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Are we ever going to get more? Basically 4 parts so far: hard cover book, adventure path, 2 supplements.
I love Mythic Adventures and I KNOW some do and some don't ... it's not a universal love. But was Paizo happy with the products' reception and "ratings"? James Jacobs or Jason Bulmahn or someone of that ilk at Paizo ... can you please speak to this?
Thanks all & Happy New Year!
P.S. Very excited for the "spiritual" child of Against the Giants coming along with the next adventure path!!
I am similarly intrigued by these questions.
Mythic has shown up already occasionally on monsters encountered in current APs after Wrath.
But unless they make a few erratas fixing up Mythic, I doubt they will release full APs where players have permanent access to Mythic tiers. It's simply too easy to break the game.
Mythic has shown up already occasionally on monsters encountered in current APs after Wrath.
But unless they make a few erratas fixing up Mythic, I doubt they will release full APs where players have permanent access to Mythic tiers. It's simply too easy to break the game.
Hopefully this will happen. I liked the idea of mythic. It just needs a little more time spent polishing off the rough bits.
Yeah Mythic is a great way to augment bad guys, but on the player side of things I think the relative power of tiers was way underestimated. 1 or 2 tiers doesn't seem to bad, but more than that and it accelerates all the inherent problems of high level play, such rocket tag.
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Sadly this is the only Pathfinder RPG product that needs ongoing product releases. It's okay to "support" the gunslinger by simply having a couple feats/traits/grit-thingies in other books. It's okay to "support" the magus the same way; bits and bites here and there.
Mythic is a playstyle/system, and needs published modules and adventures to make it shine.
I agree that as published we can tack it onto bad guys here and there, but that's a terrible waste of a whole system. We have a total of one AP as an example of what mythic play should look like, so it's not like homebrew GMs have a lot to go on for guidelines of what works and what doesn't.
I'd personally love to see (and purchase) say two modules a year (in addition to the current ones) published specifically designed for mythic use.
But I don't think it's going to happen that way. I think Mythic is Paizo's Psionics/Incarnum/Bo9S... it'll get only light mention here and there moving forward.
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WotR is a guideline ... of how mythic PCs are a different slice of reality apart from any regular and/or mythic challenges. It's not an example of how mythic play should look like, it's an example of how it DOESN'T work IF you try to use the regular CR system.
A proper mythic adventure would require dozens of enormous statblocks in order to present opponents that can hopefully get somewhere close to being a remote threat to a mythic party. It would also require dropping the CR system entirely and stating right away that 3+ tiers mythic PCs are pretty much turbo superheroes who can destroy reality just by looking at it.
I mean, it's not like what I wrote above is impossible, but I believe that somewhere between the issue of statblock space and demand, it's no going to happen.
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I've always been a fan of high magic, epic play, and mythic play ... and while I love Mythic Adventures, am probably just disappointed it didn't generate more mass appeal.
I'd rather have a 'mystic future' AP.
WotR was pretty succesful, though, the final part reached low stock very fast.
Click the link 137Ben provided. That's a big part of what that Kickstarter included. I (probably) won't play that AP despite being a backer, but I'll certainly read it.
This is another crappy chicken/egg situation for Paizo. It's hard to generate demand for a subsystem that doesn't have published adventures, and it's hard to publish adventures for a subsystem that doesn't have (sufficient) demand.
I'm sure they've got some measure in mind, but there's also the eternal "only X man-hours of labour available per day at Paizo" issue.
I doubt that we are going to see an even partial mythic AP in the following years after the debacle of WotR, maybe if we are lucky we will get a mythic module.
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How about a mythic module?
I think they could keep it a lower mythic which would avoid some of the problems people complain about, while letting those who want more mythic material have it.
It wouldn't be a full mythic AP, but it would give a little meat for people who like Mythic to play.
There's also the mythic PFS scenario.. Don't forget that
There is a mythic pga module? Do you have a link?
"I doubt that we are going to see an even partial mythic AP in the following years after the debacle of WotR, maybe if we are lucky we will get a mythic module."
Wait, where is it stated as hard news that Wrath of the Righteous was a "debacle"? huh?!
"I doubt that we are going to see an even partial mythic AP in the following years after the debacle of WotR, maybe if we are lucky we will get a mythic module."
Wait, where is it stated as hard news that Wrath of the Righteous was a "debacle"? huh?!
In the WotR forum, nearly everyone who has read/run it says that it offers no challenge whatsoever for the mythic PCs, even if the mythic PCs aren't optimised through the roof, my experience playing it is also the same*. At least that's the impression i got.
