Free College in USA - Take 2


Off-Topic Discussions

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meatrace wrote:
houstonderek wrote:
meatrace wrote:

Or just make college free here to citizens and aliens alike, then you'll massively brain drain the rest of the world as all the smart folks come here.

Germany did something similar recently and I'm sure they're working the same strategy.

Germany is also very selective about who they admit into a regular university type setting. They don't let just anybody get free college. If you don't have the academic chops you don't get to go. Period. No remedial classes for illiterates in German universities. That seems to be an American thing exclusively.

Any halfway-decent school in the US is just as selective.

I mean, sure, any old boob can get into University of Nebraska at Bumf$%#, but you'll probably get about the same level of education as a community college.

I've never heard of classes for illiterates at university though, so you'll have to elucidate me.

I've heard of them. Some colleges do remedial HS stuff. They just count towards certificates and not degrees.


meatrace wrote:
houstonderek wrote:
meatrace wrote:

Or just make college free here to citizens and aliens alike, then you'll massively brain drain the rest of the world as all the smart folks come here.

Germany did something similar recently and I'm sure they're working the same strategy.

Germany is also very selective about who they admit into a regular university type setting. They don't let just anybody get free college. If you don't have the academic chops you don't get to go. Period. No remedial classes for illiterates in German universities. That seems to be an American thing exclusively.

Any halfway-decent school in the US is just as selective.

I mean, sure, any old boob can get into University of Nebraska at Bumf~#+, but you'll probably get about the same level of education as a community college.

I've never heard of classes for illiterates at university though, so you'll have to elucidate me.

I think you are confusing "decent school" with "prestigious school."

On a side note, between the courses that I have taken at Tarrant County College, University of North Texas, TCU, and Rice, the adjunct lecturers at TCC that actually work in their fields and teach at the community college at night were BY FAR the most rigorous/demanding AND most informative instructors.


meatrace wrote:
Krensky wrote:

Per his war stories, when asked why you can't divide a number by zero the response he got from someone applying to teach college mathematics was "Because it would anger the Math Gods." Not "it's undefined", not "you can't take X things and divide them into no piles". "Anger the Math Gods".

I'm amazed he doesn't drink more.

To be fair, that's what my friend tells his students, and he teaches AP Calc. Math teacher humor is an acquired taste.

Yeah, to me that sounds like the standard response you would get from any math major I knew in college. Just because the guy has a sense of humor and would rather show that than answer a question that is quite frankly beneath someone applying to teach math, does not mean he is dumb.


Caineach wrote:
meatrace wrote:
houstonderek wrote:


Germany is also very selective about who they admit into a regular university type setting. They don't let just anybody get free college. If you don't have the academic chops you don't get to go. Period. No remedial classes for illiterates in German universities. That seems to be an American thing exclusively.
I've never heard of classes for illiterates at university though, so you'll have to elucidate me.
I've heard of them. Some colleges do remedial HS stuff. They just count towards certificates and not degrees.

Remedial HS classes are common. I'm not sure they go as far as "illiterates" though.

There's a long way between not quite ready for college English classes and "Can't read".


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thejeff wrote:

.

There's a long way between not quite ready for college English classes and "Can't read".

What fancy pants colleges are YOU getting into? :)


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Pfft. I've been posting about The Wire my entire time here. Came up in the first politroll conversation I ever entered, back with Comrade Derek back in '0whatever.

As for Wire, the band, c'mon, Comrade Meatrace. I've got ten years working in used record stores under my belt.

I'm cooler than all of you!


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Coriat wrote:

You'd probably like a quote from '56:

Wiki wrote:
As the Ideal-X left the Port of Newark, Freddy Fields, a top official of the International Longshoremen's Association, was asked what he thought of the newly fitted container ship. Fields replied, "I’d like to sink that son of a b$~@@."

Vive le General Ludd!


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Comrade Anklebiter wrote:

Pfft. I've been posting about The Wire my entire time here. Came up in the first politroll conversation I ever entered, back with Comrade Derek back in '0whatever.

As for Wire, the band, c'mon, Comrade Meatrace. I've got ten years working in used record stores under my belt.

I'm cooler than all of you!

Listening to Grateful Dead undoes all other cool you may have earned.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Like I take cool tips off of you.


More education activism:

MONDAY, MARCH 2 -- TELL WALSH: DROP THE ANTI-UNION FRAME-UP CHARGES ON UNION LEADER STEVE KIRSCHBAUM


Comrade Anklebiter wrote:
Like I take cool tips off of you.

