|
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Barbarians/Bloodragers get this at 7th level. By the time they get DR 1/-, is it really that tremendous to not get that extra single hitpoint of damage when creatures encountered at that point are capable of easily doing damage in the teens and 20's and more?
Don't get me wrong, I'd prefer 1 hit point less damage given a choice. But, I've heard players rave about getting that ability and I don't quite see the extraordinary advantage.
Am I missing something?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Well keep in mind that DR1/- means that it cannot be penetrated, and that it applies on every single hit. Against creatures with multiple attacks DR1/- is applied multiple times, so you can ignore more points of damage than it might seem.
Additionally, DR increases the value of your HP. Since as a Barbarian or a Bloodrager you are going to be hit when you are attacked, anything that increases your HP's value is very powerful.
The best example of how powerful this is, is the Invulnerable Rager who obtains an INSANE amount of DR.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Barbarians/Bloodragers get this at 7th level. By the time they get DR 1/-, is it really that tremendous to not get that extra single hitpoint of damage when creatures encountered at that point are capable of easily doing damage in the teens and 20's and more?
Don't get me wrong, I'd prefer 1 hit point less damage given a choice. But, I've heard players rave about getting that ability and I don't quite see the extraordinary advantage.
Am I missing something?
It has its uses.
It is double against non-lethal damage, so if the average person does 1-3 non-lethal, that makes the 1/- DR king of bar fights.
It adds up against multiple opponents. When you attacked by a bunch of minions in a round that 1 point less per hit can be pretty significant.
Also, I'm pretty sure there are rage powers that can increase the DR which can be super nice.
|
I've seen characters die by a margin of one hit point, and go staggered. Overall Pathfinder is a game where 1's add up. Plus I think players tend to drool a bit more over abilities that are typically "Monsters Only", and we've all had the experience of that monster with DR that turned a 3 hour session into 5 hours.
|
Not really. Even in a fairly brutal day it's unlikely that you'll take more than 10 individual hits, so it's like +10 HP (at best) when you already have 80+. In the worst case you may fight a very dangerous foe that deals over a third of your HP in damage per hit, in which case it might be worth about 3HP.
It's rather telling that DR 1/- from adamantine armor only costs 5kgp.
If you're missing anything it's simply the cool factor of not taking as much damage, which is unfortunately lessened by the amount of reduction being not that great.
It's hardly worthless, but it's also often overstated. That said, having several points of DR adds up fast. An invulnerable rager of the same level has 3/-, which is actually quite nice for the level. Not earth-shattering, but nice.
|
|
I've seen characters die by a margin of one hit point, and go staggered. Overall Pathfinder is a game where 1's add up. Plus I think players tend to drool a bit more over abilities that are typically "Monsters Only", and we've all had the experience of that monster with DR that turned a 3 hour session into 5 hours.
Typically monsters will have a DR of 5 or 10. I just had an encounter with one that was DR 15/Adamantine. That sucked. If it was DR 1/-, our party wouldn't have cared in slightest; the monster would go down almost as quickly as not having DR at all.
But, I do understand where you guys are coming from for the advantage, especially with multiple attacks. I guess the Invulnerable Rager does help stack the odds a bit with DR.
You can also add in the Improved Damage Reduction rage power a couple of times. It doesn't take that much to get DR 5/- or more coupled with the Invulnerable Rager archetype.
|
|
Don't underestimate DR.
As a DM speaking here, a lot of monsters are reliant on 'lots of attacks to get through to you' that usually do a lot of hurt.
A barbarian with sufficiently high, or hell even DR 3 up against a Marilith on average takes 12 points less damage. Also DR has side benefits.
If you take no damage from say a venomous touch attacker, you ignore it. The snake can't bite through your skin.
Swarms have a harder time nauseating if their damage gets stopped by DR.
And DR /- is even better because like typed DR (bludgeoning, piercing, slashing), there's no enhancement bonus that bypasses it.
|
|
The fact the barbarian and his 200+ hp is the only who gets damage resistance standard tends to make it even goofier. It's like beating on a boulder.
The paladin in the group I DM for got some adamantine plate himself a while back.
And the other group I DM for found some dwarven plate and despite lacking a traditional tank (party comp is non-combat cleric, mystic theurg, rogue/fighter and sorceress), they had a long discussion before opting to put it in the 'sell' pile.
|
|
Don't underestimate DR.
As a DM speaking here, a lot of monsters are reliant on 'lots of attacks to get through to you' that usually do a lot of hurt.
A barbarian with sufficiently high, or hell even DR 3 up against a Marilith on average takes 12 points less damage. Also DR has side benefits.