*actually my experience is that the challenge is ok but the DM is using the complete revamp of every (even remotely) serious encounters that were made by other members of the community, but my DM usually tells me what the original encounters were and i laugh at the difficulty of the written encounters.
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Leo, that sounds more like "needs improvement", not "debacle".
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Leo, that sounds more like "needs improvement", not "debacle".
this is the internet! i thought phrases like "Debacle" or "s*+$ty enough that monkeys won't even throw feces at it" really meant "Needs Improvement" or "Good Job Sport!" i could be wrong tho:-p
And for the record, i wouldn't call MA a "debacle" or really even that bad, WotR on the other hand "needs improvement"
Leo, that sounds more like "needs improvement", not "debacle".this is the internet! i thought phrases like "Debacle" or "s&$~ty enough that monkeys won't even throw feces at it" really meant "Needs Improvement" or "Good Job Sport!" i could be wrong tho:-p
And for the record, i wouldn't call MA a "debacle" or really even that bad, WotR on the other hand "needs improvement"
I wasn't talking about MA, yes it has flaws (serious ones), but it is something you can work with. I was talking about WotR, i think that the encounters in books 3-6 need a serious revamp/overhaul/do them again kinda approach in order for the AP to be "service-able".
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what Wrath of the Righteous needs are Smurfs!
like s#+@loads of the little a!&~#~! f%#~ers!
if for no other reason then to make the Demons not seem so bad
The answer to your question is basically No I don't think they will ever put out any more mythic books either in supplement or AP. Although they might have a small mythic section in some future books. The reason is simple they are a business and they want to reach the widest possible audience with every book and if half their base doesn't like something they are not going to go their. That being said I wouldn't rule out a few years down the road another attempt at revamping high level play something aimed at higher levels like the epic handbook so that they could do high level stuff if they can figure out a way to make it work. Which is a tall order since some of the best designers in the business have not been able to crack the high level play nut yet.
I actually like a common sense type of high level play. With 3e and 3.5 they chose to buff up the casters and nerf the Martials, which to anyone who had ever seen any sort of character op...made absolutely NO sense.
If they did an epic, at least continue the BAB advancements, and allow increased multiple attacks for martials (and perhaps feats that allow them to have ALL their attacks at the highest BAB...as that is the reasoning some used as why the 3.x attacks were nerfed in epic [they wouldn't hit anyways type arguments, and take more time]) along with other things to sprue things up). Maybe give martials complete immunity to magic (but NOT the effects of magic, by this I mean, a spell cast on the martial won't effect them, but an earthquake still would). Things like that.
Allow a sensible advancement in epic levels that continue the trend of how the characters have been advancing instead of re-writing the entire rules...and then build on that.
At least that's what I'd like to see if they ever did an epic level stuff.....
At least don't nerf martials while you buff the spellcasters like the 3e and 3.5 versions did.
There's a ton of great Mythic third party material out there. I haven't played through it yet, but I've heard more than once that villains with mythic tiers show up in Iron Gods.
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Id love to see more Mythic rules. Specifically stuff that's for the other base classes. In my brother in laws game im a gunslinger and maybe im missing something but there doesn't seem to be anything worth taking in mythic for a gunslinger.
Also epic support. Play past 20th level. I know we have a guideline in the core book, but I want some epic feats, epic magic items and such. Ive converted some of the stuff myself, but I always prefer official.
and finally deity rules. Ive not seen this said specifically but im under the impression that mythic is supposed to kinda sorta, if you squint rules for deities. To me that just doesn't cut it. Ive converted a lot of deity and demigods over to pathfinder, but I would of course like something official.
High level play seems to get a bad rap, but I love high level play. In the last long running 3.5 game I ran in Forgotten Realms the players got up to 54th level and were about to take on Shar and stop her from sundering the Weave. And im planning more adventures for those characters. I don't have trouble with long stat blocks, or overpowered characters, but my players are more roleplaying focused that kill happy murder hobos who just want experience.
I think there is demand for high level play, maybe not a lot, like hardcover gencon release demand, but certainly there is demand for a small book for mythic, epic and deities. All in one maybe. And hey if Paizo wont publish it, why not someone else. While not official, still would be nice.
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I actually like a common sense type of high level play. With 3e and 3.5 they chose to buff up the casters and nerf the Martials, which to anyone who had ever seen any sort of character op...made absolutely NO sense.
