I'm not a huge fan of having two weak saves to make things interesting, especially not THOSE saves. Blowing a Reflex save hurts. Blowing Fort saves can result in instant death at higher levels, and blowing Will saves can also kill you or make you kill your friends. Being able to avoid ONE of those most of the time without spending a limited resource would have been nice. The Swashbuckler is a combination of the Fighter and the Gunslinger. It should have Gunslinger saves, like the Brawler and Slayer do. Who rolls a swash that can't hold his drink as well as a priest?Well I'm not a fan either, really. But many frontliners have this problem, I'm just used to deal with it and I don't feel like it makes this class unplayable or even under par.
And I'm with you on the drinking problem. My swashbuckler is a night owl and a heavy social drikner. But guess what, I made him unable to handle alcohol, and it became a fun ropleplaying perk.It would have been more keeping in the all-day advantage of martial classes if the Swashbuckler had kept its weak saves but been compensated by making Charmed life like a Canny Defense for Saves; as you level up, you get an increasing charisma bonus to all your saves at all times, no actions required. One, this would let the Swashbuckler parry/riposte and use all of their deeds without sacrificing their Charmed Life usage, two, you can't argue it's overpowered since Paladins, an extremely balanced class, get full Charisma to saves at level 2 AND have two strong saves to begin with, and three, it lets the Swashbuckler focus on his deeds and panache rather than trying to track two separately draining pools that use up the same action to activate.I'm gonna have to disagree here on paladins. I do find them overpowered or, at least, unbalanced. The +Cha to saves appears to me (and my whole group) like a totally cheesy add to a class that already has full BAB, casting ability, self healing or a dman swift...
You would hate my paladin then.. well he is a Gestalt of Paladin and Swashbuckler.
When I said the sob thing about Wizards I was being sarcastic for sure but meant no offense. My point was is the Swashbuckler scares the DM then what does he do when a real broken class shows up.
I wasn't offended at all by your post, I don't think anyone was. And I actually think exactly like you: if OP's GM thibnks swashbuckler is overpowered, then he should ban Barbarians and wizards.
I was just trying to show that, after reading the whole thread, I thought a lot that was coming up is "they do x and y and z a lot worse than, say, the Barbarian"
Which is quite obvious, really, but doesn't mean it's a bad class.
You would hate my paladin then.. well he is a Gestalt of Paladin and Swashbuckler.
I wouldn't hate you really, since you'd help my party survive!
But boy, Merwick Finn, my swashbuckler, would give him a hard time for picking up the easy way! ;)
Easy way my butt lol
But yeah my character is based kind of off Alister from Dragon Age in that he uses a Buckler Shield and Bastard Sword and Bastard Sword is costing me a feat. Almost took Falcata since we can use AEG Merceneries but Bastard is more iconic of Alister.
How you feel and what people mean are not the same thing.Ok, you're right I apologize for mindreading. I'm gonna shut up and let others do the talk.
The class is still effective if one pays for all the necessary feats. But nowhere near as strong as some pure Strength builds or Archery builds available (2-handed Power Attack Barbarian or Zen Archer as primary examples)The Swashbuckler is fairly terrible, actually. Overuse of the swift action means that the Swash will rarely get to use many of her tools, and even the ones that you can use are nowhere near as strong as the Barbarian/Paladin/Ranger.I am now very curious what this GM does when someone rolls a wizard, does he just sob? Cause there is seriously no comparison in terms of power. What about Barbarians do they have to use d8s at your table as well?The Swashbuckler's balance is just fine. If anything, the class is actually rather weak. It's easily out-damaged by a fighter, ranger, or barbarian making use of a two-handed weapon, and it is laughably outclassed as a mobile damage-dealer by the Brawler with his Pummeling Style online.If you compare Swashbuckler to other core classes like Barbarian or Wizard, there's definitely nothing unbalanced about the Swash.The Barbarian, the cavalier and, depending on the enemies, the paladin can deal the same amount of damage. And often with less feats needed.So someone can feel free to direct me to a Barbarian of mwahaha DeathA single level of SB (or daring champion Cavalier) followed by 19 of Urban Barbarian is also much better (...) Also, Barbarians can have both flight and Pounce. Plus a lot of other cool tricks, like breaking magic.Any marginally well built two handed Barbarian or Fighter is...