If you take no damage from say a venomous touch attacker, you ignore it. The snake can't bite through your skin.
Swarms have a harder time nauseating if their damage gets stopped by DR.
And DR /- is even better because like typed DR (bludgeoning, piercing, slashing), there's no enhancement bonus that bypasses it.
DR 5/- is good for sure, but 1/- is essentially never going to stop an attack (save for something weak like a viper that deals 1 nonlethal consistently).
The Marilith is, IMO, a bit of a corner case. Against such a creature, even a +1 to AC is of similar effectiveness as its to-hit is probably 50/50, so +1 AC is a 10% reduction in damage taken, which is -4 damage taken on average. And a missed attack also negates extra effects such as poison. The difference is, +1 to AC can do that just as well against a big hit as a small one.
You could replace the entire DR class feature of barbarian with +1 to AC and it would likely prevent the same amount of damage as their DR would have, and prevent more secondary effects than the DR would have. The only difference would be in consistency.
Again, it's hard to call a class feature amazing if it can be priced out in the CRB to 5kgp per point. Even Evasion, a lvl 2 feature for rogue and monk, prices out to 25kgp. It's good, but a tertiary feature of the class at best.
|
|
Don't underestimate DR.
As a DM speaking here, a lot of monsters are reliant on 'lots of attacks to get through to you' that usually do a lot of hurt.
A barbarian with sufficiently high, or hell even DR 3 up against a Marilith on average takes 12 points less damage. Also DR has side benefits.
If you take no damage from say a venomous touch attacker, you ignore it. The snake can't bite through your skin.
Swarms have a harder time nauseating if their damage gets stopped by DR.
And DR /- is even better because like typed DR (bludgeoning, piercing, slashing), there's no enhancement bonus that bypasses it.
DR 5/- is good for sure, but 1/- is essentially never going to stop an attack (save for something weak like a viper that deals 1 nonlethal consistently).
The Marilith is, IMO, a bit of a corner case. Against such a creature, even a +1 to AC is of similar effectiveness as its to-hit is probably 50/50, so +1 AC is a 10% reduction in damage taken, which is -4 damage taken on average. And a missed attack also negates extra effects such as poison. The difference is, +1 to AC can do that just as well against a big hit as a small one.
You could replace the entire DR class feature of barbarian with +1 to AC and it would likely prevent the same amount of damage as their DR would have, and prevent more secondary effects than the DR would have. The only difference would be in consistency.
Again, it's hard to call a class feature amazing if it can be priced out in the CRB to 5kgp per point. Even Evasion, a lvl 2 feature for rogue and monk, prices out to 25kgp. It's good, but a tertiary feature of the class at best.
No ability should be the end all to be all.
DR does what it does, mitigate damage and really cut down on the 'death of a thousand cuts' guys. Its not intended to be a total shut down (and again, from DM experience, monsters who make DR a primary part of their defense get torn asunder by any experienced party).
DR cuts damage down, its useful for this. Unconditional DR is better then typed DR because as I said, nothing bypasses it. No +5 weapon, no 'I count as evil.' Nada.
A balor with his giant angry +5 vorpal weapon still has 1 (or by the time you're fighting balors) 4 or 5 points of damage just outright negated.
And Mariliths may be a 'corner case' but then so are lions, glabrezu, most fiends, and the like who get their business done on multiple attacks.
At low level, DR/- is really powerful since you just don't have many HP to begin with.
Ever seen two greater earth elementals fight each other? It takes forever. Even with the damage they both deal out, the DR gets in the way. Now admittedly, they have bigger, beefier DR, but even a fighter wearing adamantine plate is kicking it with a 3/- or 5/-
If you want to argue that Spook's saying Damage Resistance is King O'Upgrades, I'm not. We're arguing why its good to have.
And in the barbarian's case, he gets this as a normal, run of the mill thing. Monks, paladins and the like have to wait until they get to capstone basically, and alignment dr is hilariously easy to bypass when your regular foe is guys of opposed alignment.
You can also add in the Improved Damage Reduction rage power a couple of times. It doesn't take that much to get DR 5/- or more coupled with the Invulnerable Rager archetype.
Grab the Stalwart and Improved Stalward with Combat Expertise then take Reckless abandon rage power. At level 8 you could have DR 8/- and -5 to you AC while raging. Combat Expertise give 3 AC and -3 to hit. Stalwart turns the 3 AC into DR 3\- stackable with Barbarian. Reckless abandon gives you +3 to hit and -3 AC. Invulnerable rager at 8th has DR 4 \- so that's DR 7 \- and add you 8th level rage power of Improved Damage reduction to be DR 8 \-. At 12th with improved stalwart you'd be DR 15 \-.
|
A 10th level invulnerable rager can have 8/- DR spending only rage powers. Put him up against a CR 13 Glabrezu and you're negating 40 points of damage a round if he full attacks you.
