The Horsemen

[Shasfowd]

My local gaming store carries quite a few customers at pfs night that are mad because they can't worship the horsemen in PFS. I had no reason to think this wasn't true, until I came across the inner sea world guide, which had a table for the horsemen. The additional resources says "Gods: All gods listed in the tables on pages 229, 231, and 234 are legal for play;". Page 234 contains the horsmen chart. Was there a blog post about this I don't know about?

[Auriea]

They can worship them, but since the horsemen are evil, any divine caster has to be one step from the horsemen's alignment. Evil PCs are not allowed for society play. Unless of course I am missing a blog post as well.

[Ascalaphus]

As far as I know they're legal, through either Inner Sea World Guide or through Inner Sea Gods.

[The Fourth Horseman]

You rang?

[Shasfowd]

Go home horsemen, you don't have the domains I want.

[Auriea]

Horsey!

[Trelmarixian the Black]

I'm totally legal to worship. Please, I insist. Or else I eat you. >:)

[Chris Mortika]

Shadfowd, do I understand that one of the gameday GMs at your local store game is disallowing the Horsemen as legal gods? Hoes that GM have any support for his declaration?

[Sniggevert]

Chris Mortika wrote:

Shadfowd, do I understand that one of the gameday GMs at your local store game is disallowing the Horsemen as legal gods? Hoes that GM have any support for his declaration?

I'd assume he probably thought that the Horsemen counted as a Daemon Harbringer. That said, yes the actual 4 Horsemen appear to be legal.

[GM Lamplighter]

"Gods: All gods listed in the tables on pages 229, 231, and 234 are legal for play;"

Are the Four Horsemen gods? The Eldest and Empyreal lords aren't gods, either; neither are demon lords or other possible personae of worship. I think no, and so just being on those pages is trumped by the AR specifying "gods".

[Chris Mortika]

Yes, GM Lamplighter, they are gods. Not in the Mainline 20, but gods nonetheless. (The Chapter that begins on page 228 is entitled "Other Gods")

(At least, I've been allowing PCs to worship the Empyreal Lords and the Horsemen. (Indeed, I have PCs myself who worship one of each.) Is it your interpretation that those characters need to change the objects of their worship?)

[Shasfowd]

Chris Mortika wrote:

Shadfowd, do I understand that one of the gameday GMs at your local store game is disallowing the Horsemen as legal gods? Hoes that GM have any support for his declaration?

No no no, they want to worship them. I believe that they were simply looking at the wrong sources.

[Zach Klopfleisch]

GM Lamplighter wrote:

"Gods: All gods listed in the tables on pages 229, 231, and 234 are legal for play;"

Are the Four Horsemen gods? The Eldest and Empyreal lords aren't gods, either; neither are demon lords or other possible personae of worship. I think no, and so just being on those pages is trumped by the AR specifying "gods".

That's a... strange interpretation. After all, the only entries on 231 and 234 are Arch Devils, Demon Lords, Eldest, Elemental Lords, Empyrial Lords and the Horsemen. By your interpretation, none of the entries on 234 or 234 would be legal since they aren't called "gods" in the tables listed as legal. But since those are the only options on the listed pages, why were the pages listed as legal for play?

It you look a little closer, though, all of these categories fall under the heading "Outsider Demigods," explained on page 230, which says "A number of powerful, unique outsiders exist who, while not true gods, still have the capability to grant spells and are served on Golarian by cults of devoted worshippers."

Is it your assertion that, although the entries are listed as legal options, and the mechanics work the same for them as for "true gods," they aren't real options because the heading used in Additional Resources says only "Gods?"

Does the fact that the entry for Inner Sea Gods treats "daemon harbingers, great old ones, infernal dukes, malebranche, nascent demon lords, orc deities, outer gods, qlippoth lords, and whore queens" as gods who are not legal, even though they don't fit the definition of "true god? "

Which seems more reasonable: "Gods" as used in the Additional resources section implies only those defined in text not referenced by the Additional Resources as true gods. Or, "gods" as used by Additional resources references all the entries on the listed pages that give the mechanical benefits of domains, inquisitions, favored weapons, etc. even though none of the entries on those pages qualify as "true gods" based on text not covered by the Additional Resources entry.

I really don't see how there can be table variation on this.

[The Fourth Horseman]

I'm going with Chris on this one. I feel Lamplighter's interpretation is unnecessarily pedantic.

[Sniggevert]

GM Lamplighter wrote:

"Gods: All gods listed in the tables on pages 229, 231, and 234 are legal for play;"

Are the Four Horsemen gods? The Eldest and Empyreal lords aren't gods, either; neither are demon lords or other possible personae of worship. I think no, and so just being on those pages is trumped by the AR specifying "gods".

That's the AR for Inner Sea World Guide

The AR for Inner Sea Gods lists:

Quote:

Gods: all of the gods listed in the appendix are legal choices except daemon harbingers, great old ones, infernal dukes, malebranche, nascent demon lords, orc deities, outer gods, qlippoth lords, and whore queens;

The Horsemen, Demon Lords, Arch Devils, etc. are all in the appendix along with the excluded bunch...

[GM Lamplighter]

Hmm... Good point, Chris. That's what I get for trying to answer off the cuff!

I do like Chris' two-line answer of, "No, you're wrong" better than multiple paragraphs beating me for making a mistake, though. Asking someone if they think they're wrong multiple time in one post, before they have a chance to answer, is prett pointless.

