Timbo8705's page

Hi,

I need my subscription to Starfinder, which I previously requested canceled, to be canceled please. I do not want anything more to do with Starfinder, and after all the issues I've had I am questioning if I want anything to do with Paizo at all moving forward.

Timbo8705 wrote:

You want to relate it to a food line. We're not all in a food line. We are the subscribers, the people who paid to go through the line first. Then comes the online preorders, then comes the direct retail order, then comes the late orders.

By your analogy, this is a huge banquet. The subscribers are those with 'early admission tickets.' They let everyone with those tickets in first. There is still going to be a line among those people.

It actually wasn't analogy, it was from a previous post. Here's the problem, we're not at a banquet. We're talking about a company that is taking money for a product and processing orders in a way that gives the product to people early for no reason. If they say the book won't ship until the 18th, but subscribers get the PDF unlocked on the 13th you can still charge the subscription price without giving early access to anyone.

Somewhat unrelated to the above discussion, but I really wish the book containing the actual encounters for the game had been published alongside the CRB instead of 2 months down the line. I guess the Pathfinder CRB did the same thing, but at least then you could use the existing 3.5 monsters without having to put them through a whole conversion process.

Honestly this was almost what put me off from buying Starfinder at all. The idea that in today's gaming world you can release a "core rulebook" with pages and pages of splat about a campaign setting (which is still coming out in a book later anyway) but have nothing as far as encounters, npcs, monsters, or anything was too much. I spent several hours making npcs of the classes for levels 3, 5, and 7 just to have some base line until I found the free download with single monsters in WIDE CR range gaps.

As a DM I nearly always build my own setting, even with Starfinder I have done, and so the splat did nothing but take up paper and ink for me. Monsters would have added something. Well, monsters besides a CR 20 Goblin I should say.

Seeing as it seems we have to clarify this.. I do not have mine either. I would very much like to have it but that is the way the system works and im fine with that. When the original release hit I got mine very early like the first couple days of shipping this time around im back of the pack and that's ok for me. I get that its just a byproduct of how their system is programed and a probably (I am assuming because I don't work there) also a policy because holding off to batch process all those PDFs until each and every person gets there order processed also has, as others have pointed out, legal and customer service issues all their own.

For instance I dont really want to have to wait, again I dont have mine either, but I like that I get it when it ships and I am ok with the current system. Plenty of others are as well so as a company if the ONLY issue was perceived value and customer service they are still going to aggravate a portion of their customer base. Add to this the fact that their are probably legal issues as well as opening them up to all sorts of headaches of having to create a whole new system to process these orders and insure that indeed each and every order that is getting a PDF was shipped probably makes it a not cost effective thing for them to do.

Its a perk not something we are entitled to. Their are plenty of other ways to purchase their products and no service they offer is going to completely satisfy everyone. You have to do what...

Here's the thing, the PDF advertises it launches on the 18th. There is no legal action you can take against the company unless you pay for it and the 18th comes around you still don't have it. As long as they make it available by that day they are covered in all legal aspects. You can process a payment a month in advance, but you don't have to deliver the product until it's advertised. If they had said all subscribers will get the PDF by the 13th, but orders will process starting the 28th then it'd be fine. The way they are handling it, however, is the problem.

Even better they can charge the cover price of the book now, give access to the PDF with the understanding that the physical copy will be shipped at the earliest possible time. There are several ways better to handle this situation than what they are doing.

I understand there's a large demand for this product, there's not 2 weeks worth of back subscriptions demand. If they're going to wait till they can send the book they might have to wait till November, does that mean I'll have wait till November? If you're not paying to get it earlier than anyone else at anytime no mater the "random order" your processed in, than you should have no problem waiting till a finite date to get your copy.

It's nice that I haven't been charged yet for a product I don't have. It's nice that they say they randomize the order in which they process so the same people aren't last to get it every time. It doesn't negate the point that they shouldn't be giving out the product when everyone who pays the same amount hasn't had the opportunity.