With some totems and a feat or two, I've heard you can get up to DR 20/- (although I'd like to see that build level-by-level)
|
|
When you stack DR, it's nice. Tf you compare it to monsters that have 5 DR of course it would seem to show that as well, but barbarians don't get that much DR for a looong time unless they are invulnerable rager, which I admit has useful quantities of DR.
As for low levels, well, with the exception of the invulnerable rager you just don't *have* DR at all, so it's not really relevant.
DR reminds me of BAB and save progressions. +1 doesn't mean a whole lot, but they start to add up, especially if the increased DR rage powers are selected.
I'm inclined to disagree with the idea that +1 AC would protect against more attacks and effects, since barbarians are not known for their sky-high ACs. Or their ACs. Unless you're talking about the barbarian race for the negative AC. At level 12 or 13 or whatever, being able to shave off 6 points of physical damage from every attack can really add up, particularly in smaller adventuring parties (ie parties or 3-4 players). It's a useful mechanic.
DR that you buy is via what? Adamantine armor? Armor that's not always going to be worn. DR via class feature cannot be so easily removed from the character.
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Unconditional DR is better then typed DR because as I said, nothing bypasses it. No +5 weapon, no 'I count as evil.' Nada.
I don't think that's as big a deal for a PC defense. The monsters fighting the PCs are not generally as prepared to bypass DR as the PCs are. By mid levels most PCs will have some way to bypass DR/cold iron, DR/silver, DR/good, and possibly DR/adamantine, but most monsters will at best be able to bypass one of those types. Unless you're taking DR/evil into Wrath of the Righteous, the odds of running into enemies who can bypass your particular kind of DR are pretty low.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Hold on, I don't think the OP is saying that DR sucks, I think what he's saying is that DR 1/- isn't that impressive. If that's all you got, ever, that's a crap ability not even worth mentioning. I mean giving rogues DR 1/- ain't gonna be an improvement if ya get my meaning. Now DR 5/- is quite a different story. That has value and meaning. Being able to turn DR 1 into DR 5, doesn't make DR 1 any more powerful.
|
|
I treat DR for what it is: A nice extra that will not be a game-changer without notable extra investment. I keep my AC reasonably high, sacrificing only for the benefits of that delicious 2-hander damage (or natural attack spread, if that's the flavor of the month).
Exempting the most abhorrently abysmal ACs, a +1 to AC is worth 2 DR, and is often easier to get. Beast Totem in particular gains up to a +6 natural armor bonus from a single rage power, so I doubt a barbarian that wants high AC will have much trouble. Dragon Totem does match that in terms of DR increase, but many feel the wording is dubious so it may not fly at all tables.
If you want DR to be your main defense, it's possible, but requires a lot of effort. If you want AC to be your main defense, it's not that bad as it's mostly a magic item investment, which leaves you open to explore more creative options elsewhere in your character.
Of course, combining each where it's easy is the best. Invulnerable Rager with Beast Totem would be both difficult to hit *and* tough to hurt when you do.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Additionally, DR increases the value of your HP. Since as a Barbarian or a Bloodrager you are going to be hit when you are attacked, anything that increases your HP's value is very powerful.
I feel that this point was ignored. Basically, the more HP you have, the more useful DR is.
More HP means you can take more hits before going down. Taking more hits means that DR is reducing more damage. Reducing damage means you can take more hits.
|
|
DR becomes more useful the more HP you have, and it's especially useful if you're of the mindset that AC doesn't matter at mid-high levels as you just assume you're going to be hit by nearly anything and you'd be better off investing your gold in utility and more offense. (I totally disagree with that sentiment - but I know some people think that way.)
|
|
DR becomes more useful the more HP you have, and it's especially useful if you're of the mindset that AC doesn't matter at mid-high levels as you just assume you're going to be hit by nearly anything and you'd be better off investing your gold in utility and more offense. (I totally disagree with that sentiment - but I know some people think that way.)
At high levels, high AC becomes more about avoiding additional attacks then the first one. The first one tends to almost hit because AC gains are smaller then BAB gains.
I've ironically enough seen rogues get positively stratospheric at 14th level though due to the shennigans of their Offensive Defense (I sneak attack you for 7D6 and get an effective +7 AC against you), and mobility feats.
|
Additionally, DR increases the value of your HP. Since as a Barbarian or a Bloodrager you are going to be hit when you are attacked, anything that increases your HP's value is very powerful.I feel that this point was ignored. Basically, the more HP you have, the more useful DR is.