Maybe you should.

Tip #1: Actual cool people don't brag about how cool they are.


LazarX wrote:
Irontruth wrote:

Shipping containers are useful for 2 reasons:

1) they're all the same size (which can't be said of clay pots or barrels)
2) You can change modes of transport just by moving the container

Actually barrels ARE made a consistent size. quite precisely. Which enabled to be stacked quite nicely whether on ship or on wagons pulled by draft animals such as Clyesdales.

If you've seen photos o Phoenician wrecks, youll find that amphorae are made to high degree of consistency, placed in wracks which allowed for uniform storage. And like barrels, could be sealed pretty much air tight if needed.

Keep also in mind when the world's population listed at much less than a billion souls, when great cities are those whose populations are in the tens of thousands, the scale of shipping, was also a good deal smaller. Those bloody steel boxes you have an obsession with, evolved as a response to a need that did not exist earlier.

What type of barrel are you referring to?

Bordeaux? (225 liters)
Burgundy? (228 liters)
Cognac? (300 liters)

The UK had another 7 sizes of barrels, which were also all slightly different sizes than US barrels. So, just looking at 3 countries, I've already found 17 different sizes of barrels, and not just different sizes for different uses, but also slight variations in similar sizes.

I agree, that one type of barrel from a single manufacturer would probably be pretty uniform. The concept of barrels though was far from uniform.

Even today, the standards for beer and wine barrels are different from each other, in both the US and UK, which also have different standards.

I have no specific information about clay pots.

Liberty's Edge

thejeff wrote:
Caineach wrote:
meatrace wrote:
houstonderek wrote:


Germany is also very selective about who they admit into a regular university type setting. They don't let just anybody get free college. If you don't have the academic chops you don't get to go. Period. No remedial classes for illiterates in German universities. That seems to be an American thing exclusively.
I've never heard of classes for illiterates at university though, so you'll have to elucidate me.
I've heard of them. Some colleges do remedial HS stuff. They just count towards certificates and not degrees.

Remedial HS classes are common. I'm not sure they go as far as "illiterates" though.

There's a long way between not quite ready for college English classes and "Can't read".

Yeah, it's called "functional illiteracy" and quite a few college grads these days suffer from it. I could link to all of the articles, studies, etc, about the language skills of our current crop of text/Tweet/emojii kids as they come out of college, but I might get carpal tunnel. Sorry.

Damn, remind me to not forget the "functionally" part next time.


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houstonderek wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Caineach wrote:
meatrace wrote:
houstonderek wrote:


Germany is also very selective about who they admit into a regular university type setting. They don't let just anybody get free college. If you don't have the academic chops you don't get to go. Period. No remedial classes for illiterates in German universities. That seems to be an American thing exclusively.
I've never heard of classes for illiterates at university though, so you'll have to elucidate me.
I've heard of them. Some colleges do remedial HS stuff. They just count towards certificates and not degrees.

Remedial HS classes are common. I'm not sure they go as far as "illiterates" though.

There's a long way between not quite ready for college English classes and "Can't read".
Yeah, it's called "functional illiteracy"

No, it's not. It's called "people who need remedial classes." "Functional illiteracy" means something more profound and substantially rarer.

The United States Department of Education has done substantial studies of this topic, and uses a four-point scale to assess adult literacy. "Functional Illiteracy" is generally defined as the lowest of the four categories: "Below Basic (can perform no more than the most simple and concrete literacy skills" (emphasis in original). In general, about 15% of US adults test at this level, a number that has been relatively stable for some time.

However, college-level courses typically require level 4 (Proficient: can perform complex and challenging literacy activities). Again, only about 15% of the population achieves this level. The vast majority of adults are at level 2-3.

Among college students, the percentage performing at level 4 is substantially higher (23% at 2-year colleges, 40% at 4-year) and the percentage at level 1 is vanishingly small.

The overwhelming plurality of people in both the general population and the college population are at level 3.


meatrace wrote:
Comrade Anklebiter wrote:
Like I take cool tips off of you.

Maybe you should.

Tip #1: Actual cool people don't brag about how cool they are.

From the Beats to the Velvet Underground: Bullshiznit.


Comrade Anklebiter wrote:
meatrace wrote:
Comrade Anklebiter wrote:
Like I take cool tips off of you.

