 10th, was the last FAQ Update to the ACG.
Per the Resources page, there is no Errata as of yet for the ACG.
James Jacobs said it is not the intent of the spell, but to each their own if playing homegames.
Here.
Therefore, I am assuming, this spell works as posed.
Now the question... Is this overpowered?
[Please use a separate thread for RAW vs. RAI]
Some things to consider:
Wand of Cure Light Wounds @ 1st heals 1d8+1 for 15gp, or 2.73gp per hp
Wand of Infernal Healing @ 1st heals 10 for 15gp, or 1.5gp per hp
Wand of Hex Vulnerability @ 1st & Witch 1 w/healing hex heals 1d8+1 for 15gp, or 2.73gp per hp
Wand of Hex Vulnerability @ 1st & Witch 5 w/healing hex heals 2d8+5 for 15gp, or 1.07gp per hp
Wand of Hex Vulnerability @ 1st & Witch 20 w/major healing hex heals 4d8+20 for 15gp, or 0.39gp per hp
Note: the more healing, the more wasted by topping off.
Also, recall that while caster at higher levels allow more healing, they only allow it on the single target. So if your whole party needs healing, you need to use one spell per member you want extra healing for.
I do agree that you can heal quite a lot at mid levels and up, but only to a single character, and only at an out-of-combat acceptable speed. In combat, your healing cannot keep up to the damage taken.
Thoughts?
/caveh
it is perfectly fine and while unintended, isn't really overpowered. in fact, it evokes a trick in Etrian Odyssey where you use a hexxer to blanket lower the magic resistance of your party so you can milk more healing for each hex on each of your enemies that greatly increased survivability if you knew how and when to use it. the idea required you to lower magic resistance, then drop Aoe hexes on your enemies, which ate up lots of mana, but allowed you to survive glass cannon type FOEs
i liked something similar to the Etrian odyssey Hexxer vulnerability healing trick and while this isn't entirely the same on mechanics, it is similar in flavor and yet, has its appeal.
it is perfectly fine and while unintended, isn't really overpowered. in fact, it evokes a trick in Etrian Odyssey where you use a hexxer to blanket lower the magic resistance of your party so you can milk more healing for each hex on each of your enemies that greatly increased survivability if you knew how and when to use it. the idea required you to lower magic resistance, then drop Aoe hexes on your enemies, which ate up lots of mana, but allowed you to survive glass cannon type FOEs
Someone else that plays ETRIAN ODYSSEY!!!
Awesome!!!
I also don't think it's overpowered. I think it's been mentioned it's not RAI, but overall...it's more like other things that have already been brought up in regards to previous spells.
i started with Etrian Odyssey IV and played a bit of the Millenium Girl on my 3DS, because the older titles are hard to find, so i have to settle for the untold versions. thing is, i think the untold versions should have fused the classic and story modes into one fused mode to save memory space and because of that, save room for a second or third save profile.
Wand of Hex Vulnerability @ 1st & Witch 1 w/healing hex heals 1d8+1 for 15gp, or 2.73gp per hp
Wand of Hex Vulnerability @ 1st & Witch 5 w/healing hex heals 2d8+5 for 15gp, or 1.07gp per hp
Wand of Hex Vulnerability @ 1st & Witch 20 w/major healing hex heals 4d8+20 for 15gp, or 0.39gp per hp
It should be noted that a caster level 1 wand of hex vulnerability only lasts 1 round. The spell will wear off before you can healing hex them through this wand. Higher caster level wands of course more then make up for this....
....However caster levels for wands in PFS are restricted to minimum possible caster level so barring a chronicle sheet with a CL2+ wand that argument is kinda null. I have read the idea of a Familiar holding the charge on a hex to deliver the same turn you use the wand. I'm not sure that even happens though.
Deliver Touch Spells (Su)If a witch is 3rd level or higher, her familiar can deliver touch spells or hexes for her. If the witch and the familiar are in contact at the time the witch casts a touch spell, she can designate her familiar as the “toucher.” The familiar can then deliver the touch spell just as the witch would. As usual, if the witch casts another spell before the touch is delivered, the touch spell dissipates. If the witch activates a hex, her familiar can be used to make the touch. She does not have to be in contact with the familiar to use this ability.
The ability lists designating the familiar as the toucher for a spell separately and with different language from how delivering hex touches works. It looks to me that Deliver Touch Spells for witches basically gives the witch and their familiar two separate but similar abilities.
As for home...
I'm hoping quite frankly that Hex Vulnerability's inability to work for its caster at 1st level is an oversight, and that the spell is actually supposed to last until the end of your next turn.
