Timbo8705 |
I've spent the last hour or so scouring the internet to find the answer to this question, but to no avail so I thought I'd put it to you all.
Ghost touch armor says:
This armor or shield seems almost translucent. Both its enhancement bonus and its armor bonus count against the attacks of corporeal and incorporeal creatures. It can be picked up, moved, and worn by corporeal and incorporeal creatures alike. Incorporeal creatures gain the armor's or shield's enhancement bonus against both corporeal and incorporeal attacks, and they can still pass freely through solid objects.
My problem with this is that in the last sentence it says incorporeal creatures gain the armor's or shield's ENHANCEMENT BONUS against both corporeal and incorporeal attacks. Does this mean that if an incorporeal creature...let's say a ghost...was to wear Ghost Touch armor that didn't have an enhancement bonus, then it wouldn't get any bonus to AC from the armor?
For example, I have built a ghost ranger who is wearing Ghost Touch Breastplate. The breastplate has an armor bonus of +6, but no enhancement bonus from being magical. Does that mean the ghost doesn't get the +6 armor bonus?
Timbo8705 |
Not to be a pain, but while I'm on the subject: Does a Ghost Touch weapon attack AC, or Touch AC when wielded by a ghost? Incorporeal attacks go against Touch AC, and in the description for Ghost Touch weapons it says at the end of the entry that the weapons "count as both corporeal OR incorporeal". So would a Ghost Touch weapon, in the hands of a ghost, be treated as an incorporeal attack and go against Touch AC, or would it be treated as a corporeal attack against AC wielded by an incorporeal creature?
Raziel Hethune |
"Both its enhancement bonus and its armor bonus count against the attacks of corporeal and incorporeal creatures." Seems to count only when a corporeal creature wears it, so your ghost would only get the enhancement bonus to AC. As for the Ghost Touch weapon property, it simply negates the incorporeal 50% miss chance. In a ghost's hands it would deal regular weapon attacks against corporeal foes, and against other ghosts would ignore the 50% miss chance. The weapon affects incorporeal foes as if they were corporeal, and allows incorporeal creatures to hit corporeally while still being able to pass through objects.
Also: In complete agreement that the rule that you need at least a +1 before enchanting with properties sucks balls. I usually ignore it as a rule and use the total enhancement bonus for determinations.
Timbo8705 |
But the armor entry also states that it can be worn by both corporeal and incorporeal creatures. If the armor can be worn by both, and both it's enhancement and armor bonus count against both attacks, why wouldn't the ghost get the armor bonus as well as the enhancement bonus?
If we're following that thought process, then by the same RAW that would also mean that in the hands of a ghost the Ghost Touch weapon would ignore armor, natural armor, and shield bonuses from corporeal creatures (unless mage armor or deflection bonuses are present) because it counts as an attack and an incorporeal creature's attacks ignore those bonuses when attacking.
Also, I'm not sure where you're getting the 50% miss chance, but only magic weapons or spells (spell like abilities, supernatural abilities, etc.) can affect an incorporeal creature and even then if the damage is from a physical effect (magic weapon, fire, lightning, etc.) it deals half damage or if it doesn't deal damage it has a 50% chance to fail.
Raziel Hethune |
Ah, sorry about that, I meant the 50% damage reduction don't know why I typed miss chance. Anyway, it states that it acts as both corporeal and incorporeal, but by your reasoning wouldn't a corporeal creature using it on another corporeal creature use it as a touch attack? No. It treats incorporeal creatures as corporeal for attacks and allows incorporeal creatures to wield/wear corporeal objects (which normally they can't affect at all, their touch attacks aren't physically affecting corporeal bodies, its a negative energy effect) That is what it meant when they stated it is both incorporeal and corporeal.
Matthew Downie |
If the armor can be worn by both, and both it's enhancement and armor bonus count against both attacks, why wouldn't the ghost get the armor bonus as well as the enhancement bonus?