Maybe you should.

Tip #1: Actual cool people don't brag about how cool they are.
From the Beats to the Velvet Underground: Bullshiznit.

Is there a VU song I'm not familiar with called "We're cooler than you c~+#s, so shut up"?


No, but I don't recall ever telling you less cool people to shut up, so....?


Remembering Lou Reed, rock'n'roll's favorite a*%#*$#

I try to learn from the best.


Chicago Charter School Teachers Demand a Union


Irontruth wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Irontruth wrote:
Would you consider people who speak different languages as different ethnic groups?
Yes, because frequently they are. You will also have different ethnic groups even within a mostly common language. In 17th century New Amsterdam, (now New York City) as many as 35 different languages could be heard speaking each day. Spain itself has about 5 or six variants of Spanish spoken with in, despite the frequently brutal efforts of Francisco Franco to homogenize the country.

In Switzerland you have 4 national languages, all moderately different (German, French, Italian and Romansh). Within German you have it split into Standard German and Swiss German (as a non-native standard German speaker, I can only understand about 50-60% of Swiss German).

So yes, it is a small country, but it is a country that is heavily influenced by it's neighbors, and that influence is felt more acutely in each quadrant of the country that borders somewhere else. There are cultural aspects shared across the country, but there are significant differences (language being one of the strongest).

This is probably why democracy took root so early in the region, as aspects of modern Switzerland did start to coalesce in the 13th century, but having to moderate between those various cultural differences (despite the similarities) the most effective method was a democratic one. Having input and influence on the greater whole gave each smaller group greater confidence in belonging to the whole, providing stability to the region.

I definitely buy the argument that their size does more easily allow them to have aspects of a direct democracy. In Switzerland citizens have been allowed to introduce laws for over 150 years. Something like 230 such laws have been introduced over that span, with only 10% being approved. They can also introduce constitutional amendments.

Side track: One of my favorite memories as a kid was going to Fasnacht. Imagine Carnival (Brazil), but run by...

Sounds like a lot of fun!!!


Krensky wrote:
houstonderek wrote:
Quark Blast wrote:
Scythia wrote:

Perhaps we could set it up so that minors are no longer given a first name, and only those with names are citizen, with human rights. The only way to receive a name is to earn it by demonstrating knowledge, skill, or bravery. High school will go from basic daycare to a testing ground designed to weed out the rest and pass only the best. Fight for your right to exist.

Wait, that's that's not my education idea, it's my idea for the plot of a YA novel series (working title: Nomenclasher).

One of the Grognards here says Heinlein has already done that. He was apparently all about tests for citizenship.

Maybe not YA though… you might have something there.

I love people that completely miss Heinlein's point. ;-)

I was going to say something but didn't feel up to explaining Starship Troopers to someone quite possible wasn't born when the Verhoeven hack job came out and never read the book.

Again.

HEY! THAT'S ONE OF MY FAVORITE MOVIES/ANIMATED SERIES/ANIMATED MOVIES!

Gonna watch roughnecks and invasion again as a result.


Kelsey Arwen MacAilbert wrote:
houstonderek wrote:
meatrace wrote:

Or just make college free here to citizens and aliens alike, then you'll massively brain drain the rest of the world as all the smart folks come here.

Germany did something similar recently and I'm sure they're working the same strategy.

Germany is also very selective about who they admit into a regular university type setting. They don't let just anybody get free college. If you don't have the academic chops you don't get to go. Period. No remedial classes for illiterates in German universities. That seems to be an American thing exclusively.

Germany has a good trade school system for those kids who don't get to go to university, though. Interestingly enough, free community college in America is a way to schieve that, since community colleges have trade programs. Shifting a lot of students over to the trades isn't a bad idea. Just need to get Americans to cut all this looking down on members of the trades.

can't agree with this enough.


BigDTBone wrote:
meatrace wrote:
houstonderek wrote:
meatrace wrote:

Or just make college free here to citizens and aliens alike, then you'll massively brain drain the rest of the world as all the smart folks come here.

Germany did something similar recently and I'm sure they're working the same strategy.

Germany is also very selective about who they admit into a regular university type setting. They don't let just anybody get free college. If you don't have the academic chops you don't get to go. Period. No remedial classes for illiterates in German universities. That seems to be an American thing exclusively.

Any halfway-decent school in the US is just as selective.

