I am starting this thread to answer some questions, and to avoid necroing about 5 threads.
Here they go:
Flurry of Maneuvers wrote: At 1st level, as part of a full-attack action, a maneuver master can make one additional combat maneuver, regardless of whether the maneuver normally replaces a melee attack or requires a standard action. The maneuver master uses his monk level in place of his base attack bonus to determine his CMB for the bonus maneuvers, though all combat maneuver checks suffer a –2 penalty when using a flurry. 1) If I am grappling a target, I am obligated to maintain the grapple each round, or release the grapple. If I choose to FoM and grapple, does that fulfuill the requirement to maintain the grapple?
Grapple wrote: If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold. 2) If you can grapple multiple times in a round, can you 'maintain the grapple' multiple times? Grapple calls out using a Standard Action to maintain, but FoM (and Binding Throw) allow you to grapple as not a standard (Psuedostandard, and swift, respectively).
Grapple wrote: Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple). 3) I choose to FoM, and Grapple as the psuedostandard first, before my attack, can I still attack, and can I replace the attack with a Trip Maneuver? Can I use the pseudostandard first, or do I have to make the attack first?
4) If I have Binding Throw, and #3 happens, do I get to grapple again? Is this 'maintaining the grapple'?
All of these questions are in respect to a Pre-Greater Grapple/Lvl 8 character, as Greater Grapple adds more complexity, as does a Lvl 8 Maneuver Master's FoM.
EDIT: Adding another question:
5) Grapple and Flanking. Do I get the +2 to my CMB check? What if I am grappling with a Dan Bong?
Thanks.
1) Once you're grappling, you must at the start of your turn decide to spend a standard action to maintain the grapple or a free action to release the grapple. So if you start the turn grappling and you want to make an FoM, then you have to let go of your grapple first. You can regrapple the target as part of the FoM if you want, but then you can't do any of the 'I maintained a grapple' things (free damage, pin, move).
2) Once you are grappling someone, you cannot grapple someone else unless you have a special rule allowing it. Maintaining a grapple is a standard action, it is not a grapple combat maneuver.
3) You can open with a grapple, and if you succeed you are limited by the rules of attacking things while grappled (remember, the target and the initiator both count as grappled per the status condition, which has penalties to attacking and such). You can then perform a trip, I suppose, but I don't know how that works with grappling (since the target would be prone but the grappler isn't... though I'm sure it is fine).
4) Again, the grapple maintenance check is not the same as the grapple combat maneuver (though it features the same bonuses). You would be allowed to gain a free grapple CM on a target not already grappled. This is good if you don't want to use the FoM (due to the penalty) or if you fail to get the free FoM grapple to stick and want a second try. It does not let you grapple with FoM and then pin with Binding Throw.
5) If you would get the +2 bonus on an attack from where you are with respect to the enemy (e.g. you are threatening it), you would get it on the grapple.
Thanks for your reply.
MurphysParadox wrote: 1) Once you're grappling, you must at the start of your turn decide to spend a standard action to maintain the grapple or a free action to release the grapple. So if you start the turn grappling and you want to make an FoM, then you have to let go of your grapple first. You can regrapple the target as part of the FoM if you want, but then you can't do any of the 'I maintained a grapple' things (free damage, pin, move). Where does it say you have to maintain/drop out at the start of the turn? Additionally, you can make a full attack while grappled, that is covered in the FAQs about grapple. So you should be able to FoM while in a grapple, without breaking it. The question is, can you use the psuedo-standard granted by FoM to grapple/maintain.
MurphysParadox wrote: 2) Once you are grappling someone, you cannot grapple someone else unless you have a special rule allowing it. Maintaining a grapple is a standard action, it is not a grapple combat maneuver. This is also confusing, as I was under the impression the Maintain a Grapple was still a Grapple Combat Maneuver. Otherwise, all the "+X to grapple" abilites would also need a "+X to maintain a grapple", or else not work for maintaining a grapple. Additionally, the FAQ about grappling spells out that you make a combat maneuver check to grapple in order to maintain the grapple. If 'Maintain a Grapple' is not a combat maneuver, but you make a combat maneuver check...confusing.