More HP means you can take more hits before going down. Taking more hits means that DR is reducing more damage. Reducing damage means you can take more hits.
Very much this, the two synergise really well. The more hp you have the better DR is, the more DR you have the better more hp are.
Well... DR 1/- is barely noticeable, true... But the value of DR grows really fast. DR 3/ - is likely to make a great difference. DR 5+/- is huge!
DR is not as great as AC. But it is visible in a different Way and some folks like that.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
DR 1/- is fairly unimpressive, but frequently anything that can get DR 1/- can get more DR than that with time. Your barbarian example would have at least DR 5/- by 20th level, more if he spent rage powers and feats boosting it, and even without, DR 5/- is enough to spare a charge from the heal stick every hit so is very nice. Plus if you build to maximize damage reduction you can basically ignore wearing armor altogether as I showcased in this thread where my barbarian's maximum effective DR was DR 230/-
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I've got a Bloodrager 10/Fighter 2 (DR2/-) that played through a level of the Jade Regent AP last night.
Shaving 2 damage off of each hit is 10 damage a round. At that rate (which is not statistically sound, but bear with me), I've saved my characters entire hit point total (148) every 1.5 minutes.
It made me immune to some of the Tenebrous Worm counterattack spines (1d4+1 damage, Fort or paralyzed for awhile).
Also, as an aside, it plays nicely with Ablative Barrier.
|
|
At levels 1-4 damage reduction of any positive value is going to be noticeable as enemies are typically hitting you for single digit numbers. You might have only 11 HP at first level, 19 at second, 27 at third and 35 at fourth level. Most of the enemies attacks during this period are dealing 4-12 points of damage a hit. Sometimes a little more.
Reducing this down into the 3-11 points does matter and certainly creates more frequent situations where you do not just barely survive by 1 point away from negative con or prevent going KO by a single hit point.
At level 5 and beyond you're better off simply not having that pitiful amount of Dr because it is virtually useless. Everything likes to hit for double digits and reducing the double digits to a still high double digit number is meaningless in most practical cases. At this point, you need Dr of approximately 3 for it to actually be worth the time. At Dr 3 you can reduce some double digit attacks to high single digits and most of your regular hits become far more manageable and it really does have a meaningful impact on your hp.
But being 7th level with dr 1 is a joke. You don't need Dr 1. You need Dr 3-4. The funny thing about Dr is that once you pass 3 it is almost always relevant but anything lower than that is almost always not unless you are low level.
|
|
At levels 1-4 damage reduction of any positive value is going to be noticeable as enemies are typically hitting you for single digit numbers. You might have only 11 HP at first level, 19 at second, 27 at third and 35 at fourth level. Most of the enemies attacks during this period are dealing 4-12 points of damage a hit. Sometimes a little more.
Reducing this down into the 3-11 points does matter and certainly creates more frequent situations where you do not just barely survive by 1 point away from negative con or prevent going KO by a single hit point.
At level 5 and beyond you're better off simply not having that pitiful amount of Dr because it is virtually useless. Everything likes to hit for double digits and reducing the double digits to a still high double digit number is meaningless in most practical cases. At this point, you need Dr of approximately 3 for it to actually be worth the time. At Dr 3 you can reduce some double digit attacks to high single digits and most of your regular hits become far more manageable and it really does have a meaningful impact on your hp.
But being 7th level with dr 1 is a joke. You don't need Dr 1. You need Dr 3-4. The funny thing about Dr is that once you pass 3 it is almost always relevant but anything lower than that is almost always not unless you are low level.
This is precisely why I asked the question. I was scratching my head wondering why at level 7 does reducing a single hit point really matter. I think some of the other responses do give some validity to "DR 1/-" (such as shaving off the damage from multi-attacks) but it's very circumstantial (as others have pointed out) and it appears that it can really depend on your build.
The question is how Greater Chaos Totem stacks with DR and Stalwart.
Anyway, by level 11 even without Great Chaos Totem and just Improved Damage Reduction you can get a minimum of DR8/ - and then you get +6 from Stalwart, Improved Stalwart, and Combat Expertise when using combat expertise.
So that is DR14/-
You can double that with Bolstered Resilience for a single attack, but that leaves you fatigued but that is a waste of a feat.
No clue how GCT stacks with all of that.
Anyway, every 4 BAB that DR goes up by two. So at level 12 you get DR9/- and then can get +8 from your feats for a total of DR17/- when you fight defensively.
This combines excellently with Reach Weapons and Come and Get Me, since you get DR17 AGAINST EVERYTHING THAT HTIS YOU.