I mean, sure, any old boob can get into University of Nebraska at Bumf~#+, but you'll probably get about the same level of education as a community college.

I've never heard of classes for illiterates at university though, so you'll have to elucidate me.

I think you are confusing "decent school" with "prestigious school."

On a side note, between the courses that I have taken at Tarrant County College, University of North Texas, TCU, and Rice, the adjunct lecturers at TCC that actually work in their fields and teach at the community college at night were BY FAR the most rigorous/demanding AND most informative instructors.

I am concerned about the heavy handedness of some community college professors. As well as the lackadaisical nature of others. There seems to be little middle ground.


Caineach wrote:
meatrace wrote:
Krensky wrote:

Per his war stories, when asked why you can't divide a number by zero the response he got from someone applying to teach college mathematics was "Because it would anger the Math Gods." Not "it's undefined", not "you can't take X things and divide them into no piles". "Anger the Math Gods".

I'm amazed he doesn't drink more.

To be fair, that's what my friend tells his students, and he teaches AP Calc. Math teacher humor is an acquired taste.
Yeah, to me that sounds like the standard response you would get from any math major I knew in college. Just because the guy has a sense of humor and would rather show that than answer a question that is quite frankly beneath someone applying to teach math, does not mean he is dumb.

god I hate math. So much.


Orfamay Quest wrote:
houstonderek wrote:
thejeff wrote:
Caineach wrote:
meatrace wrote:
houstonderek wrote:


Germany is also very selective about who they admit into a regular university type setting. They don't let just anybody get free college. If you don't have the academic chops you don't get to go. Period. No remedial classes for illiterates in German universities. That seems to be an American thing exclusively.
I've never heard of classes for illiterates at university though, so you'll have to elucidate me.
I've heard of them. Some colleges do remedial HS stuff. They just count towards certificates and not degrees.

Remedial HS classes are common. I'm not sure they go as far as "illiterates" though.

There's a long way between not quite ready for college English classes and "Can't read".
Yeah, it's called "functional illiteracy"

No, it's not. It's called "people who need remedial classes." "Functional illiteracy" means something more profound and substantially rarer.

The United States Department of Education has done substantial studies of this topic, and uses a four-point scale to assess adult literacy. "Functional Illiteracy" is generally defined as the lowest of the four categories: "Below Basic (can perform no more than the most simple and concrete literacy skills" (emphasis in original). In general, about 15% of US adults test at this level, a number that has been relatively stable for some time.

However, college-level courses typically require level 4 (Proficient: can perform complex and challenging literacy activities). Again, only about 15% of the population achieves this level. The vast majority of adults are at level 2-3.

Among college students, the percentage performing at level 4 is substantially higher (23% at 2-year colleges, 40% at 4-year) and the percentage at level 1 is vanishingly small.

The overwhelming...

I work with a lot of functional illiterates. The term has become greatly overused. None of these people are going to college without serious remedial work. Some of them are trying and have made great strides, but none of them have gone to college. all dropped out of high school before the 11th grade. Those that have learned to read, or improved their reading since coming to my job function on a 3rd-4th grade level, or somewhere thereabouts.


Freehold DM wrote:
BigDTBone wrote:
meatrace wrote:
houstonderek wrote:
meatrace wrote:

Or just make college free here to citizens and aliens alike, then you'll massively brain drain the rest of the world as all the smart folks come here.

Germany did something similar recently and I'm sure they're working the same strategy.

Germany is also very selective about who they admit into a regular university type setting. They don't let just anybody get free college. If you don't have the academic chops you don't get to go. Period. No remedial classes for illiterates in German universities. That seems to be an American thing exclusively.

Any halfway-decent school in the US is just as selective.

I mean, sure, any old boob can get into University of Nebraska at Bumf~#+, but you'll probably get about the same level of education as a community college.

I've never heard of classes for illiterates at university though, so you'll have to elucidate me.

I think you are confusing "decent school" with "prestigious school."

On a side note, between the courses that I have taken at Tarrant County College, University of North Texas, TCU, and Rice, the adjunct lecturers at TCC that actually work in their fields and teach at the community college at night were BY FAR the most rigorous/demanding AND most informative instructors.

