A bunch of wild shape questions..

[claudekennilol]

1)

Wild Speech wrote:

Wild Speech

You speak with the tongue of men and beasts.

Prerequisites: Druid level 6th, wild shape class feature.

Benefit: When using wild shape to take the form in which you cannot speak (such as an animal), you are able to speak normally in any language you know. This allows you to cast spells with verbal components, speak command words, and activate spell completion and spell trigger items. However, it does not give you the ability to cast spells requiring somatic components unless you also have the Natural Spell feat, or cast spells with material components merged into your form.

When using wild shape to take the form of an animal, you may use speak with animals to communicate with animals of your assumed form. This is a spell-like ability with a caster level equal to your druid level, and you may use it for a number of minutes per day equal to your druid level. These minutes do not have to be consecutive, but must be used in one-minute increments.

The second paragraph, that's already something that's built into wild shape. Is it limiting the in-built ability already, or is it just redundant because wild shape already does this?

2) does wild shape never progress into beast shape IV?

3) if I use wild shape to change into something with a burrow speed (assuming I'm high enough to wild shape as beast shape IV), and someone is riding me, do they burrow with me? (that's more of just a mounted question in general, so it's the same answer)

4) Without Wild Speech, what ways are there for me to communicate with my party? Things I can think of. Someone can cast speak with animals. My party has a familiar that I can talk with because it's similar to my form and the wizard/sorc/whatever can translate.. Maybe have someone in the party that can speak Sylvan and be in a plant form.. That's about it that I can think of..

5) Do I keep my humanoid subtype or become that completely of the animal? (or rather does enlarge person or animal growth work on me while in animal form?)

6) If someone is riding me do I go on their initiative or do I go on my own?

7)

Powerful Shape wrote:

Powerful Shape

Your wild shapes are mighty and muscular.

Prerequisites: Wild shape class feature, druid level 8th.

Benefit: When in wild shape, treat your size as one category larger for the purpose of calculating CMB, CMD, carrying capacity, and any size-based special attacks you use or that are used against you (such as grab, swallow whole, and trample).

What exactly does it mean by "size-based"--as in abilities that are specifically listed under special attack? So for instance, trip would only apply to the modified CMB and not just fail for me being too large because my size didn't go up because trip isn't a special attack? Likewise, my damage dice wouldn't go up when pouncing because pounce isn't a size-based special attack?

8) Are there any rules for multiple people riding a single creature? Like if I were some huge water-beast could multiple people ride me across the river simultaneously?

9) Is there any way for me to Beast Shape before level 4?

10) Is there any way for me to qualify for Narrow Frame without GM fiat?

bonus) This is more advice.. What are some traits/feats (and tactics) that I can take to increase my beast shaping capabilities. I'm building a mount for my wife's character and would like to get into my "role" before level 4 if at all possible (and level 4 is just a limited role, level 6 is when I become a mount mostly all day).

What I'm considering Natural Spell (absolute must), Powerful Shape (doesn't seem as useful as it should be), and Wild Speech (which seems almost entirely useless). The rest will be Teamwork Feats except I'll probably also take Vital Strike.

[Gauss]

1) This would not be the first time a feat "gave" you an ability you already possessed.

2) Correct

3) Interesting question, I would have to say, yes, they occupy your space.
Note: Beast Shape IV is not required, Beast Shape III has a burrow speed.

4) There are magic items or spells that replicate Wild Speech. You could scratch words in the dirt. The rest of your ideas would work.

5) Your type does not change. Size changing magic does not work on someone using a Polymorph effect.

CRB p212 wrote:

You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell. In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.

6) Your own, the rule for the mount going on the riders initiative is intended for 'dumb' mounts or mounts under the rider's control. I suggest you or the rider delaying to synch up initiatives.

7) Any special attack which is limited by size counts you as one category larger. Trip and Grab are just two. This does not alter your damage dice. It alters what you can affect.
Example: When you are Large and you make a Grab attack you are limited to grabbing large creatures. This allows you to grab Huge creatures.

8) No general rule that I am aware of. However, there are creatures that state they can carry additional people (such as Bestiary 4 Xanthos) using a Howdah.

9) Using Wild Shape? No.

10) You should not need GM fiat. If you can change into an Animal or Magical Beast you should qualify for a feat like this. However, there may be table variation as some people may key off of 'type' more than the intent of 'form'.

Bonus) Wild Speech can be replaced with the magic item Circlet of Speaking (Animal Archive) or the spell Beastspeak (ACG).

[Byakko]

I was going to answer these, but someone got there first. :) I will add a few minor notes, tho:

4) A familiar is a magical beast, not an animal, so your GM may not allow you to talk with them. Also, I'm not sure what you were going for with the plant form/Sylvan suggestion.

7) Probably obvious, but it also modifies your size attack modifiers for these combat maneuvers too.