MurphysParadox wrote: 3) You can open with a grapple, and if you succeed you are limited by the rules of attacking things while grappled (remember, the target and the initiator both count as grappled per the status condition, which has penalties to attacking and such). You can then perform a trip, I suppose, but I don't know how that works with grappling (since the target would be prone but the grappler isn't... though I'm sure it is fine). I agree, but there are some silly aspects to this (like, the grappled target is able to stand up, and grappled states that you cannot take AoO.)
MurphysParadox wrote: 4) Again, the grapple maintenance check is not the same as the grapple combat maneuver (though it features the same bonuses). You would be allowed to gain a free grapple CM on a target not already grappled. This is good if you don't want to use the FoM (due to the penalty) or if you fail to get the free FoM grapple to stick and want a second try. It does not let you grapple with FoM and then pin with Binding Throw. As covered above, why? I cannot, which is possibly my own oversight, parse the grappled rules in a way that makes "maintain a grapple" not a grapple combat maneuver, while still allowing feats and abilities to work correctly. And if 'Maintain a grapple' is just a mantitory Grapple CM, which is what is reads like, there is not really any limit to when, or how many times you can do it, so long as you are able to Grapple at least once per turn to maintain, as required.
MurphysParadox wrote: 5) If you would get the +2 bonus on an attack from where you are with respect to the enemy (e.g. you are threatening it), you would get it on the grapple. Problem here stems from the mixture of discussions related to flanking, threatening, and grapple checks. It is unclear if a Grapple CM is a melee attack, and flanking bonuses are only awarded to melee attacks. Additionally, when grappled, you are disallowed to make AoO, which some have read as removing threatening. The combination of these uncertainties is where this question stems from. Is grapple a melee attack, or just an untyped attack (if this exists). If it is a melee attack, what is the weapon I am using? If it is not a melee attack, do I still get flanking bonus, or no? If I cannot make any AoO, do I threaten?
Confusing.
Maintaining a grapple is a standard action that uses all the same bonuses as a grapple maneuver. Notice that without improved grapple, you will cause an AOO for trying to grapple someone but you will not cause an AOO if you are maintaining the grapple? You cannot use FoM (or the traditional 'grapple in place of an attack' option) to maintain the grapple.
The grapple rules state "If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold." It is now a grapple check, not a grapple combat maneuver (which is a grapple check that can be made in place of an attack or with FoM and many other feats). It has all the same bonuses, but has less freedom of when and how it is done. It must be a standard action and it must be made each round.
Your main question is, if I understand, is this - "Can FoM be used to maintain an existing grapple?" I say no, because FoM allows a combat maneuver and maintaining a grapple is not actually a combat maneuver.
As for flanking. A combat maneuver, unless otherwise specified (and grapple does not) is an attack roll with your CMB. See this quote (emphasis mine):
Quote: When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver. The DC of this maneuver is your target's Combat Maneuver Defense. Combat maneuvers are attack rolls, so you must roll for concealment and take any other penalties that would normally apply to an attack roll. If you are using a weapon to do the grapple (it has the grapple special condition), you add the bonuses. If you are flanking, add the flanking bonus.
As for being able to make AOOs and threatening. If you do not threaten, you cannot make AOOs, per the rules. However, if you cannot make AOOs, that does not necessarily mean (from what I've read) you do not threaten for purposes of flanking.
MurphysParadox wrote: Maintaining a grapple is a standard action that uses all the same bonuses as a grapple maneuver. Notice that without improved grapple, you will cause an AOO for trying to grapple someone but you will not cause an AOO if you are maintaining the grapple? You cannot use FoM (or the traditional 'grapple in place of an attack' option) to maintain the grapple.
The grapple rules state "If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold." It is now a grapple check, not a grapple combat maneuver (which is a grapple check that can be made in place of an attack or with FoM and many other feats). It has all the same bonuses, but has less freedom of when and how it is done. It must be a standard action and it must be made each round.
Your main question is, if I understand, is this - "Can FoM be used to maintain an existing grapple?" I say no, because FoM allows a combat maneuver and maintaining a grapple is not actually a combat maneuver.
I simply do not think that the RAW supports this conclusion. There is no defined action called a Combat Maneuver Check. There is a Combat Maneuver [Attack Action], and that is clearly defined. If maintaining a grapple is a different thing than a Combat Maneuver [Attack Action], than RAW would mean that you cannot add things like flanking, feat bonuses, ability bonuses, etc. If there are rules supporting the idea of a Combat Maneuver Check which uses all the same effects as a Combat Maneuver [Attack Action], please tell me where it is.