I am concerned about the heavy handedness of some community college professors. As well as the lackadaisical nature of others. There seems to be little middle ground.

the lackadaiscal nature of adjunct community college teaching is an unfortunate side effect of a job with no job benefits, security, and minimal pay. Some school may pay as little as $400 dollars a month for an instructor to teach a class, which means taking on 4-5 classes a semester just to stay afloat. And unless you have been in the system for a long long time or somehow landed a permanent community college job, there is no guarantee you will get ANY classes the semester afterward. I have friends who teach at this level and they are often contacted a week before classes start.

A lot of community college instructors are basically treading water while hunting for other employment...so there isn't as much effort put into instruction of the courses while teaching there.


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MMCJawa wrote:


the lackadaiscal nature of adjunct community college teaching is an unfortunate side effect of a job with no job benefits, security, and minimal pay. Some school may pay as little as $400 dollars a month for an instructor to teach a class, which means taking on 4-5 classes a semester just to stay afloat.

This.

I remember a case, vaguely, from a couple of years ago where an adjunct professor in her 50s (60s) starved to death in a garret in Pittsburgh. (I believe that was what literally happened, or perhaps she froze to death because she couldn't pay for heating..) It turned out that the school -- a relatively good 4-year college -- she worked at was paying her $2000 per semester per class, so she needed to teach something like ten classes per year (5 per semester) to stay above the poverty line. (A normal teaching load at such a college would be about 3 per semester).

And, of course, the school involved is frantically fighting a unionize-the-adjuncts movement that passed overwhelmingly among the adjuncts.

Basically, when you pay peanuts, you get monkeys.


6 people marked this as a favorite.

The details sound slightly off, but it might be the same case as was involved here, in which post-death unionization attempts had been held up as the university sought a religious exemption from union-busting laws.

(because taking care of faculty in poverty would have been an unacceptable interference with Duquesne's mission to teach Catholic values)


I would say that's unfair. You pay subsistence wages, you get transitory staffing at best.


Coriat wrote:
The details sound slightly off, but it might be the same case as was involved here, in which post-death unionization attempts had been held up as the university sought a religious exemption from union-busting laws.

That's the case, yes. Thanks for tracking down the news report.


Freehold DM wrote:
I would say that's unfair. You pay subsistence wages, you get transitory staffing at best.

Agreed with the second sentence. I'm not sure what's "unfair" about it, though.

It's a business decision on the part of the school. Low faculty wages keep costs down, which in turn will help keep tuition down. McDonalds serves mashed together unidentifiable chicken parts in its McChicken sandwich, but sells them for a buck. If you want a recognizable part of an actual bird, Le Grenouille Pretencieux sells suprême de poulet en baguette avec pomme frites for $30.

What seems to me unfair is to complain that McD's product is worse than L.G.P's, but that L.G.P.'s is too expensive.


Coriat wrote:

The details sound slightly off, but it might be the same case as was involved here, in which post-death unionization attempts had been held up as the university sought a religious exemption from union-busting laws.

(because taking care of faculty in poverty would have been an unacceptable interference with Duquesne's mission to teach Catholic values)

wow.


Coriat wrote:

The details sound slightly off, but it might be the same case as was involved here, in which post-death unionization attempts had been held up as the university sought a religious exemption from union-busting laws.

(because taking care of faculty in poverty would have been an unacceptable interference with Duquesne's mission to teach Catholic values)

Defend USW 8751! Drop all charges against Red Steve Kirschbaum! Victory to the Oil Workers Strike!

Man, adjunct professors, oil workers, school bus drivers, the Steelworkers really get around these days.

Liberty's Edge

Speaking of that...

Youse guys still representing Mickey Mouse?


I don't know.

1982: DISNEY WORLD CHARACTERS TO JOIN TEAMSTERS' UNION

I was walking along Church Avenue in Brooklyn the other day, though, and ran across a movie set, something called Blacklist. Said "Hello, brother!" to the dude in IBT jacket and kept walkin'. Should probably go to my local's Autism Gala one of these days, see if I can meet Matt Damon or Ben Affleck.

EDIT: Looks like it.


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Freehold DM wrote:
I would say that's unfair. You pay subsistence wages, you get transitory staffing at best.

Yeah the universities are looking for any way they can to cut costs for actual instruction of students, while administration keeps growing and growing.

Making the situation all the worse is the over-production of PhDs, since Universities increasingly rely on grad students to cover classes and labs, since they are fairly cheap labor. That means that the current system is producing PhDs at a far greater rate than the number of available positions opening up each year. So a lot of people have to take adjunct jobs, or leap from Postdoc to Postdoc (and budgets cuts to research make the latter rarer and rarer).