You want to relate it to a food line. We're not all in a food line. We are the subscribers, the people who paid to go through the line first. Then comes the online preorders, then comes the direct retail order, then comes the late orders.

Them having a large quantity of orders to place doesn't mean that some people should get it earlier. That is a BOON even if you don't believe it is. Someone got the product that we are all paying for two weeks earlier than the rest of us.

I also have not had my subscription ship yet, and I also think that it's a ridiculous thing to get hung up about. The notion that no one else should ever get it before me seems ridiculous. And also like it would invite the website going down as a large chunk of the subscribers all try to download their product at the same time.

Large chunks of subscribers can download the product at the same time any time. That's not a good enough reason to give access to some people earlier than others.

Timbo8705 wrote:

Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:

Timbo8705 wrote:

Why am I paying for a service if it's a coin toss that it's even providing what I'm paying for?

As the others on this thread have stated, you are not paying to get it early. In fact, you're not paying anything extra for a subscription at all, you're paying for the Hardcover, same price as everyone else, and you're getting the PDF for free.

It's really disheartening to see all these "If I don't get it early no one should" mindsets.

What's really disheartening is that you don't seem to get that it's pretty messed that you and I are paying the same price for the same product and yet you already have the product (in this case the digital download PDF) and I (as well as quite a few others it seems) do not. If you truly believe the only thing you get with your subscription is the hardcover copy of the book and the free pdf you should have no issue with not having it early since that's not part of what you're paying for.

I do not have the product yet, in any form, and you are right, I have no problem not getting it early. I'm perfectly fine with others getting it before me.

My mistake, having read one of your previous posts it made it seem like you had the pdf already, I misread. I understand you're not upset by not getting the same product that everyone is paying for at the same time. Great, more power to you. That is your opinion and you are entitled to it, that doesn't make it fair, and that doesn't make it right. People are paying the same price and some of us are getting preferential treatment by getting a boon of having the product earlier when they aren't paying more than anyone else.

Maybe we can talk about the book in this thread instead of arguing over the inherent fairness/unfairness of Paizo's shipping and fulfillment process?

(For the record, I think that the system, while imperfect, is as fair as it can be given the constraints of physical reality.)

I would love to discuss the book. Please do go into explicit detail over every square inch of each page cover to cover for me. I ask you to do this since I don't have a copy of the book to be able to comment on the contents myself.

As I don't have the book to discuss the contents I am stuck talking about the aspect of the book that I can discuss, the lack of it.

Timbo8705 wrote:

Why am I paying for a service if it's a coin toss that it's even providing what I'm paying for?

As the others on this thread have stated, you are not paying to get it early. In fact, you're not paying anything extra for a subscription at all, you're paying for the Hardcover, same price as everyone else, and you're getting the PDF for free.

It's really disheartening to see all these "If I don't get it early no one should" mindsets.

What's really disheartening is that you don't seem to get that it's pretty messed that you and I are paying the same price for the same product and yet you already have the product (in this case the digital download PDF) and I (as well as quite a few others it seems) do not. If you truly believe the only thing you get with your subscription is the hardcover copy of the book and the free pdf you should have no issue with not having it early since that's not part of what you're paying for.

What you are paying for is the hardcover book. Even if yours is the last copy to ship, you are getting what you are paying for (the hard copy of the book) and a free bonus (the pdf). On top of that, you are getting the pdf before it can be purchased.

Except others are getting the PDF weeks ahead of time and we're apparently paying the price. That's MY issue. I get that I'm getting the book in hardcover, I get that I'm getting a free copy of the PDF, something that frankly should come with the hardcover copy anyway when purchased from the publisher directly as I am. I have no issue with that. I have an issue with some of the people who pay for the service I am paying for already getting their product when I haven't. If it's an issue with order processing I get that, I'm fine with that, but then don't send out ANY of the PDFs before the last order processes. In an effort of fairness, that seems like the fair thing to do.