MurphysParadox wrote: As for flanking. A combat maneuver, unless otherwise specified (and grapple does not) is an attack roll with your CMB. See this quote (emphasis mine):
Quote: When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver. The DC of this maneuver is your target's Combat Maneuver Defense. Combat maneuvers are attack rolls, so you must roll for concealment and take any other penalties that would normally apply to an attack roll. If you are using a weapon to do the grapple (it has the grapple special condition), you add the bonuses. If you are flanking, add the flanking bonus.
As for being able to make AOOs and threatening. If you do not threaten, you cannot make AOOs, per the rules. However, if you cannot make AOOs, that does not...
Sure. I am not arguing that a Combat Maneuver is not an attack. I am saying that a grapple is not a melee attack. Flanking says:
Quote: When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by another enemy character or creature on its opposite border or opposite corner. Grapple is, by RAW, not defined as a melee attack. In fact, if it were, you would need to define which weapon you are attacking with. If that is the case, you could Weapon Finesse Grapple, which has been fairly convincingly shown not to be the case.
Starting a grapple and maintaining a grapple are both standard actions, they cannot be used in place of a melee attack. Flurry of Manuevers is a specific rule overriding the general rule. You can use your flurry to maintain.
Where in Flurry of Maneuvers or the Combat Maneuver or Grapple sections does it give you any idea that the maintenance check to continue grappling someone can be done as part of the flurry?
The maintenance step rules says it is a standard action to make a check. It does not say "you must make a combat maneuver to maintain the grapple".
MurphysParadox wrote: Where in Flurry of Maneuvers or the Combat Maneuver or Grapple sections does it give you any idea that the maintenance check to continue grappling someone can be done as part of the flurry?
The maintenance step rules says it is a standard action to make a check. It does not say "you must make a combat maneuver to maintain the grapple".
Ok, can you tell me how to add up modifiers/feats for this "check"? Because, if it is not a grapple, this "check" is only a combat maneuver check, and will take all the penalties, and none of the benefits. If it is a grapple check, ie a grapple combat maneuver, we know how to work it.
Flurry gives you the ability to perform an extra combat maneuver as part of a full attack, even if it would normally take a standard. So, understanding that maintaining a grapple is a grapple combat maneuver which normally takes a standard, you can flurry it.
Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote: Starting a grapple and maintaining a grapple are both standard actions, they cannot be used in place of a melee attack. Agree, but was this specifically relating to something said, or was this meant as a response to the flanking question?
Ok, let me try again with rule quotes and how I read them.
Combat Maneuver wrote: During combat, you can attempt to perform a number of maneuvers that can hinder or even cripple your foe, including bull rush, disarm, grapple, overrun, sunder, and trip. Although these maneuvers have vastly different results, they all use a similar mechanic to determine success. Grapple Combat Maneuver wrote: As a standard action, you can attempt to grapple a foe, hindering his combat options... If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold. If your target does not break the grapple, you get a +5 circumstance bonus on grapple checks made against the same target in subsequent rounds. Ok, so first off, maintaining a grapple is not on the list of combat maneuvers. List does contain Grapple, the Combat Maneuver, but when you look at the Grapple rule, it explains that a grapple CM is the attempt to start a grapple. Once you have the grapple successfully begun, you are done with the combat maneuver. It is completed successfully and thumbs up to you.
NOW on the next turn, you have to choose to make a check to maintain the grapple. This is not a combat maneuver (note the list of maneuvers in the first quote). It is a standard action using the same check (e.g. the same bonuses, plus an additional +5 bonus) as the original grapple. This is a grapple check, per the rules, not a combat maneuver roll, but it uses the same bonuses.
I know this seems to be a useless distinction. But it is an important one. Maintaining a grapple is not a combat maneuver, even though it uses all the same bonuses as a combat maneuver, it is a "grapple check" as it says.
I've done all I can to try and elucidate the admittedly subtle difference here. You don't have to listen to my interpretation; my comments mean nothing next to that of your GM's ruling. So take the issue to him or her and have it decided that way. But consider how much more powerful this would make FoM. A single class feature that now lets you grapple and full attack in the same round? Not even the full chain of grappling feats (imp, greater, rapid) will give a character the ability to get the free damage of a maintained grapple and then a full attack against the same target in a single turn. Common sense suggests the interpretation as you see it is overly powerful and thus questionable in its interpretation especially given a lack of any explicit wording to support it.