Also, what is stopping the witch from handing off the wand to another person (might require UMD) and then getting 2 healing shots off. One from you, another from Familiar?
The spell only works on your hexes, so if someone else uses the wand it would only apply to their hexes not your's.
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It's not as if there aren't lots of ways to get nigh infinite healing by that level anyway. For 5000 gold your party can pass a pair of Boots of the Earth around until everyone is topped off during any break in action.
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I can't imagine finding this overpowered in the slightest. Like the delicate game balance required to have something like this break a game is beyond my understanding.
Also on EO, I've been playing Persona Q, which is basically EO, and it's been pretty fun.
Personally I love this for hex crafter magus, since at worst (no wands), it gives them an option to heal HP for a far more efficient rate than most curing spells.
My thinking is. Why bother with wands? HEx vulnerability is a first level spell that lasts rounds per level. Just memorize it.
It's still an amazingly overlooked combo.
It would be nice if the healing hex worked more times per day as you level up without needing these sorts of tricks. Gaining cheaper access to out of combat healing might actually be the opposite of overpowered in some ways though since it would encourage the PCs to push onward for longer and take on additional encounters with fewer per day powers. When the Fighter has full HP and the Witch is low on spells it might be time for the monsters to have a little fun.
I'd kind of like to see a spell which lets you eat coins to heal hit point damage. Maybe there could be a higher level version where you eat gems cure ability damage (Xorn's Blessing?)
I own EO 1-3 but because I do not have 3DS no EO4 for me :(
Note, I haven't finished EO1-3, because I want to transfer my save data from 1 to 2 and the final boss is kicking my but and power leveling is lame.
I own EO 1-3 but because I do not have 3DS no EO4 for me :(
Note, I haven't finished EO1-3, because I want to transfer my save data from 1 to 2 and the final boss is kicking my but and power leveling is lame.
leveling in any Etrian Odyssey game is slow, unless you are high enough level to grind Weaker FOEs to make it easier, issue is, foes eat lots of Prana and Revival Nectars if you don't have the proper party to take them down. but in EO4, Arcanists which are the updated hexers, are a broken subclass for Nightseekers (essentially dual wielding assassins) and a Landschnect built around the elemental links will tear stuff up as long as you guarantee enough attacks to trigger the links
Let's get back on topic, and bump it up a notch.
As mentioned, a Pearl of Power at 1,000gp is good for an extra cast per day. It still requires a spell slot, which you might want for other spells. Additionally, a wand can be spammed when needed.
Let's assume a CL1 cast lets you use your hex on the next round.
Does a higher level caster using this spell from a slot make it OP?
CL1 caster: 1d8+1 per hex, avg 5.5hp, for 1 round = 5.5hp healed (11 if pre loading the familiar)
CL5 caster: 2d8+5 per hex, avg 14hp, for 5 rounds = 70hp healed (84 if pre loading the familiar)
CL10 caster: 3d8+10 per major hex, avg 23.5hp, for 10 rounds = 235hp healed (258.5 if pre loading the familiar)
CL20 caster: 4d8+20 per major hex, avg 38hp, for 20 rounds = 760hp healed (798 if pre loading the familiar)
Because the spell targets a single creature, any healing beyond what that single creature needs is wasted.
With this, it is clear to me that a cast spell can bring up a creature from negative to max health with a single cast and many rounds out of combat. Far more potent than a CL1 cast.
Is this use now OP?
/cevah
Rather than a PoP, why not use a staff? 400gp for a 1st level staff that scales with CL. You could have 2 for less than the price of a single PoP. Granted, they replenish more slowly, but (if you are planning to use the PoP exclusively for this spell) they will have the utility of 20 pearls in any single day.
Particularly for PFS when you can recharge the item in down time this seems like a no-brainer.
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How is healing OP?
Rather than a PoP, why not use a staff? 400gp for a 1st level staff that scales with CL. You could have 2 for less than the price of a single PoP. Granted, they replenish more slowly, but (if you are planning to use the PoP exclusively for this spell) they will have the utility of 20 pearls in any single day.
Particularly for PFS when you can recharge the item in down time this seems like a no-brainer.
400gp is the crafting multiplier, not the purchase price.
400gp * CL8 minimum * 2 = 6,400 gp minimum price staff.
I got a staff w/CLW. :-)
While you can spam it a bit, it takes a long time to refill. So I see it closer to a Pearl of Power in power. The staff lets you bank ten spells, but does not increase the total number spells per day. A PoP lets you cast more spells per day. You can buy 6 Pearls of Power (1st) for less than SL 1 staff. The benefit of the staff is in spell selection, not spells per day. You can craft a Pearl of Power starting at 3rd rather than 11th for a staff.