8) A huge water beast could certainly carry a lot of things, including creatures, on its back (within carrying capacity), but the rules assume that a mount only has one rider without fancy items.

9) There are ways to Beast Shape before level 4 (typically into very specific forms), but not Wild Shape.

10) It would be GM fiat. Narrow Frame has "animal or magical beast" as a prerequisite, of which you are neither. Polymorph rules are quite clear that your type doesn't change.

Bonus)
Circlet of Speaking won't work, again, because you're not actually of type animal.
Wild Speech may actually be a good thing to have, as lack of rapid communication can be painful when you're playing a social game like D&D.
The teamwork feats are a good call, particularly Escape Route.
I recommend having your wife either be a small humanoid or take Undersized Mount - it'll give you a lot more options and make navigating dungeons easier.
Btw, you're just begging for "mount" jokes with this.

[James Risner]

Circlet of Speaking (Animal Archive) only works on Animals, which you are not while Wild Shaped.

Beastspeak works fine if you have a Divine Focus after you wild shaped.

[claudekennilol]

For 4, Sylvan is the language plants speak. I was assuming there're actually plant shapes that can be chosen that speak it.

[James Risner]

claudekennilol wrote:

For 4, Sylvan is the language plants speak. I was assuming there're actually plant shapes that can be chosen that speak it.

Actually, for 4 you will likely be restricted to languages (that you know) that appear in the Monster's Languages line.

[Gauss]

If a Circlet of Speaking does not work then neither does Speak with Animals. However, I am pretty sure most GM's will not have a problem with either working. This is a case where I think RAI is greater than RAW.

As for Beastspeak, I really wish they (the Devs) would think this stuff through. It states you can cast the spell while in an animal form (by replacing somatic components with animal equivalents) but it doesn't account for the Divine Focus.

It is needlessly complicated when they do it like that.

[claudekennilol]

James Risner wrote:

claudekennilol wrote:

For 4, Sylvan is the language plants speak. I was assuming there're actually plant shapes that can be chosen that speak it.

Actually, for 4 you will likely be restricted to languages (that you know) that appear in the Monster's Languages line.

Druids can learn Sylvan, so as long as I pick that up I can speak it while shapechanged.

[Byakko]

As for plant shape, the languages the plant creature would normally know are irrelevant. The question is whether they possess the apparatus to vocalize speech. It's a bit of a GM call as to which can, but generally if they can speak languages at all, you should be able to speak any languages you know while in that form.

Gauus: Speak with Animals allows the caster to "ask questions of and receive answers from animals". A Wild Shaped druid is not an animal, thus this spell doesn't aid in communicating with them at all. RAW and RAI is very clear... polymorph effects do not change your type.
Also, there's nothing that stops a druid from wearing a Divine Focus after they've changed shape - just put it on a chain around the neck, or whatever.

[Gauss]

Byakko, I was referencing a different RAW/RAI. Not the one you referenced.

RAW/RAI: Polymorph does not change your type.
On this we agree.

RAW: Wild Shape allows you to speak with other animals of your same general type.

RAW: Yes, Speak with Animals will not work when you are wild shaped because you are not an animal.

RAI: If you can communicate as an animal then it makes sense that you should be able to be communicated TO as an animal. Ie: Speak with Animals should work even if the RAW says it doesn't.

Now, I have no basis for this RAI other than a common sense interpretation of "what is the spell trying to accomplish? It allows you to talk to creatures who speak 'animal'." combined with "you speak 'animal' while wild shaped".

I have a similar type of RAI interpretation regarding the Circlet of Speaking.

My bad for posting both options as if they were RAW. Sometimes I (and for that matter, everyone) forget what is RAW vs their household interpretations of RAI. However, for anything other than PFS they are pretty reasonable interpretations.

As for the Divine Focus. It is clear that the spell is intended to be able to be cast while Polymorphed without any difficulty. That the Devs would then incidentally introduce a difficulty in the form of a Divine Focus seems to be a problem. It seems to me to be a case of the intent of the text vs spell's statblock not quite agreeing with each other.

[Byakko]

Speak with Animals is kinda an odd spell, actually.

The spell allows animals you "talk" with to respond in a human-ish fashion. Even if they're not literally using human speech, the ability to make "inane comments" or perform a "favor or service" are language comprehension feats and brain functioning than most(all?) animals do not possess. This is even more evident when you look at other spells like Speak with Plants. Note also, that these are Divination spells.

Thus, the magic must be doing more than just allowing you to speak "animal". However, in order for the spell to work, the subjects must actually be of type animal. But I see what you were going with, and it's really not that unreasonable.

[Jeff Merola]

I recommend a Ring of Eloquence to bypass the need of Wildspeech.

[Gauss]

Nice find Jeff Merola. :)

[James Risner]

claudekennilol wrote:

Druids can learn Sylvan, so as long as I pick that up I can speak it while shapechanged.