If we look at two-digit levels, in 3.0 and 3.5 casters were at their lowest power state compared to martials at any time since the Rules Cyclopedia. (I don't even consider 4E and 5E to be DnD). They had theoretical access to maximum spikes of power comparable to what they had in AD&D 2E and higher than in Pathfinder, but hardly anyone ever saw Incantatrixes, persist clerics with stacking Nightsticks or fleshraker animal companions in actual play, and when that happened it was in proof-of-concept games dedicated to breaking the system. Baseline power of full casters relative to martials was considerably lower than in Pathfinder. Particularly as there were more avenues towards creating a fightan man who reduced the majority of appropriately CRed monsters to red mist (you could get damage multipliers and full attacks on charge without a mount, for starters).
AD&D 1E was the edition that buffed the casters and nerfed the martials into oblivion, it stated that martials can't have cool things, and the effects of that statement are felt to this day.
If they did an epic, at least continue the BAB advancements, and allow increased multiple attacks for martials
The last time martials had a problem with killing stuff was AD&D 2E, which was full of monsters into melee range of which you absolutely never wanted to get (undead, with their permanent and unfixable level drain, and a host of other creatures with horrible special abilities that activated close-up) and gave no guarantees you could ever avoid getting into their melee range because your equipment was at GM's mercy.
In later editions you could more or less make fighting men who managed to kill stuff and survive without overtly relying on pity artifacts. The problem was and is, casters not only were even better at killing stuff, they contributed much more to the actual adventure and weren't just boring to play. Taking a PF example, consider a Nature Fang druid vs. a ranger. The differences in their fluff and general approach to the whole aventuring businness are probably rather miniscule. But the former is a more interesting character because his array of utility options is much bigger (and he kills things better too, of course).Allow a sensible advancement in epic levels that continue the trend of how the characters have been advancing
No can do. Differences in saves and BAB progression really matter as you go past 20.
And to what end? Level 15+ characters are already so insanely powerful and capable, that there is no sort of fantasy adventure you cannot run in that level range, unless you artificially try to level up the setting just to make people buy your mythic or whatever book, like Paizo currently does. It is not like adventures on much grander scale than Wrath of the Righteous weren't working perfectly well using vanilla 3.X without tapping into epic rules. See: Age of Worms and Savage Tide.
In my opinion, no "epic" or "mythic" or whatever expansion can succeed while it attempts to just buff PCs with more numbers and better ways to kill stuff, while keeping the same paradigm. The fact that high-level DnD play is already far too complex and most games never reach the two-digit level range to begin with, pretty much dooms the idea from the start. Instead of trying to add more vertical growth to PCs abilities, any such expansion should expand their options horizontally, adding more ways to affect and shape the world on the grand scale. That is what vanilla DnD lacks, not ways to kill things even harder.
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There's a ton of great Mythic third party material out there. I haven't played through it yet, but I've heard more than once that villains with mythic tiers show up in Iron Gods.
Legendary Games, sir. And be sure to hat tip Jason on the way out.
Speaking of Mythic and WotR, can anyone who has run it say whether or not the problems that seem to have been encountered might have been fixed (or at least minimized) by reducing the number of Mythic tiers granted over the course of the AP?
Honestly? No.
You could have one Mythic Tier, and at 20th level the character would be able to deal tons of damage - just by taking Mythic Power Attack and the Champion/Trickster ability to move and attack as a Swift action.
It would help, but it isn't a fix. I realized this a bit late but lowering the tiers and PC levels will help the AP. Along with other limitations... or massive buffs on the other side.
I would love a mythic bestiary.
It occurs to me to wonder... have any of the Third Party Publishers created a mythic adventure path of their own yet? If not, the 9 layers of Hell are pretty much all fair game as far as I'm aware, and could make for an especially mythic extraplanar campaign, as opposed to the mere dabbling in non-Golarion settings you get from the Paizo APs. If I found myself out of a job tomorrow, that might be something I would look into.
If we look at two-digit levels, in 3.0 and 3.5 casters were at their lowest power state compared to martials at any time since the Rules Cyclopedia.
We played very different games. In AD&D a caster could be disrupted by simply hitting them with your fist, or a stone. Furthermore, by the time your caster got to level 18 and could cast 9th level spells the fighter basically was level 21 and could save against a majority of your spells with a VERY low roll.
That ceased with 3e. One of MANY things that buffed the caster up. Saves suffered, no longer did everyone have that guaranteed low roll to save vs. anything the Spellcaster could do. Once you hit epic...with Epic Spellcasting...well...that really was the I win button. In fact, Magic became FAR more potent in the games we played. In 3e and 3.5 the caster was king...just like it is in PF in many instances in the later levels.