A fighter can easily be made more effective than a swash as well, or maybe even a cavalier without his mount.
the swash is a take of an ineffective play style and trying to make it stand up next to competition, it definitely does push it into the realm of effectiveness, but still other classes do the mundane martial better.
the swash's problem is that it isn't as good as most other martials when you apply all of them in an optimized environment. or better, when optimizing classes, the swash doesn't give much in the way to make it really stand out at anything.
the swash's problem is that it isn't as good as most other martials when you apply all of them in an optimized environment. or better, when optimizing classes, the swash doesn't give much in the way to make it really stand out at anything.
I'm curious, have you played a swash for more than couple levels? On paper, it may not seem "optimal", because it doesn't have the highest DPR. But they are incredibly fun to play, because you have so many dang options, and can do some really cool stuff out-of-the-box that makes them so much more dynamic than a fighter.
the swash's problem is that it isn't as good as most other martials when you apply all of them in an optimized environment. or better, when optimizing classes, the swash doesn't give much in the way to make it really stand out at anything.I'm curious, have you played a swash for more than couple levels? On paper, it may not seem "optimal", because it doesn't have the highest DPR. But they are incredibly fun to play, because you have so many dang options, and can do some really cool stuff out-of-the-box that makes them so much more dynamic than a fighter.
the question wasn't how fun they were, but why people keep claiming other classes are better.
and alas, i'm stuck in GM land, so no i haven't "played" a swash.
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the swash's problem is that it isn't as good as most other martials when you apply all of them in an optimized environment. or better, when optimizing classes, the swash doesn't give much in the way to make it really stand out at anything.I'm curious, have you played a swash for more than couple levels? On paper, it may not seem "optimal", because it doesn't have the highest DPR. But they are incredibly fun to play, because you have so many dang options, and can do some really cool stuff out-of-the-box that makes them so much more dynamic than a fighter.
I mentioned before about watching a Swashy in play and I commented that they did "okay".
What I didn't include was the fun time they were having being all active. The bigger problem was actually that the GM was trying to adjust to having someone who could basically do some extra jazz everyone round. Before this he would just roll dice and check our ACs but he kept forgetting about the Parry ability or the Dodge.Ive had similar issues with a Magus who has the Flamboyant Arcana, I basically have to tell the DM that if anyone attacks me I want to party parry.
If there are any issues I can really see with the Swash it's that their baked in class abilities disrupt the normal flow of gameplay a tad.
Ive had similar issues with a Magus who has the Flamboyant Arcana, I basically have to tell the DM that if anyone attacks me I want to party.
fixed that for you
I want to try a Kasatha Swashbuckler, at least till level 5 to get Improved Critical and the Parry and Reposte deed is nice to have.
Now Kasatha are OP at any martial class, because well they have four attacks instead of one. So Precise Strike would be a Loss for them not a gain right? At least compared to the damage output of 4 rapiers or Kukris if I am using Slashing Grace right?
I believe Kasatha Swashbucklers are best off going Strength-based with unarmed strikes. Although you could always just get an Agile Amulet of Mighty fists, which is worth it if you're focusing on parry, because of Combat Reflexes.
They get a bonus to Dex so Dex based To hit and damage would make them lethal.
Also with Emei Piercers turn Unarmed Attacks into Piercing Damage.
But also four weapons at 15-20/x2 a turn is a lot of power.
Easier just to go Snake style and pick up an Amulet of Mighty Fists and make it agile.
True enough, Unless you allow Dreamscarred Press. That has Deadly Agility for anything that can be weapon finessed. Which when paired with Swashbuckler makes virtually any light or one handed piercing weapon do Dex to Damage.
EDIT: Also think of Butterfly Sting in a build with four arms.