Now, if the grapple ability said "If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a grapple combat maneuver against your grappled target to maintain the hold" I would agree with your interpretation, but the key phrase "combat maneuver" is absent (and in its place, the term "standard action" which would be superfluous using your interpretation).
MurphysParadox wrote: Ok, so first off, maintaining a grapple is not on the list of combat maneuvers. List does contain Grapple, the Combat Maneuver, but when you look at the Grapple rule, it explains that a grapple CM is the attempt to start a grapple. The grapple rules do not have the word 'start' in them. All they say is 'As a standard action, you can attempt to grapple a foe, hindering his combat options.' This does not say 'As a standard, attempt to start grappling a foe'. This means, as I am reading it, that attempting a grapple is a standard action, and that is it. Additionally, because "Maintain a Grapple" is not on the combat maneuver list should tell you that there are other rules in play, providing information as to how to proceed, and because we are dealing with Grapple Combat Maneuver Checks, the Grapple rules (and implications) take over.
MurphysParadox wrote: NOW on the next turn, you have to choose to make a check to maintain the grapple. This is not a combat maneuver (note the list of maneuvers in the first quote). It is a standard action using the same check (e.g. the same bonuses, plus an additional +5 bonus) as the original grapple. This is a grapple check, per the rules, not a combat maneuver roll, but it uses the same bonuses. If the Grapple Combat Maneuver Check is not a combat maneuver, many feats and abilities fall apart. Nowhere do the rules say 'Make a combat maneuver check, and add bonuses as if it were a combat maneuver'. This is because it is a combat maneuver, as shown by the fact it is a combat maneuver check. I do not know where, RAW, you are getting the idea it is something else, or that (if it were something else), it would get all the bonuses.
MurphysParadox wrote: I know this seems to be a useless distinction. But it is an important one. Maintaining a grapple is not a combat maneuver, even though it uses all the same bonuses as a combat maneuver, it is a "grapple check" as it says. It is not a useless distinction, if you can provide rules that support it. You have quoted the same rules I have been, but you have asserted that there is a difference between a Grapple Combat Maneuver (which to perform you have to make a check), and a Grapple Combat Maneuver Check.
My logic follows something like this:
What is a Grapple? A Grapple is a Combat Maneuver.
What is a Combat Maneuver? A combat maneuver is an action that can be taken in place of other specific actions, and in Grapple's case, a Standard Action.
How do I do a Grapple? You must make a Combat Maneuver Check vs your foe's Combat Maneuver Defense.
How do I make a Combat Maneuver Check? You make an attack roll, add your CMB and any modifiers relevent, and compare that to your foe's CMD. If your value is greater, you have succeeded the Combat Maneuver Check.
Now from the point of view of having already grappled a foe, and assuming that a 'grapple check' is a Combat Maneuver:
How do I continue this Grapple? You must make a Grapple Combat Maneuver Check as a standard action.
How do I make a Grapple Combat Maneuver Check? [And this continues as above]
Now lets look at the same case, but without assuming a 'grapple check' is a Combat Maneuver:
How do I continue this Grapple? You must make a grapple check.
How do I make a grapple check? ...Um. Well, it has the word grapple in it, but its not a combat maneuver, so there are no rules for this. Sorry.
The key thing here is that the term 'grapple check' has no defined meaning, unless you assume 'grapple check' is another phrase for Grapple Combat Maneuver Check.
MurphysParadox wrote: But consider how much more powerful this would make FoM. A single class feature that now lets you grapple and full attack in the same round? Not even the full chain of grappling feats (imp, greater, rapid) will give a character the ability to get the free damage of a maintained grapple and then a full attack against the same target in a single turn. Common sense suggests the interpretation as you see it is overly powerful and thus questionable in its interpretation especially given a lack of any explicit wording to support it. Umm. Sorry, but have you looked at Greater Grapple?
Greater Grapple wrote: Benefit: You receive a +2 bonus on checks made to grapple a foe. This bonus stacks with the bonus granted by Improved Grapple. Once you have grappled a creature, maintaining the grapple is a move action. This feat allows you to make two grapple checks each round (to move, harm, or pin your opponent), but you are not required to make two checks. You only need to succeed at one of these checks to maintain the grapple. And Rapid Grapple?