Max DR at level 20 from just feats is 13 natural + 10 to a total of DR23/-
Again, DR23/-
23.
Again, someone needs to read into how Great Chaos Totem interacts with this, since Stalwart states it does not stack with non-class feature DR, but GCT is a rage power which is a class feature. Additionally, how GCT stacks with the Barbarian's normal DR.
Shrug, you're a barbarian. You have Superstition and all kinds of strong saves and can afford a Cloak of Resistance +5, and you have the most HP out of any class in the game.
Magic is basically a non-factor for you. This isn't even considering what SR you've managed to buy and stack with 12-20 levels of Gold.
|
|
Shrug, you're a barbarian. You have Superstition and all kinds of strong saves and can afford a Cloak of Resistance +5, and you have the most HP out of any class in the game.
Magic is basically a non-factor for you. This isn't even considering what SR you've managed to buy and stack with 12-20 levels of Gold.
SR in item form is so weak as to be laughable. Any primary-caster foe is going to blow through whatever SR you can afford without even trying. If you're lucky they'll have a 5-10% chance of failure. Even the best SR you can get from an item (for 90k) can be pierced 5% of the time by literally any caster, and 15% of the time by a lvl 1 elf (25% if they also took spell penetration).
That's not to say Barbarians aren't a good anti-caster class. They are, but SR from items is not why. Superstition is one thing, as you mention. An Untouchable Bloodrager can also gain good SR by sacrificing casting.
When it comes to magic.. well, it's not very good at damage, so no point in focusing on that angle. And superstition covers the rest pretty well. The main thing is to ensure you have also a caster on YOUR side so that the wizard doesn't just leave and use one of the myriad ways of indirectly fighting that the barbarian can't effectively counter (nor can any other martial, for the matter).
Every 5% is a chance your DM flips the table ;)
SR in Item form is pretty bad though, I agree. Still, the best you can generally hope for is just to beat the DC through absurd saves as a Barbarian.
Or, as you said, have someone else bail you out. I wasn't considering that since I like to have my builds be self-contained. Still, it is worthwhile to remember that you will usually have a magician of your own at your back.
Though that is less meaningful for the Superstitious Barbarian who will try to resist Dispel Magic >_>
|
|
1 DR isn't much, and really shouldn't be heralded as a lot. Most of my players forget about numbers that small, but comboing it with Stalwart/Expertise and Invulnerable Rager (possibly Dragon Totem if you have another way to get pounce) can net you 20+ DR. DR 1 is fine, but it's barely a factor. Barbs should be working to pump DR anyway that they can.
|
|
Every 5% is a chance your DM flips the table ;)
SR in Item form is pretty bad though, I agree. Still, the best you can generally hope for is just to beat the DC through absurd saves as a Barbarian.
Or, as you said, have someone else bail you out. I wasn't considering that since I like to have my builds be self-contained. Still, it is worthwhile to remember that you will usually have a magician of your own at your back.
Though that is less meaningful for the Superstitious Barbarian who will try to resist Dispel Magic >_>
...They can't. Dispel Magic is no save, no SR.
Oh, huh.
I've never actually looked at that.
I don't play caster's much XD
Does not DR1/- mean you can pretty much ignore mosquitos/ticks/bed bugs and the like?
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Does not DR1/- mean you can pretty much ignore mosquitos/ticks/bed bugs and the like?
I'm not sure I've ever seen such things come up in game, but yes. You'd also be able to handle cats, snakes, etc. without risk since they cannot deal more than 1 nonlethal.
Luckily surgery isn't a big thing in PF, because it would be made quite a bit harder by DR.
DR 1/- is pretty powerful because it can be worked with many other abilities, skills, or gear to strengthen the overall build. By itself, it won't help against most level appropriate monsters, but there are lots of ways to boost it, and even without a boost, it helps the barbarian ignore the lower level minions that rely on numbers rather than strong single blows. It also does a good job of letting barbarians frequently ignore swarms, something that even at level 7 isn't always that easy to do. In the end, it doesn't do much by itself, but it can combined with a wide variety of things to have a much larger effect. It can serve as a base for rage powers that enhance it; it can work well as part of a larger defense strategy that includes AC as well; it works well with a strategy of getting as much HP as possible and simply wading through the minions to get to the boss. That is its real power; pretty much every barbarian build out there can find a way to take advantage of it and use it in conjunction with other abilities, skills, feats, or gear. Very few barbarians will be willing to completely ignore it and forget it entirely.
I only like it for the bar fights, as someone else mentioned. It can be pretty cool being literally immune (though takes takes a bit more DR) to the blows of your lessers.