In a campaign with a lot of downtime, this is less of an issue, as you have the time to refill the staff. I am in Skulls & Shackles, with a staff for some time. It is not as good as I thought it would be.
/cevah
How is healing OP?
A 20th level witch healing about 800hp for the price of a 1st level spell. This could be considered OP.
Do you see it as OP?
/cevah
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How is healing OP?A 20th level witch healing about 800hp for the price of a 1st level spell. This could be considered OP.
Do you see it as OP?
/cevah
At 20th level? No, no I do not.
At 20th level? No, no I do not.How is healing OP?A 20th level witch healing about 800hp for the price of a 1st level spell. This could be considered OP.
Do you see it as OP?
/cevah
I agree with DS, honestly. A 17th level Summoner with a ring of agathion summoning can heal for an average of almost 3 times that amount in a much shorter time, and still have 1d3+1 Leonals to cast all sorts of other fun things (at will fireballs, 3 walls of force per leonal, etc). And that's for ~1/14th of one class ability.
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How is healing OP?A 20th level witch healing about 800hp for the price of a 1st level spell. This could be considered OP.
Do you see it as OP?
/cevah
No, it is not over powered. It is an interesting combination of class abilities and a spell. A 20th caster is near god like in their abilities, anyway.
A 20th witch would still have to spend 20 rounds (standard actions) to heal this much damage. Not very helpful in combat and outside of combat it can only be used 4 to 6 times with spell slots and as many PoP as they want to waste money on. I am sure there are much better items for this level character.
If you do feel it is over powered, house rule it.
I did the math, I was overestimating how much MORE healing you would get but it's also in just over half the time
17th level summoner, ring of agathion summoning (leonal as SM8)
SM9
1d3+1 Leonals (avg 3)
3 heals 300hp
9 cure critical 4d8+14 avg 32*9 288
21 Lay on Hands 7d6 avg 24.5*21 514.5
1102.5 hp healed in 11 rounds
Then there's still the Leonals themselves running around for a little under 16 more minutes.
Out-of-combat healing is not OP.
For one thing, you have to burn a hex, which potentially prevents you from taking something ACTUALLY OP like Slumber. Secondly, all it really does is save you gp for CLW wands, maybe a few thousand gp over the course of an entire campaign. And requires you to use spell slots, even if they are 1st level.
It's a clever money-saving trick if you have spare hexes to sell, but not game-breaking in any way.
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Even if the hex trick might be more RAW than RAI I'd be inclined to let it slide as a DM since gathering gold for the "Wand Tax" is a tiresome and mostly thankless task which usually ends up being my job as a player, like, "Come on, guys, everybody needs to split the cost of a few wands..." On the other hand, if word of this trick got out it seems like a representative of the highly profitable wand crafter's guild might try to have witchcraft declared illegal along with the diabolism which created Infernal Healing.
Now I'm imagining a healing wand ad...
"Hi, this is Lord Robilar, and I'd like to tell you about HealingWands.Com. I've lost many hit points over the years, and I sure wish we had wands of Cure Light Wounds back in 1st Edition. Relying on a Witch's Hex for healing is a Gambit that even I wouldn't make though. Why trust a Witch who might hex you into a toad or spend a fortune on potions when you can use the same safe, effective, and affordable healing option so many other PCs have been using since 3rd Edition? Wands of Cure Light Wounds are the go to healing option for serious adventures, and you can heal even faster with wands of Cure Moderate Wounds. Why sit around healing 1d8+1 per round when you can get back in the dungeon in half the time? Visit us on the multiverse wide web at HealingWands.Com, and remember to click the link at the bottom for a free chance to win the Sword of Kas - HealingWands.Com - for all your out of combat healing needs!"
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I ran some numbers on it, it should stay somewhat behind a cleric who channels.
A typical scenario would be to have atleast 3 players injured from a battle.
The hex heals 1d8+CL, and upgrades to 2d8+CL from level 5.
The spell works from lvl2, since the duration is 1round/level.
This is how much EXTRA the spell adds (excessive healing is common though).