Agent Eclipse wrote:

The big problem here isn't that we are waiting on the physical copy to ship but that subscribers aren't even getting access to the PDF while we wait. It is insane that some subscribers are getting access to the PDFs while others are not. It does make you rethink the subscriptions.

There are many reasons they do this. One is a perk of subscribing to get it for free not necessarily to get it early. Two the system doesnt release the PDF until the account is actually charged. IF they changed it so everyone got the PDF at the same time then no one would get it until all the orders had shipped which would be a huge downer and a pretty big ding to the whole perk to begin with. If they released the PDF before the book actually shipped this simply opens up a window for disreputable people to cancel their order once they had the PDF and lead to loss of sales.

However honestly if your playing online through a app like roll20 like myself then the free PDF is the pay off here as its necessary for me anyway but I prefer to read and collect the real book.

It's a pretty big ding to the whole perk being one of the only people who doesn't have access to it despite being a subscriber. If early access isn't part of the perk, it shouldn't be part of the perk for everyone, not just a select few whose orders processed slower. There is no understandable reason for anyone to have the PDF already if everyone doesn't have it. If that means they have to wait until the 18th when the street copies go live to unlock the downloads then so be it, but it's not right some people have now and others don't, despite having the same subscription. Why am I paying for a service if it's a coin toss that it's even providing what I'm paying for?

What do I do with animals, specifically in the context of shapechanging through either spellwork or in this specific case lycanthropy?

I have a Hill Giant (CR 7, as though you didn't know) that has been recruited by werewolves to help attack a city. The Hill Giant is now a lycanthrope. Two things: Does the Hill Giant really lose natural armor by becoming a hybrid as the RAW states (goes from +9 Hill Giant to +5 Lycanthrope for Dire Wolf Nat +3 with the increased +2 for lycanthrope) or would it keep the higher more sensible +9 for still being a flipping Hill Giant just a hairier version thereof; and what do I do about the Dire Wolf as far as it is concerned, does it just stay as a plain CR 3 Dire Wolf or do I increase it's HD to match the Hill Giant and "level" it up?

Do I really just use the statistics from Hill Giant Werewolf, but when it's in Dire Wolf form I use the Dire Wolf speed and Natural Armor meaning I draw attacks, saves, and everything else from the Hill Giant Werewolf and just ignore everything that isn't speed/natural attacks from the Dire Wolf?

Just because the Ghost Touch property wasn't designed originally to make ghosts tougher doesn't mean that it doesn't do just that.
Had the writer simply said that the armor only works for corporeal creatures to resist incorporeal attacks then your point would be valid. Instead, they chose to say that both corporeal and incorporeal creatures can wear the armor. They said that it protects against both corporeal and incorporeal attacks. That's the problem. There is so much about it that is up for interpretation that it leaves a hole that has to be house ruled based on the situation.
To each their own, but as it is written Ghost Touch armor and weapons act like armor and weapons in the hands of corporeal or incorporeal creatures all the same.

If you're high enough level to have produced the Ghost Touch item, theoretically you're also going to have some defense against said magical items. Dispells, anti-magic fields, etc. Risk/reward, am I right?

The problem with what you're saying is that if the weapon "turns" solid when striking a solid foe, but is still incorporeal when going through other solid objects, then the armor should also count as being solid when being struck by solid foes but be able to pass through other solid objects. It doesn't make any more sense for the weapon to become solid than it does for the armor when wielded by an incorporeal creature.

I agree that the people who made the Ghost Touch special probably weren't considering that "ghosts" would be using them as much and so they didn't focus on that. They did, however, incorporate it into the function of the weapons, armors, and shields that possess the quality and so they should have taken more time to fully explore what that would mean.

It would be easier to say that the armor is solid against corporeal attacks rather than the scimitars are incorporeal but still do solid damage.