It's possible that they mean that it doesn't get the armor bonus because the armor becomes more incorporeal when worn by a ghost so the ghost can still pass through solid objects.
Then again, the RAW is ambiguous. "Both its enhancement bonus and its armor bonus count against the attacks of corporeal and incorporeal creatures." It never actually says "incorporeals don't get the armor bonus" (just that they do get the enhancement bonus) so a GM could justifiably allow a ghost to get the full benefit.
Timbo8705 |
Matthew, that's where I'm having the difficulty. The rules go out the way to point out that the incorporeal creature get's the enhancement bonus against both types of attacks, but already states that they get to wear the item and makes it sound like they get both. Better wording would have solved this issue.
Raziel, the problem with your argument is that it doesn't say that the weapon is treated as corporeal and incorporeal, it says it is treated as corporeal OR incorporeal. If it is treated as incorporeal in the hands of an incorporeal creature it would attack and ignore the armor, natural armor, and shield bonuses. A corporeal creature is not incorporeal and so they could not attack with it as an incorporeal weapon, but an incorporeal creature is and could. Again, better wording in this situation would have solved this problem.
Timbo8705 |
I feel like I'm going to have to go with the decision that only the enhancement bonus applies to incorporeal creatures and ditch the armor (it's not worth the party getting a $16k item from one CR 6 creature).
As for the scimitars...I'll go with them being incorporeal. It wouldn't seem right to rule one way on the armor and a different way on the weapons. They're not really strong either way, it's only a +1 bonus to hit and damage, and they don't get affected by the aging (not negative energy) from the ghost's touch.
Matthew Downie |
The ghost touch weapon can count as "both corporeal or incorporeal". That is bad grammar - you say "both .. and ..." or "either ... or ..." which adds to my suspicion that these entries weren't proof-read carefully enough.
I'm pretty sure when a ghost attacks a human with it, it's supposed to count as corporeal, since if incorporeal it wouldn't cause damage. (Although I can imagine an incorporeal magic sword that does 50% damage to humans and 100% damage to ghosts, but can't be held by a human...)
Timbo8705 |
But if I'm going to say that the weapon is "solid" when wielded by a ghost against a human then I would also have to say that the armor is "solid" when worn by a ghost being attacked by a human.
The problem here is that they spent too much time looking at this from the "human" side and not enough looking at it from the "ghost" side.
Raziel Hethune |
I agree that the wording is ambiguous, but let me try one more time.
A Ghost Touch weapon basically becomes "solid" to what ever it hits. Thus a human can hit a ghost, and a ghost can pass through a wall and stab a human. Ghost Touch armor/shields are less useful. They are "solid" to incorporeal creatures when corporeal creatures wear them because that is the point of their magic, however when ghosts use that magic to transform the physical armor itself incorporeal, the armor can't be solid and have a ghost wear it and all you get is the enhancement bonus. An armor bonus is the armors physical capacity to turn aside or blunt blows, if the armor counted as solid against corporeal foes then that means the ghost wearing it couldn't go through walls and it would be able to be hit/have its armor broken, and that would make it completely detrimental for them to wear it. Its the same reason why incorporeal creatures can't have NAT AC, they have little to no physical presence by their very nature. I would rule that a Ghost Touch armors' armor bonus applies against ghost touch weapons for incorporeal creatures though, so there is still a reason for them to wear it. And you are right, Ghost touch armor was not designed for ghosts, it was designed to fight them. I would tend to think of their properties when wielded by ghosts as accidental and that most magic arms/armor creators would look at them as being unavoidable side affects considering they just weaponized a vengeful ghost if the person buying the ghost touch items gets killed.
Timbo8705 |
The problem with what you're saying is that if the weapon "turns" solid when striking a solid foe, but is still incorporeal when going through other solid objects, then the armor should also count as being solid when being struck by solid foes but be able to pass through other solid objects. It doesn't make any more sense for the weapon to become solid than it does for the armor when wielded by an incorporeal creature.