I received my PhD last spring and the market is terrible. I am cashiering at a grocery store, and only since January has my publication record built up enough to land me job interviews. I thankfully landed a postdoc position for the fall, otherwise I would have driven out to San Diego and been forced to enter the community college adjunct market.


I gotta say, all this college talk seems a little off topic.


Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
I gotta say, all this college talk seems a little off topic.

Fair enough, I have this link about the economic and social effects of the gaslight and electric lightbulb that we can discuss...


And I have a great chocolate mousse recipe...


BigNorseWolf wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Comrade Anklebiter wrote:

Will have to remember to share this one with La Principessa, who is thinking of running for Chapter Leader (UFT jargon for shop steward) this spring:

If Teachers Can’t Make Their Unions More Democratic and Social Justice-Minded, Public Ed Is Doomed

If the Walker tide really starts cresting, Teacher's Unions themselves are doomed. In NJ, charter schools are not required to let teachers unionize and they've been taking over public schools even in Jersey City itself.
Pretty easy to do when you skim the cream off the top and leave the problem kids and special ed to the public schools

I'm glad someone noticed.


MMCJawa wrote:
Freehold DM wrote:
BigDTBone wrote:
meatrace wrote:
houstonderek wrote:
meatrace wrote:

Or just make college free here to citizens and aliens alike, then you'll massively brain drain the rest of the world as all the smart folks come here.

Germany did something similar recently and I'm sure they're working the same strategy.

Germany is also very selective about who they admit into a regular university type setting. They don't let just anybody get free college. If you don't have the academic chops you don't get to go. Period. No remedial classes for illiterates in German universities. That seems to be an American thing exclusively.

Any halfway-decent school in the US is just as selective.

I mean, sure, any old boob can get into University of Nebraska at Bumf~#+, but you'll probably get about the same level of education as a community college.

I've never heard of classes for illiterates at university though, so you'll have to elucidate me.

I think you are confusing "decent school" with "prestigious school."

On a side note, between the courses that I have taken at Tarrant County College, University of North Texas, TCU, and Rice, the adjunct lecturers at TCC that actually work in their fields and teach at the community college at night were BY FAR the most rigorous/demanding AND most informative instructors.

I am concerned about the heavy handedness of some community college professors. As well as the lackadaisical nature of others. There seems to be little middle ground.
the lackadaiscal nature of adjunct community college teaching is an unfortunate side effect of a job with no job benefits, security, and minimal pay. Some school may pay as little as $400 dollars a month for an instructor to teach a class, which means taking on 4-5 classes a semester just to stay afloat. And unless you have been in the system for a long long time or somehow landed a permanent community college job, there is no guarantee you will get ANY classes...

Im torn on the idea of adjuncts and poor pay. Partly, I see it as an entitlement issue and partly I see it as trying to make a part-time job be full-time work.

PhD Adjuncts at my local community college earn $40 per contact hour (page 16) and that includes a mandatory 1 hour of "office hours" per week even if the instructor doesn't have an office and meets with students by arrangement only. So, an instructor teaching a lab class will have 3 contact hours for lecture, 3 for the lab, and 1 office hour. So that's 280 bucks or $1175 a month for teaching a single class. If the instructor were to teach a full load of 12 hours or about $3500 a month. That's with 8 weeks off a year, ultimate flexibility in scheduling, and still only working 20-22 hours a week.

This is particularly notable with automatically graded coursework, use of blackboard to rollover and copy classes. The job is only asking you to present course material in a compelling way and then go home.

If you are having issues making ends meet on a part time gig, then maybe try working full time; also maybe teaching isn't what is best for you and your family and you should look into the practical career of your field of study.


BigDTBone wrote:

Im torn on the idea of adjuncts and poor pay. Partly, I see it as an entitlement issue and partly I see it as trying to make a part-time job be full-time work.

PhD Adjuncts at my local community college earn $40 per contact hour (page 16) and that includes a mandatory 1 hour of "office hours" per week even if the instructor doesn't have an office and meets with students by arrangement only. So, an instructor teaching a lab class will have 3 contact hours for lecture, 3 for the lab, and 1 office hour. So that's 280 bucks or $1175 a month for teaching a single class. If the instructor were to teach a full load of 12 hours or about $3500 a month. That's with 8 weeks off a year, ultimate flexibility in scheduling, and still only working 20-22 hours a week.