Rapid Grapple wrote: Benefit: Whenever you use Greater Grapple to successfully maintain a grapple as a move action, you can then spend a swift action to make a grapple combat maneuver check. They do exactly those things, but you don't even need to use a full-round action. Either way, these concerns are Game Design concerns, not Game Rules concerns.
We disagree on this particular point:
"How do I continue this Grapple? You must make a Grapple Combat Maneuver Check as a standard action."
As I said at the end of my last post, if it really did say "make a grapple combat maneuver" then we wouldn't be arguing. But it just says check, which it further and in your interpretation unnecessarily, describes the action type for this check.
But anyway. We won't agree on that so, again, ask your GM because that is truly the only answer that matters.
As for Greater Grapple and Rapid Grapple. Neither let you do a maintenance grapple check and a full attack in one round. Greater turns the maintenance check into a move. Rapid says if you have used greater grapple to maintain with a move action, you may now make a swift action to grapple this turn. So no matter what, you're using a move action to maintain the grapple.
Note, greater grapple also doesn't let you go from standing there to pinned (Grapple + Maintenance) with a standard and a move; still takes two turns since the maintenance can only be done the turn after you grapple someone. Greater grapple does let you take two tries at it, lets you move action pin, then standard action punch the guy; or move action maintain for the free damage, then standard action punch the guy.
So, apart from your interpretation of FoM, there is no way to maintain and full attack someone in the same turn.
Maintaining a grapple is definitely different from starting one, as seen by the fact that Greater Grapple turns maintaining, but not starting a grapple into a move action.
I am not convinced however that maintaining a grapple is not a combat maneuver. The combat maneuvers list "grapple." It is more intuitive to say that this contains both "starting a grapple" and "maintaining a grapple" than it is to say that this only includes starting a grapple, and that maintaining a grapple is not actually grappling. Plus, Rapid Grappler says when you maintain a grapple, you can use a swift to "make a grapple combat maneuver check." That ability is clearly supposed to permit maintaining a grapple, not starting a new one. Thus, maintaining a grapple must be a combat maneuver check, thus a combat maneuver.
This does seem unusually powerful and may make the Maneuver Master better than a Tetori at grappling, at least at low levels. It may need to be revised. On the other hand, without Flurry of Blows your full attack sans maneuvers is not impressive, and you will still suffer the restrictions of the grappled condition. I don't think it's so clearly overpowered that it can't be possible.
With that in mind:
1) Grappling as your bonus maneuver using Flurry of Maneuvers will allow you to maintain a grapple - assuming that maneuver succeeds.
2) You can maintain a grapple multiple times - this is what Greater Grapple does. Remember to use FoM you have to make a full attack so you can't use it with Greater Grapple or Rapid Grappler (which depends on using your move action for Greater Grapple). Binding Throw is probably intended to be used only on starting a grapple, not maintaining one, but RAW doesn't restrict it in this way. However since it doesn't have the language Greater Grapple does - "This feat allows you to make two grapple checks each round (to move, harm, or pin your opponent), but you are not required to make two checks. You only need to succeed at one of these checks to maintain the grapple" - I'm not sure if this would actually count as your check to maintain the grapple. It's possible it would allow you to damage, tie up, etc your opponent but that you would have to make a separate check to maintain the grapple or else release it.
3) It appears you can make your extra maneuver from Flurry of Maneuvers anywhere in the full attack. You may replace additional maneuvers with Trip, Disarm, etc as normal but only your bonus maneuver (or maneuvers at level 8+) may be ones that normally require a standard action.
4) RAW Binding Throw will give you an extra grapple check if you grapple and then trip. As above, not sure that's RAI.
5) You can flank while grappling.
Quote: Grapple is, by RAW, not defined as a melee attack. In fact, if it were, you would need to define which weapon you are attacking with. If that is the case, you could Weapon Finesse Grapple, which has been fairly convincingly shown not to be the case. Grapple is its own weapon. You can take weapon focus (grapple). You can't Weapon Finesse it because it's not a light weapon, which is why you need Agile Maneuvers.
You can actually grapple two people at once. Grappling with one hand is a minus four penalty. If you have greater grapple, maintaining is a move action, letting you maintain twice a round.
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