So like,
Improved Weapon Finesse (Combat)
Prerequisites: 15 dex, Weapon Finesse
Benefit: When using a finessable weapon your critical threat range with that weapon increases by 1 and you get a +2 bonus on critical confirmation checks. This bonus stacks with Improved Critical but is not doubled by it.
Example; a scimitar wielder with Improved Critical and Improved Weapon Finesse has 14-20 critical threat range.
I would replace all forms of dex to damage with class features that basically do the same thing, so a gunslinger would end up with 19-20 on a specific firearm. I think this could lead to some problems with magi and gunslingers (19-20/4x... ouch).
Also, possibly Greater Weapon Finesse (requires 17 dex, IWF), does the same stuff as IWF but stacks with it, etc.
I plan on testing this stuff out in my homegame soon, but I would like to know what huge problems this could cause. My games never go past level 12, so anything after that is irrelevant to me.
It would be bad news for most dex based melee guys since the base damage that get multiplyed on a crit is pften the main part of damage. Studied combat, precise strike, sneek attack are exampels of this.
It would be bad news for most dex based melee guys since the base damage that get multiplyed on a crit is pften the main part of damage. Studied combat, precise strike, sneek attack are exampels of this.
You appear to be correct. The rough numbers I just ran indicate an 18 dex, 8 bab, piranha strike, improved critical, shortsword build with dex to damage does almost 4 more damage on average than the higher crit-rate guy.
Maybe I jumped the gun by only doing Elven Curve Blade vs Greataxe calculations.
For magi it May be better.
I have made several feats that allow better damage, AC and an extra 5 for step and that all need High dex. But i May revisor them for my next game since i Will allow more attacks when martials move.
For magi it May be better.
I have made several feats that allow better damage, AC and an extra 5 for step and that all need High dex. But i May revisor them for my next game since i Will allow more attacks when martials move.
I like the idea of getting an extra 5' step.
Maybe I'll make it a +2 to critical threat range (as just one feat, requiring 17 dex) that only works on Attack action and Full-Attack action ("suck it, magi. you can't get it with spell combat.")
It's clear enough the core game only wants few niche DX-to-damage builds.
But this is homebrew. What about DX-to-damage are you trying to "fix" besides including more weapons? Do you think it makes DX too vital a stat?
I want Dex combatants to get something that makes sense ("muh realism ") but does not solely help free-hand-one-handed Dex combatants. I feel that straight Dex to damage is immersion breaking with how unrealistic it is, while being good at landing crits is exactly what a skilled dex combatant should be. I know realism is a poor argument in a fantasy setting, but hey, I discuss this kind of stuff with my players before implenting it.
I want twf and 2h Dex builds to not be excluded by the " you need a free hand" that stuff like dervish dance (and other feats, but maybe one the several lets you twf or 2h).
Also, I'm not a fan of being that overly dependent on stats (especially single stats), I hate it when someone min-maxs and dumps stats (even my fighters and barbs have 12 int, wish and cha). I want a elven curve blade crit build without dump strength (14 str for 1.5x and power attack) to be actually good. I think my feat idea certainly helps the elven curve bladers and twf'ers, especially twf if I use Cap Darlings extra 5' step idea.
Sorry about the poorly written rant.
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Honestly, straight dex-to-damage doesn't really break immersion for me. There have been comments in actual sword-fighting teachings that there is a difference between strong swordplay from the brawn of the arm and wrist and strong swordplay from the effective placement of the cuts, for one thing, which speaks to dexterity fighters using their feats as training in how to strike precisely for more damage rather than just slugging away at the opponent with pure strength and a lot of wasted effort.
I also found this video fairly interesting, although it does point out that for an untrained character using a weapon with both hands IS less tiring than fighting with a one-handed weapon.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3OIjpLSaYQ&index=11&list=UUt14YOvY hd5FCGCwcjhrOdA
Skilled swordplay is the result of skill (BAB) not precision (Dex). The speed of a swing is determined by your muscles (str). A well pin-pointed precise strike (Dex with training) is a critical hit, it is not something you should get every attack.
You're a fool of you think having strength means you're sluggish. You need muscles to generate the speed and force behind your swings. Are you going to state other myths like that western swords were blunt and were just clubs?
Thank you for your input, but I was after reasons why this would be overpowered/underpowered and possible exploits.