This is particularly notable with automatically graded coursework, use of blackboard to rollover and copy classes. The job is only asking you to present course material in a compelling way and then go home.

If you are having issues making ends meet on a part time gig, then maybe try working full time; also maybe teaching isn't what is best for you and your family and you should look into the practical career of your field of study.

That's great except that most colleges, not just community ones are shifting more and more to adjunct, part time professors. Getting full time college teaching positions is getting harder and harder.

And working the lousy adjunct way is the feeder to the rare full time jobs.
I don't know, maybe they should all quit and give up on teaching and that would push the colleges into offering better jobs. Not without an awful lot of disruption though.


thejeff wrote:
BigDTBone wrote:

Im torn on the idea of adjuncts and poor pay. Partly, I see it as an entitlement issue and partly I see it as trying to make a part-time job be full-time work.

PhD Adjuncts at my local community college earn $40 per contact hour (page 16) and that includes a mandatory 1 hour of "office hours" per week even if the instructor doesn't have an office and meets with students by arrangement only. So, an instructor teaching a lab class will have 3 contact hours for lecture, 3 for the lab, and 1 office hour. So that's 280 bucks or $1175 a month for teaching a single class. If the instructor were to teach a full load of 12 hours or about $3500 a month. That's with 8 weeks off a year, ultimate flexibility in scheduling, and still only working 20-22 hours a week.

This is particularly notable with automatically graded coursework, use of blackboard to rollover and copy classes. The job is only asking you to present course material in a compelling way and then go home.

If you are having issues making ends meet on a part time gig, then maybe try working full time; also maybe teaching isn't what is best for you and your family and you should look into the practical career of your field of study.

That's great except that most colleges, not just community ones are shifting more and more to adjunct, part time professors. Getting full time college teaching positions is getting harder and harder.

And working the lousy adjunct way is the feeder to the rare full time jobs.
I don't know, maybe they should all quit and give up on teaching and that would push the colleges into offering better jobs. Not without an awful lot of disruption though.

That simply isn't the case as universities which want to retain tier 1,2, or 3 research status will continue to need and hire full time faculty to support their publishing effort. The number of jobs is the same as it always has been, it is just that the applicant pool is saturated.

Blue Collar Woes of the Ivory Tower.

Silver Crusade Contributor

Freehold DM wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Comrade Anklebiter wrote:

Will have to remember to share this one with La Principessa, who is thinking of running for Chapter Leader (UFT jargon for shop steward) this spring:

If Teachers Can’t Make Their Unions More Democratic and Social Justice-Minded, Public Ed Is Doomed

If the Walker tide really starts cresting, Teacher's Unions themselves are doomed. In NJ, charter schools are not required to let teachers unionize and they've been taking over public schools even in Jersey City itself.
Pretty easy to do when you skim the cream off the top and leave the problem kids and special ed to the public schools
I'm glad someone noticed.

THIS. So much this.

I had some great teachers in Special Ed. It was not due to their infrastructure or funding. But since it's politically easy to rob or manipulate the education system, nobody cares...


BigDTBone wrote:
thejeff wrote:
BigDTBone wrote:

Im torn on the idea of adjuncts and poor pay. Partly, I see it as an entitlement issue and partly I see it as trying to make a part-time job be full-time work.

PhD Adjuncts at my local community college earn $40 per contact hour (page 16) and that includes a mandatory 1 hour of "office hours" per week even if the instructor doesn't have an office and meets with students by arrangement only. So, an instructor teaching a lab class will have 3 contact hours for lecture, 3 for the lab, and 1 office hour. So that's 280 bucks or $1175 a month for teaching a single class. If the instructor were to teach a full load of 12 hours or about $3500 a month. That's with 8 weeks off a year, ultimate flexibility in scheduling, and still only working 20-22 hours a week.

This is particularly notable with automatically graded coursework, use of blackboard to rollover and copy classes. The job is only asking you to present course material in a compelling way and then go home.

If you are having issues making ends meet on a part time gig, then maybe try working full time; also maybe teaching isn't what is best for you and your family and you should look into the practical career of your field of study.

That's great except that most colleges, not just community ones are shifting more and more to adjunct, part time professors. Getting full time college teaching positions is getting harder and harder.

And working the lousy adjunct way is the feeder to the rare full time jobs.
I don't know, maybe they should all quit and give up on teaching and that would push the colleges into offering better jobs. Not without an awful lot of disruption though.