RAW rule you use to know this? Because unless the form has a Languages line and you know that language, many GM's will say "you can't speak".

[claudekennilol]

James Risner wrote:

claudekennilol wrote:

Druids can learn Sylvan, so as long as I pick that up I can speak it while shapechanged.

RAW rule you use to know this? Because unless the form has a Languages line and you know that language, many GM's will say "you can't speak".

prd, druid wrote:

Bonus Languages: A druid's bonus language options include Sylvan, the language of woodland creatures. This choice is in addition to the bonus languages available to the character because of her race.

prd, skill descriptions, linguistics wrote:

Sylvan (centaurs, fey creatures, plant creatures, unicorns)

Another question, do I retain my proficiencies while shape changed? Obviously I can't use a sword if I have no hand to wield it in, but do I retain my armor proficiencies to be able to don armor made for my new form?

[claudekennilol]

And here's another one

Saurian Shaman at 6th level gets

Quote:

Wild Shape (Su)

At 6th level, a saurian shaman’s wild shape ability functions at her druid level –2. If she takes on the form of a reptile or a dinosaur, she instead uses her druid level +2.

Does this delay wild shape to lvl 6, or alter the already gained wild shape at lvl 6?

[Jeff Merola]

claudekennilol wrote:

And here's another one

Saurian Shaman at 6th level gets

Quote:

Wild Shape (Su)

At 6th level, a saurian shaman’s wild shape ability functions at her druid level –2. If she takes on the form of a reptile or a dinosaur, she instead uses her druid level +2.

Does this delay wild shape to lvl 6, or alter the already gained wild shape at lvl 6?

Delays it to 6.

[claudekennilol]

Jeff Merola wrote:

Delays it to 6.

Thanks. That extra line would've made it much more clear.

claudekennilol wrote:

Another question, do I retain my proficiencies while shape changed? Obviously I can't use a sword if I have no hand to wield it in, but do I retain my armor proficiencies to be able to don armor made for my new form?

Anyone have an answer for this one?

[ShoulderPatch]

Regarding #4 and what's followed...

I recall a thread on this subject a long time ago (I'm talking '09 or '10 at least). Thought it was on here but could be mistaken, can't find it now, might have been OotS forums or somewhere. Paraphrasing it's conclusions to these question...

Regarding just Sylvan
In order for the creature to speak it by RAW it must be listed on it's language entry in the bestiary (as that is the more specific rule). Treants for example can speak it. Assassin Vines cannot.

Regarding language use in general
Additionally, by RAW, if a creature can speak a language it can theoretically speak any language (could physically do it) because of the way Pathfinder handles languages.
So, for example, if you polymorph into a Treant or Elemental you could speak all languages you know because their form is capable of language use... though you don't automatically gain the Treants or Elementals languages specifically (as they are not something listed in the spell, ability, or general polymorph rules as something you gain).

[claudekennilol]

Here's another question. If I'm a large cat and there's another PC on my back, and we're acting on our own initiative, and I pounce (if I charge), is the PC on my back also charging?

[LazarX]

claudekennilol wrote:

Jeff Merola wrote:

Delays it to 6.

Thanks. That extra line would've made it much more clear.

claudekennilol wrote:

Another question, do I retain my proficiencies while shape changed? Obviously I can't use a sword if I have no hand to wield it in, but do I retain my armor proficiencies to be able to don armor made for my new form?

Anyone have an answer for this one?

You retain your proficiencies but they are effectively useless to you. As far as armor goes you'd either have to have armor especially made or have the Wild enchantment upon your standard armor. Your druid restrictions still apply.

You do understand that you get the natural attacks for your form, don't you?

[Byakko]

claudekennilol: The mounted combat rules are already a mess, and adding this to the mix just makes it more complicated. Discuss this with the GM and hopefully come to an arrangement to just use typical mounted combat rules, including charging together (on the same initiative count).

As for all these polymorph related questions, just imagine your character is wearing an elaborate costume. Everything about your character essentially remains the same, except for your outer "skin" which will affect how you can physically interact with the environment. The only things which change are those specifically spelled out by the polymorph rules and the specific spell/effect in question.

[claudekennilol]

LazarX wrote:

claudekennilol wrote:

Jeff Merola wrote:

Delays it to 6.

Thanks. That extra line would've made it much more clear.

claudekennilol wrote:

Another question, do I retain my proficiencies while shape changed? Obviously I can't use a sword if I have no hand to wield it in, but do I retain my armor proficiencies to be able to don armor made for my new form?

Anyone have an answer for this one?

You retain your proficiencies but they are effectively useless to you. As far as armor goes you'd either have to have armor especially made or have the Wild enchantment upon your standard armor. Your druid restrictions still apply.

You do understand that you get the natural attacks for your form, don't you?

Yes, I understand I get the natural attacks. I just wanted to make sure I didn't lose my armor proficiency before I worry about buying special armor.