@LoneKnave
I'm not very knowledgeable about the ACG classes, so thank you for notifying me of that exploit, I'll make a clause that states you can't do it with weapons that normal weapon finesse doesn't work with (closing that exploit).
I would be a fool if I thought having strength meant you were sluggish, which I why I never said that. I did say "slugging away" in the sense of swinging wildly to deal a maximum power cut anywhere you can rather than aiming (which is explicitly a dex-based skill that has nothing to do with Strength) at specific areas of the body for those precise strikes. A number of strength-based feats and abilities do speak of pure, wild brute force in their fluff, Power Attack in particular. That said, technical abilities that have very little to do with physical brawn are extremely important to using your sword more effectively than a club, and someone that wants to excel in combat in real life would need both. However, for the most part pathfinder in combat is based entirely on Strength and BAB while Dexterity reflects your speed, with the exception of ranged combat, which is mostly or ENTIRELY based on dexterity depending on your class and weapon.
That said, to go back to your point, I feel like a dexterity-based character having a particularly high crit rate is arguably going to be worse than just suspending your disbelief that speed and aim translate into attack and damage rolls in a world where people can hurl acid blobs from nowhere ad infinitum with very little training. One, crits end up creating a LOT of damage compared to a normal powerful attack, and two, building around crit-fishing means that a dex character is pretty likely to get the more devastating powers that key off being able to land critical hits more often and focus on triggering those on a regular basis. It ends up being a build that is either very unimpressive when the dice aren't kind or absolutely devastating when their rolls are high.
I'm also curious why you feel the gunslinger should not get dex-to-damage at all. With the way guns are designed, you'll get to crit on three numbers at the very best and your critfails are much more dangerous to you than any other weapon. The gun is basically just a much worse Crossbow under such rules,...
Forgive me for misreading, I typed that out on my phone. Do you really think that most warriors simply swing and hope it hits a good spot? Aiming your swing to hit the more vulnerable parts of armour isn't some super secret complicated thing, its a part of gereral martial skill and prowess (BAB).
I agree that power attack is like the swing as hard as you can and pray mentality.
How does dexterity reflect speed? Where is this stated? Do you think having precise digital movement allows you to move quicker?
I think BAB (skill) is far more important (and not using a bow made for someone way stronger than you) than how finely you can move your fingers.
Don't diss clubs :P
Magic doesn't break suspension of disbelief because I've already accepted that magic exists in the setting, all ordinary or extraordinary things only break immersion if they're unique in their ridiculousness (if all of them were ridiculous, then it would be fine).
Years of training isn't exactly "very little".
Crit-fishing could be a problem, I might make a clause that only the character with the feats can get a crit from the extra crit range or something. I don't think there is a reasonable solution to this, dex-to-damage is ridiculous but increased crit range is a little weak.
I love renaissance era firearms, but the pathfinder rules around them are completely rubbish. Worst part of Pathfinder. I think a well trained marksman should be able to more easily land a headshot/heartshot/whatever (which is a crit), but they shouldn't be guaranteed a +4 (or 3 or 5, etc) to damage on every shot. Maybe an alternate solution is the dex bonus is the minimum damage or something. In the current rules, a firearm is basically a ray attack from a wizard. Gunslingers might as well be magic by the rules, I bet there'll be an archetype or advanced class that is exactly that one day.
I'm not sure if the game as it is supports the idea. If things that double threat ranges didn't exist I think there's more design space to raise it by one or raise the critical multiplier. If that were the case I'd love for dex to play around with those numbers rather than simply applying dex to damage because it's so boring to just make one stat do another's job and it brings up the question as to why we cant get str to AC or initiative.
But as the game is, I don't think it's that great of a solution.
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Barathos,
In my game, "finesse" is a weapon quality, and Weapon Finesse (the feat) grants DX-to-damage, but, a ST penalty is still applied on top (if any), and the damage is not reduced for off-hand weapons (nor increased for 2H weapons).
This prevents my DX characters from dumping ST altogether and also inventivizes TWF. (I have further consolidated the first three TWF feats into a single feat).
Dunno if that helps. (Definitely not touching "realism"). It works great for me, ST characters are definitely still stronger damage dealers (that 1.5 really adds up), and I don't have to tamper with the complicated crit-math.
Thanks for the input, guys, you all make some good points. Pathfinder probably isn't the best system for something like this (still a great system though).