But if I'm going to say that the weapon is "solid" when wielded by a ghost against a human then I would also have to say that the armor is "solid" when worn by a ghost being attacked by a human.

The problem here is that they spent too much time looking at this from the "human" side and not enough looking at it from the "ghost" side.

I feel like I'm going to have to go with the decision that only the enhancement bonus applies to incorporeal creatures and ditch the armor (it's not worth the party getting a $16k item from one CR 6 creature).

As for the scimitars...I'll go with them being incorporeal. It wouldn't seem right to rule one way on the armor and a different way on the weapons. They're not really strong either way, it's only a +1 bonus to hit and damage, and they don't get affected by the aging (not negative energy) from the ghost's touch.

Matthew, that's where I'm having the difficulty. The rules go out the way to point out that the incorporeal creature get's the enhancement bonus against both types of attacks, but already states that they get to wear the item and makes it sound like they get both. Better wording would have solved this issue.

Raziel, the problem with your argument is that it doesn't say that the weapon is treated as corporeal and incorporeal, it says it is treated as corporeal OR incorporeal. If it is treated as incorporeal in the hands of an incorporeal creature it would attack and ignore the armor, natural armor, and shield bonuses. A corporeal creature is not incorporeal and so they could not attack with it as an incorporeal weapon, but an incorporeal creature is and could. Again, better wording in this situation would have solved this problem.

But the armor entry also states that it can be worn by both corporeal and incorporeal creatures. If the armor can be worn by both, and both it's enhancement and armor bonus count against both attacks, why wouldn't the ghost get the armor bonus as well as the enhancement bonus?

If we're following that thought process, then by the same RAW that would also mean that in the hands of a ghost the Ghost Touch weapon would ignore armor, natural armor, and shield bonuses from corporeal creatures (unless mage armor or deflection bonuses are present) because it counts as an attack and an incorporeal creature's attacks ignore those bonuses when attacking.

Also, I'm not sure where you're getting the 50% miss chance, but only magic weapons or spells (spell like abilities, supernatural abilities, etc.) can affect an incorporeal creature and even then if the damage is from a physical effect (magic weapon, fire, lightning, etc.) it deals half damage or if it doesn't deal damage it has a 50% chance to fail.

Good point, missed that, I also usually ignore that rule, but RAW it is there. However, would that mean that the ghost in my example would only get a +1 to his AC from the enhancement bonus, or a +7 (+1 enhancement, +6 armor) bonus?

Not to be a pain, but while I'm on the subject: Does a Ghost Touch weapon attack AC, or Touch AC when wielded by a ghost? Incorporeal attacks go against Touch AC, and in the description for Ghost Touch weapons it says at the end of the entry that the weapons "count as both corporeal OR incorporeal". So would a Ghost Touch weapon, in the hands of a ghost, be treated as an incorporeal attack and go against Touch AC, or would it be treated as a corporeal attack against AC wielded by an incorporeal creature?

I've spent the last hour or so scouring the internet to find the answer to this question, but to no avail so I thought I'd put it to you all.

Ghost touch armor says:

This armor or shield seems almost translucent. Both its enhancement bonus and its armor bonus count against the attacks of corporeal and incorporeal creatures. It can be picked up, moved, and worn by corporeal and incorporeal creatures alike. Incorporeal creatures gain the armor's or shield's enhancement bonus against both corporeal and incorporeal attacks, and they can still pass freely through solid objects.

My problem with this is that in the last sentence it says incorporeal creatures gain the armor's or shield's ENHANCEMENT BONUS against both corporeal and incorporeal attacks. Does this mean that if an incorporeal creature...let's say a ghost...was to wear Ghost Touch armor that didn't have an enhancement bonus, then it wouldn't get any bonus to AC from the armor?

For example, I have built a ghost ranger who is wearing Ghost Touch Breastplate. The breastplate has an armor bonus of +6, but no enhancement bonus from being magical. Does that mean the ghost doesn't get the +6 armor bonus?