8 Random levels:
Lvl2: (1d8+2)=6,5HP
Lvl3: (1d8+3)x2=15HP
Lvl4: (1d8+4)x3=25,5HP
Lvl5: (2d8+5)x4=56HP
Lvl7: (2d8+7)x6=96HP
Lvl10: (2d8+10)x9=171HP
Lvl13: (2d8+10)x12=228HP
Lvl16: (2d8+10)x15=285HP
Lvl20: (2d8+10)x19=361HP
The potential of this healing depends on how many of your spells you will denote to this healing strategy. You can heal 110% of any martials health from level 5. But you will most likely need another method if you only need to heal allies 10 HP once you've passed 5th level. At level 20, you could restore any ally to full health about 7 times each day.
Having atleast two uses of this spell seems to be a good idea. Wands would be cool and all but those needs a scaling CL to keep climbing in effectiveness as shown above. Having atleast 2 spells prepared would be wise and enough to head into a second encounter.
For reference: (assuming Cha Mod=+2, rising to +3 before lvl10 and +4 before 20)
A cleric heals:
Lvl1: (1d6)x(3+Cha)= approximately 17,5HP to on average 3 effective allies = 52,5HP /day
Lvl3: (2d6)x(3+Cha)= approximately 35HP, resulting in healing the party about: 105HP
Lvl10: (5d6)x(3+Cha)= approximately 105HP, healing the party ATLEAST: 315HP
Lvl20: (10d6)x(3+Cha)= approximately 245HP, healing the party ATLEAST: 765HP
Before level 5, The cleric is the champion! After level 10, the Witch gains the upperhand (assuming no mounts and such needs healing).
The Witch has some astounding healing possibilities with seven 1st level spell slots at 20th level. Fully recovering her allies 7 times per day for a total of: 2527HP (alot excessive healing).
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It's certainly not overpowered, It's better value healing than CLW, but that's not really a great measuring stick.
That said, it has been explicitly stated that the intent of Hex Vulnerability is not to make it so that you can use your hexes on your allies over and over again, so I wouldn't allow it in my game.
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I ran some numbers on it, it should stay somewhat behind a cleric who channels.
A typical scenario would be to have atleast 3 players injured from a battle.
The hex heals 1d8+CL, and upgrades to 2d8+CL from level 5.The spell works from lvl2, since the duration is 1round/level.
Let your familiar hold a hex. This makes it usable at 1st.
This is how much EXTRA the spell adds (excessive healing is common though).
8 Random levels:
Lvl2: (1d8+2)=6,5HP
Lvl3: (1d8+3)x2=15HP
Lvl4: (1d8+4)x3=25,5HP
Lvl5: (2d8+5)x4=56HP
Lvl7: (2d8+7)x6=96HP
The following are incorrect, since you get 3d8+lvl from 10-14 and 4d8+lvl from 15-20.
Lvl10: (2d8+10)x9=171HP
Lvl13: (2d8+10)x12=228HP
Lvl16: (2d8+10)x15=285HP
Lvl20: (2d8+10)x19=361HP
Check your math. I count 9 misc levels. :-)
The potential of this healing depends on how many of your spells you will denote to this healing strategy. You can heal 110% of any martials health from level 5. But you will most likely need another method if you only need to heal allies 10 HP once you've passed 5th level. At level 20, you could restore any ally to full health about 7 times each day.
Having atleast two uses of this spell seems to be a good idea. Wands would be cool and all but those needs a scaling CL to keep climbing in effectiveness as shown above. Having atleast 2 spells prepared would be wise and enough to head into a second encounter.For reference: (assuming Cha Mod=+2, rising to +3 before lvl10 and +4 before 20)
A cleric heals:
Lvl1: (1d6)x(3+Cha)= approximately 17,5HP to on average 3 effective allies = 52,5HP /day
Lvl3: (2d6)x(3+Cha)= approximately 35HP, resulting in healing the party about: 105HP
Lvl10: (5d6)x(3+Cha)= approximately 105HP, healing the party ATLEAST: 315HP
Lvl20: (10d6)x(3+Cha)= approximately 245HP, healing the party ATLEAST: 765HPBefore level 5, The cleric is the champion! After level 10, the Witch gains the upperhand (assuming no mounts and such needs healing).
The Witch has some astounding healing possibilities with seven 1st level spell slots at 20th level. Fully recovering her allies 7 times per day for a total of: 2527HP (alot excessive healing).
I am not so sure you cannot use a CL 1 spell once. You can definitely load up your familiar before casting the spell.
/cevah
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I am pretty certain that split hex and wand of abrupt hexes factors into this at some point past tenth level, elsewise, the player has overlooked some pretty important options.
Split hex means you'll be getting two targets at a time usually. And a wand of abrupt hexes means you can drop two castings of hex vulnerability and heal each round right from the start of combat.