[Andrew Christian]

Zach Klopfleisch wrote:

GM Lamplighter wrote:

"Gods: All gods listed in the tables on pages 229, 231, and 234 are legal for play;"

Are the Four Horsemen gods? The Eldest and Empyreal lords aren't gods, either; neither are demon lords or other possible personae of worship. I think no, and so just being on those pages is trumped by the AR specifying "gods".

That's a... strange interpretation. After all, the only entries on 231 and 234 are Arch Devils, Demon Lords, Eldest, Elemental Lords, Empyrial Lords and the Horsemen. By your interpretation, none of the entries on 234 or 234 would be legal since they aren't called "gods" in the tables listed as legal. But since those are the only options on the listed pages, why were the pages listed as legal for play?

It you look a little closer, though, all of these categories fall under the heading "Outsider Demigods," explained on page 230, which says "A number of powerful, unique outsiders exist who, while not true gods, still have the capability to grant spells and are served on Golarian by cults of devoted worshippers."

Is it your assertion that, although the entries are listed as legal options, and the mechanics work the same for them as for "true gods," they aren't real options because the heading used in Additional Resources says only "Gods?"

Does the fact that the entry for Inner Sea Gods treats "daemon harbingers, great old ones, infernal dukes, malebranche, nascent demon lords, orc deities, outer gods, qlippoth lords, and whore queens" as gods who are not legal, even though they don't fit the definition of "true god? "

Which seems more reasonable: "Gods" as used in the Additional resources section implies only those defined in text not referenced by the Additional Resources as true gods. Or, "gods" as used by Additional resources references all the entries on the listed pages that give the mechanical benefits of domains, inquisitions, favored weapons, etc. even though none of the entries on those pages qualify as "true gods" based on text not...

There shouldn't be any table variation on this. GM lamplighter is wrong on this one.

[Chris Mortika]

Not any more.

[Andrew Christian]

true

[Dragnmoon]

Here are the Legal Sources for all Deities that are legal.

Apollyon, Charon, Szuriel and Trelmarixian are all legal through The Inner Sea World Guide and Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Inner Sea Gods.

[Shasfowd]

Well keep in mind, CC ain't a god, but he sure struts around like one. The ability to worship a 'god' is more along the lines of harvesting their power, like worshiping cthulhu.

[Zach Klopfleisch]

GM Lamplighter wrote:

Hmm... Good point, Chris. That's what I get for trying to answer off the cuff!

I do like Chris' two-line answer of, "No, you're wrong" better than multiple paragraphs beating me for making a mistake, though. Asking someone if they think they're wrong multiple time in one post, before they have a chance to answer, is prett pointless.

That's pretty much my standard way of answering a rules question: I hate unsupported yes/no responses because they just invite argument. So I always try to document why an answer is what it is and how I came to that conclusion. In this case, I spent about 15 minutes looking through the additional resources and various books before responding. After all, you might have been right and my initial reaction might have been wrong. I even included a quote that could support your reasoning.

I didn't intend to spend multiple paragraphs berating you for making a mistake, I meant to lay out the evidence so you (and anyone else who runs across this thread in the future) could come to the correct conclusion.

[Imbicatus]

Auriea wrote:

They can worship them, but since the horsemen are evil, any divine caster has to be one step from the horsemen's alignment. Evil PCs are not allowed for society play. Unless of course I am missing a blog post as well.

This is not an issue in pathfnder. Clerics can be TN and worship NE gods. The 3.5 restriction that TN clerics must worship a TN deity was removed in the change to pathfinder.

[Nefreet]

Imbicatus wrote:

Auriea wrote:

They can worship them, but since the horsemen are evil, any divine caster has to be one step from the horsemen's alignment. Evil PCs are not allowed for society play. Unless of course I am missing a blog post as well.

This is not an issue in pathfnder. Clerics can be TN and worship NE gods. The 3.5 restriction that TN clerics must worship a TN deity was removed in the change to pathfinder.

I don't remember how it worked in 3.5, but in Pathfinder you must be within one alignment step (horizontal or vertical) of your chosen god to gain a mechanical benefit from them (such as a feat, a trait, or spells).

A True Neutral Cleric cannot worship a Lawful Evil god, for example.

Edit: wait, did you edit your post? I could've sworn you said "Lawful Evil" originally.

[Imbicatus]

Nefreet wrote:

Imbicatus wrote:

Auriea wrote:

They can worship them, but since the horsemen are evil, any divine caster has to be one step from the horsemen's alignment. Evil PCs are not allowed for society play. Unless of course I am missing a blog post as well.

This is not an issue in pathfnder. Clerics can be TN and worship NE gods. The 3.5 restriction that TN clerics must worship a TN deity was removed in the change to pathfinder.

I don't remember how it worked in 3.5, but in Pathfinder you must be within one alignment step (horizontal or vertical) of your chosen god to gain a mechanical benefit from them (such as a feat, a trait, or spells).

A True Neutral Cleric cannot worship a Lawful Evil god, for example.

Edit: wait, did you edit your post? I could've sworn you said "Lawful Evil" originally.

Nope, I said Neutral Evil all along. The 3.5 cleric alignments were the same as pathfinder, but with an additional clause that if you were a TN cleric, you must worship a TN deity. That additional restriction was removed.