I agree that the people who made the Ghost Touch special probably weren't considering that "ghosts" would be using them as much and so they didn't focus on that. They did, however, incorporate it into the function of the weapons, armors, and shields that possess the quality and so they should have taken more time to fully explore what that would mean.
KestrelZ |
I think there may be confusion at the term "enhancement bonus".
My interpretation is only opinion, yet this is how I view it -
Let us say there was a +1, ghost touch chain shirt. This is a total of +5 armor bonus (+4 chain shirt, +1 magic enhancement) - lets not complicate the item cost by factoring the ghost touch property.
If a ghost wore it, they would gain +5 AC bonus against tangible people and other ghosts alike. They can still pass through walls and the like, the magic armor protects the ghost in some spiritual / magical fashion as it would have when it was alive and corporeal. Weird, yet turnabout is fair play and enough ghosts have had armor with a full armor bonus to support this view in past published adventures.
If a person wore it, the +5 AC bonus would apply as an armor bonus against other people. The +5 AC would suddenly apply to a ghost's touch attack as well - hence the odd phrasing because touch attacks normally ignore armor, shield, and natural armor AC bonuses. The ghost touch item was meant to be an exception to this in the case of incorporeal touch attacks. It offers no additional protection from rays, firearms, spells, or any other corporeal attack that use touch attacks (much like force effects that help prevent incorporeal attacks, like mage armor).
Raziel Hethune |
The enhancement bonus on magical armor and weapons is the +1, it does not include the price for the bonus used for the ghost touch property or the armor bonus. So this means the ghost would only get the +1 to AC. Unless you are like myself and Scythia and homerule that you don't require at least a +1 bonus before you enchant, in which case you count the ghost touch property (+3 cost) then the ghost would get +4. The Ghost Touch armor property was not made to make ghosts tougher, it was designed to make it easier for players to fight them. In the case of an incorporeal creature it is usually easier just to use Mage Armor (armor bonus, wouldn't stack with the chain shirt anyway) or a ring of protection (deflection bonus to AC). Though if I remember correctly, incorporeal creatures get a Deflection Bonus to AC from their Charisma modifier, so Ring of Prot. might not work either.
Timbo8705 |
Just because the Ghost Touch property wasn't designed originally to make ghosts tougher doesn't mean that it doesn't do just that.
Had the writer simply said that the armor only works for corporeal creatures to resist incorporeal attacks then your point would be valid. Instead, they chose to say that both corporeal and incorporeal creatures can wear the armor. They said that it protects against both corporeal and incorporeal attacks. That's the problem. There is so much about it that is up for interpretation that it leaves a hole that has to be house ruled based on the situation.
To each their own, but as it is written Ghost Touch armor and weapons act like armor and weapons in the hands of corporeal or incorporeal creatures all the same.
2bz2p |
I have a confusion with Ghost Touched armor, weapons (or anything) and ghosts in general. While Ghost Touched weapons can be used by incorporeal creatures, incorporeal creatures have no strength score - so how can they pick it up? If they get to ignore that have no strength score, can a ghost throw a giant's boulder that has been "ghost touched"?
It is an unresolved flaw that could use much clearer language.
bbangerter |
If they get to ignore that have no strength score, can a ghost throw a giant's boulder that has been "ghost touched"?
It is an unresolved flaw that could use much clearer language.
There aren't any rules to cover this, so it comes down to: Ask your GM to make a reasonable ruling for a very edge case scenario.
(Though now I want to make an encounter with giant ghosts throwing ghost touched rocks).
toastedamphibian |
Hmmm. A few castings of Ghost Brand might be cheaper, with the added benefit of not adding confusing ghost crushing boulders to the local magic pawnshop.
Spirit Bound Blade has a shorter duration, but can simultaneously make them ghost touch returning boulders.
Edit: oooh! Stone Giant Shaman 11 with the ancestors spirit. So much Synergy narratively and mechanically. Also works if she is alive, or if she is dead. Immediate recurrence potential.