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I am pretty certain that split hex and wand of abrupt hexes factors into this at some point past tenth level, elsewise, the player has overlooked some pretty important options.
Split hex means you'll be getting two targets at a time usually. And a wand of abrupt hexes means you can drop two castings of hex vulnerability and heal each round right from the start of combat.
Good point.
Split Hex: at 10th+ double healing from Healing Hex [(2d8+10)*2 =38] vs. one use of Major Healing [(3d8+lvl) or (4d8+lvl)].10: 38 vs (3d8+10) = 23.5
11: 38 vs (3d8+11) = 24.5
12: 38 vs (3d8+12) = 25.5
13: 38 vs (3d8+13) = 26.5
14: 38 vs (3d8+14) = 27.5
15: 38 vs (4d8+15) = 33
16: 38 vs (4d8+16) = 34
17: 38 vs (4d8+17) = 35
18: 38 vs (4d8+18) = 36
19: 38 vs (4d8+19) = 37
20: 38 vs (4d8+20) = 38
Split Major Hex: at 18th+ double healing from Major Healing Hex.
18: 72
19: 74
20: 76
Rod of Abrupt Hexes: Gets a quicked regular hex 3/day/rod.
This can be applied with Split Hex allowing more goodness.
Edit:
Rod of Potent Hexes double healing of the Healing Hex.
Rod of Voracious Hexes gives you an additional target like Split Hex. Maybe it can be combined with Split Hex?
/cevah
that first level spell only works on one character, what character has 800 hp?How is healing OP?A 20th level witch healing about 800hp for the price of a 1st level spell. This could be considered OP.
Do you see it as OP?
/cevah
Thought about that a bit tonight. Best I could come up with is a Barbarian (d12) with Toughness, and FCB; start with 20 con, +5 with level ups, +5 by wishes, and +6 by stat belt. Total 36 con -> +13hp/die. Average hp at level 20 = 434hp. If using best of two d12 for hp, then it is 472hp. Add in dieing but not deat at -35hp, gives 507hp range. So yeah. No character I can think of has that much HP.
/cevah
that first level spell only works on one character, what character has 800 hp?How is healing OP?A 20th level witch healing about 800hp for the price of a 1st level spell. This could be considered OP.
Do you see it as OP?
/cevah
Thought about that a bit tonight. Best I could come up with is a Barbarian (d12) with Toughness, and FCB; start with 20 con, +5 with level ups, +5 by wishes, and +6 by stat belt. Total 36 con -> +13hp/die. Average hp at level 20 = 434hp. If using best of two d12 for hp, then it is 472hp. Add in dieing but not deat at -35hp, gives 507hp range. So yeah. No character I can think of has that much HP.
/cevah
Share Healing Teamwork feat. 800hp turns into 400hp to PC and 400 to animal companion, eidolon, familiar, or special mount. Take that barbarian a Mad Dog and there isn't much wasted healing.
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Share Healing Teamwork feat. 800hp turns into 400hp to PC and 400 to animal companion, eidolon, familiar, or special mount.Share Healing only affect healing from spells, this is healing from a Hex.
The witch/shaman could use Improved Shared Spells on herself to split the Hex Vulnerability with her familiar, though.
Life Link Oracle is also an obvious way to spread the love. Too bad the shaman version is currently gimpy. :(
Spirit Guide Dual-Cursed Oracle? Probably not PFS legal as I think both modify the class skills you get from revelation (even though one changes and the other replaces, they're not both changing or both replacing) and they both alter when you get revelations though they don't both alter the "revelations" class feature - DCO gets +1 revelation at 5 and 13, Spirit Guide loses revelation at 3, 7, 15.
Getting the wandering hex gives you a hex, and by extension qualifies you to take extra hex, but that's shaky as well. I'm going to try it in my friend's Reign of Winter game (I'm already a blackened spirit guide (lore) oracle and he's approved the murky wording on Arcane Enlightenment, I think this may fly as well especially since we have no healer).
Can shaman and with familiars 'touch' the intended person for the heal hex described? I know they can use the spells but does that include hexes?
It's worth noting (since this thread has come back up) that Hex Vulnerability no longer works with Healing Hex or other beneficial hexes.
thanks Claxon
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It's worth noting (since this thread has come back up) that Hex Vulnerability no longer works with Healing Hex or other beneficial hexes.
That explains it. I wasn't aware of the (apparently) pre-errata'd version as I've never played a witch and was very confused how healing hex was considered a "harmful hex" for this to work.
Yeah, it was errata'd a while ago because of this abuse along with abusing the Fortune hex.