That simply isn't the case as universities which want to retain tier 1,2, or 3 research status will continue to need and hire full time faculty to support their publishing effort. The number of jobs is the same as it always has been, it is just that the applicant pool is saturated.

Blue Collar Woes of the Ivory Tower.

Nope. Publishing effort is what post docs are for. Even at research universities, the number of tenure lines is shrinking.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
I love how both of these threads have had so little to do with college while, at the same time, proving the need for more education.
More doesn't seem to be the issue

You do realize this was my major point of discussion on the prior Free College in USA thread?

Krugmen wrote:

Interestingly, some of the biggest recent wage gains are for skilled manual labor — sewing machine operators, boilermakers — as some manufacturing production moves back to America. But the notion that highly skilled workers are generally in demand is just false.

Finally, while the education/inequality story may once have seemed plausible, it hasn’t tracked reality for a long time. “The wages of the highest-skilled and highest-paid individuals have continued to increase steadily,” the Hamilton Project says. Actually, the inflation-adjusted earnings of highly educated Americans have gone nowhere since the late 1990s.

As Krugman states, the problem is power distribution in the economy.

As I said up thread, "It's taken most of a century, but now those who crave power have started to corral a significant portion of that boon for themselves. The so-called 1% (but really it's closer to the top 1/4 of 1%)."

The only forms of government to consistently swing further in this direction are the fascists, communists, and feudal lords.

However, education as job skills tutoring won't effect this imbalance. A liberal arts education for all would be a good start but no one does that anymore. Not even institutions that offer a Liberal Studies degree. I think we're out of luck until the tide of history sloshes back the other way.

Go Doodles! :)


Go where?


BigDTBone wrote:

Im torn on the idea of adjuncts and poor pay. Partly, I see it as an entitlement issue and partly I see it as trying to make a part-time job be full-time work.

PhD Adjuncts at my local community college earn $40 per contact hour (page 16) and that includes a mandatory 1 hour of "office hours" per week even if the instructor doesn't have an office and meets with students by arrangement only. So, an instructor teaching a lab class will have 3 contact hours for lecture, 3 for the lab, and 1 office hour. So that's 280 bucks or $1175 a month for teaching a single class. If the instructor were to teach a full load of 12 hours or about $3500 a month. That's with 8 weeks off a year, ultimate flexibility in scheduling, and still only working 20-22 hours a week.

This is particularly notable with automatically graded coursework, use of blackboard to rollover and copy classes. The job is only asking you to present course material in a compelling way and then go home.

If you are having issues making ends meet on a part time gig, then maybe try working full time; also maybe teaching isn't what is best for you and your family and you should look into the practical career of your field of study.

Well as mentioned, there is a substantial amount of variation in what adjuncts make (again, in Laramie it worked out to be $400 a month for a general biology course, while in Northern Michigan I think I worked it out to be somewhere around $600 a month). And something to consider is I don't know anywhere where its just regurgitation and computers correcting material. My friends who adjunct teach are also responsible for creating all their presentation material and quizzes, and none of the classes I taught at any level were simply scantron...grading can stack up quite a bit for essays and such. And those 8 weeks of vacation could also be looked at as 2 months of unemployment.

I don't think adjuncts at community college should be pulling in Salaries equivalent to that of profs at 4 year or higher universities. But there should at least be some guarantee that if a prof is sticking around for more than a semester, that he should be guaranteed 12 teaching hours and actually is making a wage he can exist on.


BigDTBone wrote:

That simply isn't the case as universities which want to retain tier 1,2, or 3 research status will continue to need and hire full time faculty to support their publishing effort. The number of jobs is the same as it always has been, it is just that the applicant pool is saturated.

Blue Collar Woes of the Ivory Tower.

At both research Universities I have been associated, there have been non tenure track faculty hired to teach courses. Obviously they are not getting rid of the tenure system, but they are trying to cut costs as they raise attendance in basic courses.

I do agree with the saturation though. That is probably the biggest problem. But again, Universities love grad students because they are cheap labor. So professors are encouraged to take on grad students as part of the tenure process, even as the chances of said students finding employment decreases.


Comrade Anklebiter wrote:
Go where?
I was assuming you'd pick up on my statement
Quote:
As Krugman states, the problem is power distribution in the economy.

and run with it.

Vive la Révolution! ...or some such.

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