We must be talking about a very different game, I'm talking about D&D. Then again, I may be mistaken as well. I'm discussing the power levels of AD&D 1e and 2e, which WERE admittedly before the Rules Cyclopedia...but then, what exactly are you referring to in regards to editions? The RC was the last real edition of the rules to come out that I'm aware of for a full game, though some would call the revised 2e rulebooks as a 2.5 edition occasionally.
It may be that we really are discussing different games here?
Either that or playstyles differed so drastically as to have that different of an experience.
For us, I'll stick with what I stated above and with epic, they REALLY need to buff the martials in PF with epic and all the other items I listed.
It occurs to me to wonder... have any of the Third Party Publishers created a mythic adventure path of their own yet? If not, the 9 layers of Hell are pretty much all fair game as far as I'm aware, and could make for an especially mythic extraplanar campaign, as opposed to the mere dabbling in non-Golarion settings you get from the Paizo APs. If I found myself out of a job tomorrow, that might be something I would look into.
I don't know, if anyone knows of any 3pp mythic AP please tell us.
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I feel like this thread has partially become an indicator of who reads the entire (one page) thread before posting and who just read the OP. Pretty early in the thread I linked to an announcement about an upcoming mythic AP. My link was followed by people saying "nope, I don't think future mythic products will happen".
I'm glad to know I am not alone in skipping to the end of threads:)
By the way, I don't mean to tease with spoilers, but just last night I got an e-mail from Jason Nelson. Attached was a file containing more than 2000 mythic spells. Its cover page attributed it to the same people who wrote Mythic Adventures. Being a mythic kickstarter backer is awesome:)
I wish I would of known of this Kickstarter. Will definitely be buying.
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I got that email as well. I am so behind in keeping up with my various kickstarters, I need to do that sometime soon.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4; Contributor; Publisher, Legendary Games
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Hi guys,
Just popping in to thanks 137ben, Shadowborn, and others for linking over to Legendary Games' products. We've been putting out mythic support since the rules came out, and there are plenty of products you can pick up now in PDF or in print, here on Paizo or on our website, with many of the same contributors who worked on the original mythic rules, and almost without exception everyone working on these books are also regular contributors to Paizo's own product lines.
The MYTHIC MANIA Kickstarter was a multi-company project between Legendary Games, Kobold Press, Rogue Genius Games, and Dreamscarred Press to create an encyclopedic set of mythic support books for the entire core Pathfinder line (Core book, APG, ARG, UC, UM, and more from the campaign setting and companion products), as well as from the best 3PPs working in Pathfinder space today. All the spells from Deep Magic, mythic support for new classes like the Shadow Assassin, Time Thief, Spell-less Ranger, brand-new mythic monsters, and more. We've been working on this since last spring, and we are sincerely hoping that everything gets wrapped up in time for printing and shipping to have the books available in time for PaizoCon. It's going to be cutting it VERY close, since PaizoCon was moved up a month and a half from where we expected it to be when we ran the KS (from 4th of July to Memorial Day at the end of May), but we'll see what we can do.
If you'd like an inexpensive sampler of the kind of content you'll be seeing, Mythic Magic: Ultimate Spells I is our TWO$DAY product of the week this week, which means you can pick up the PDF for just $2 (regular price is $5.99) for mythic versions of every spell from Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Ultimate Combat (save those that already appear in the core mythic rulebook from Paizo).
You can also pick up any of our Mythic Minis line for just a buck. These are short one-page products, usually 7-12 feats or mythic path abilities, 4-5 magic items, or some other rules element (like curses or lycanthropy) to do with the mythic rules. Take a walk through and you'll probably find something that piques your interest.
And we do have a mythic AP already in production. The manuscript for the first adventure is already in and we are working on development, and we are planning a Kickstarter campaign for later this spring, probably in May or June to kick this thing up into the stratosphere and beyond! Literally. :)
Pretty early in the thread I linked to an announcement about an upcoming mythic AP.
So, please don't read too much of a sardonic tone in this, but I read your post and then went back through everything here three times to try to find where you posted the link to a Mythic AP and finally just did a search on your name. "Clicky" is not actually very informative if you're trying to draw folks attention to something.
A 3rd party Mythic AP does sound pretty interesting.
From my POV, I bought Mythic because it was the closest I could come to high-level support from Paizo. I can't say I find it particularly useful over all as the balance seems to be all over the place, but I have definitely mined it for stuff for my 18+ campaign and my 28+ campaign.
I also think that I'm likely not alone in watching the support that Paizo gives Mythic and using that as part of what will help determine my purchasing habits for other hard cover product that introduces new tack-on rules in the future (ie Occult Adventures). I'm really hoping that at some point, Paizo will generate some additional support for rules systems or content that seems a bit orphaned at the moment.
-TimD
I feel like this thread has partially become an indicator of who reads the entire (one page) thread before posting and who just read the OP. Pretty early in the thread I linked to an announcement about an upcoming mythic AP. My link was followed by people saying "nope, I don't think future mythic products will happen".
I'm glad to know I am not alone in skipping to the end of threads:)
By the way, I don't mean to tease with spoilers, but just last night I got an e-mail from Jason Nelson. Attached was a file containing more than 2000 mythic spells. Its cover page attributed it to the same people who wrote Mythic Adventures. Being a mythic kickstarter backer is awesome:)
Upcoming, especially a kickstarter funded one upcoming AP doesn't mean much to me (i have come to generally distrust kickstarter), anyway thank you for bringing Jason Nelson on this thread.
I feel like this thread has partially become an indicator of who reads the entire (one page) thread before posting and who just read the OP. Pretty early in the thread I linked to an announcement about an upcoming mythic AP. My link was followed by people saying "nope, I don't think future mythic products will happen".
I'm glad to know I am not alone in skipping to the end of threads:)
By the way, I don't mean to tease with spoilers, but just last night I got an e-mail from Jason Nelson. Attached was a file containing more than 2000 mythic spells. Its cover page attributed it to the same people who wrote Mythic Adventures. Being a mythic kickstarter backer is awesome:)
I scanned right past your original post because a post consisting of nothing more than a link that reads 'clicky' tends to set off my 'do not click' alarm. Also, as leo1925 pointed out, it's still only in the development stages right now, rather than an already existing 3pp mythic AP. Jason Nelson is a pretty awesome guy and has some pretty awesome products, but an adventure path is a massive undertaking, and so far as I know, all that Legendary has produced so far is modules and supplementary materials, nothing nearly so ambitious as a full adventure path. I really do hope it's awesome and provides a great option for people who want to play mythic campaigns other than WotR, but all I see right now is a bunch of eggs and no chickens.
I'd also like to point out, its not like Jason is new to writing for APs:-)
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4; Contributor; Publisher, Legendary Games
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I'd also like to point out, its not like Jason is new to writing for APs:-)
:)
All told, the Legendary Games crew has written over 60% of the AP adventures that Paizo has published (I've written 4 of them FWIW).
In terms of the scope and scale of what Legendary Games has produced, we've produced one 256-page hardcover already (the Gothic Campaign Compendium), and the current three-hardback mythic rulebook set should clock in at over 900 pages. We've released 24 mythic bestiaries, half a dozen mythic spells products that include every spell in the core books, around 150-200 pages of products (adventures, bestiaries, class books, and supplements of all kinds) each for the "Far East" AP, "Kingdom-Building" AP, and "Pirate AP," plus about 100 more for the "Demon Crusade" AP, another 120 pages of mass combat and kingdom-building supplements. Our first Kickstarter from launch to delivery of books was less than six months. Our current Kickstarter launched last April and should be off to the printers by the end of this month.
None of that gets you a completed AP in your hands right now, of course.
What it does do is show a pretty strong track record of delivering on product at a rapid pace and with excellent quality. The names writing on this AP are ones that should be very familiar to you - Neil Spicer, Richard Pett, Tim Hitchcock, Mike Shel, Matt Goodall, Jim Groves, and more. If it's an AP you're looking for, check us out later this spring and I think you'll like what you see.
If it's an AP you're looking for, check us out later this spring and I think you'll like what you see.
I'm sure you're planning to, but make sure you do an update on the mythic hardcover books KS :)
I bought Mythic Adventures twice, and supported the Legendary Games Kickstarter, but I really don't see myself buying new mythic stuff from Paizo until they attempt to fix the existing material.
Seeing you're an Adventure Path Subscriber you may already have bought books with "mythic stuff from Paizo" again, both in Mummy's Maks and Iron Gods...
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4; Contributor; Publisher, Legendary Games
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If it's an AP you're looking for, check us out later this spring and I think you'll like what you see.I'm sure you're planning to, but make sure you do an update on the mythic hardcover books KS :)
The most recent updates have been backer-only updates. I'm sure we'll be getting out a general update in the next week or two.