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I disagree, people have posted enough about the fighters that it's clear that they intend to defeat the Wizard through physical combat. Large numbers of feats, the Unbreakable fighter archetype and high damage are all things mentioned that lead to the fighter class quite easily.
Oh, and Roan. Mythic Paragon ups that to 15 HD. Seriously, Mythic Cloudkill is great. Unfortunately, its not given by Divine Source, and I don't know another Rules given way to get it so we can take it as Mythic.Construct Domain gives limited Wish. Mythic Spellcasting can make that Mythic Limited Wish, which can duplicate Mythic Wizard/Sorcerer spells 6th level and below.
I have done my homework this time :)
You don't know the spell nor can cast the spell.
You have SLA, and I don't believe it should be enough. But whatever.The whole point of this thread was to know if a no-class level 20 with 10 mythic tiers could do something against a wizard 20.
The answer is maybe.
And I insist on "no-class", because the "fighter" part of the character contributes to nothing that the character does. (Yes, you can check the whole 1000+ posts, there are litterally nothing coming from the fighter, everything comes from the Mythic tiers).
Yes, this topic has achieved the fact of proving that the fighter can't contribute in any way against a high level wizard.
Large physical damage can come from anything. A commoner could do the same : you just need high strength + power attack to do that.
The unbreakable fighter is just a way to spare a mythic path ability, not a critical thing needed to defeat the wizard.
Again : nowhere in the topic you will get mention of fighter only things. You won't even see a huge number of feat, or absurdly high damage. You will just find enough damage to kill a 20th level wizard, which is easy for any character to achieve.
The mythic "fighter" in this thread uses at least one of those :
- Leadership to get a 17th wizard buddy.
- Mythic abilities to be able to cast spells/create items more or less as a 17th caster
And the non-mythic wizard is supposed to be limited in at least several of those ways :
- Not knowing anything about the fighter by skills or spells (no, undetectable does not prevent you from knowing things about the fighter, just the position of the fighter). Knowledge is about 50% of the power of a wizard, in my opinion. Knowing who you fight and what that enemy can do and is vulnerable to is the key to a wizard power.
- Fighting in an arena in a duel fight that favors martial fights (example : 200ft x 200ft arena)
- Not having access to several spells
- Not being able to use everything he could have done during her evolution (called outsiders, simulacrum built, creatures dominated, ...) except those called/created in the last day/week/month.
- Not being able to act smart because limited in actions (you must not leave or else you lose, you must not use a clone/astral projection/... or else you lose, you must not use a semi plane or else you lose, ...).
And even with all those things, the victory of the 10th tier 20th level is not even granted.
I hope I haven't done anything disingenuous (beyond, I admit, not doing very much as a fighter yet) or anything so crass. If I do anything disingenuous, I sincerely want someone to tell me. At least then I can explain my rationale.
That said, before I hit the hay, I thought of another use for that Mythic Limited Wish: Mythic Globe of Invulnerability.
I think I will enjoy my complete and utter immunity to all 10th level and lower non-mythic spells and spell like abilities (other than greater dispel magic/mage's disjunction)
-Would need 10 Tiers for this. Could possibly reduce required levels below 20, but will need to wait to see if this is shot down.
Id still want to be invisible/undetectable, but that takes a lot of the worry out of the picture.
Still, would need a source for Aroden's Spellbane against Dispel/Mage's Disjunction... (Im looking at you, Legendary Item)
Also, Blind Fight / Mythic Blind Fight replaces the scroll of Echolocation.
As the last thing tonight:
Tier 1 Longevity, Mythic Paragon
Tier 2 Commune with Power
Tier 3 Legendary Item (Undetectable, Foe Biting, Intelligent), Mythic Spell Casting
Tier 4 Divine Source (Protection Domain, Luck Domain)
Tier 5 Sleepless , M. Blind Fight
Tier 6 Blind Sense
Tier 7 Divine Source (Magic, Glory Sub, Construct Sub) ?Feat
Tier 8 Legendary Item - all three into intelligent(spellcasting) - get Aroden's Spellbane (9), Teleport (5), and Air Bubble (1))
Tier 9 ? ? Feat
Tier 10 ? Feat
Ive gotten rid of Feeblemind because both Limited Wish and Miracle will be able to replicate it if needed (I only ever used it on a daily basis once a geas had stuck, anyway)
I think I've neglected mentioning how I will have greater invisibility up. There are a couple ways for it, but for now I suppose we can assume a scroll
Missing: 2 Tier Abilities and 3 Mythic Feats.
Still need Ring of Invisibility, Wings of Flying, and Ring of Sustenance.
Tier 4 Divine Source (Protection Domain, Luck Domain)
I'm just quoting this now, but I believe you can't do that.
You need to take 2 alignment domains the first time you select the path ability.
Only at the second time you can select the domains you want.
The rule :
You can grant divine spells to those who follow your cause, allowing them to select you as their deity for the purposes of determining their spells and domains. Select two domains upon taking this ability. These domains must be alignment domains matching your alignment if possible, unless your alignment is neutral. You grant access to these domains as if you were a deity. Creatures that gain spells from you don't receive any spells per day of levels higher than your tier; they lose those spell slots. In addition, you can cast spells from domains you grant as long as their level is equal to or less than your tier. Each day as a spell-like ability, you can cast one spell of each level equal to or less than your tier (selecting from those available to you from your divine source domains). If you're a cleric or you venerate a deity, you may change your spell domains to those you grant others. At 6th tier and 9th tier, you can select this ability again, adding one domain and two subdomains to your list each time and adding their spells to the list of those that you can cast.
And I suppose you can't select a subdomain for a domain you haven't selected yet.
And your selection of mythic feats/mythic path abilities is exactly modeled as I wrote a couple posts ago : full of wizard things and nothing for fighter things.
Does the schrodinger Wizard (sorry Kthulhu, wizurd) have a schrodinger cat as a familiar?
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Does the schrodinger Wizard (sorry Kthulhu, wizurd) have a schrodinger cat as a familiar?
Please don't you also start the deliberately insulting misspelling as I said just having them do it is beginning to grate on me.
@Adept woodright
I've always missed that part myself so the first two domains you get are predetermined how annoying.
i have 2 problems with this thread.
1. it's a coop game, unless you have a very mean GM you will not be fighting a mythic tier fighter as a non mythic wizard. and thus all problems with fighters being under powered come from them not being able to do as much for the story line, or as much during an encounter as a wizard could. A wizard getting killed by a fighter does not prove that the fighter is any better of a class for pathfinder.
2. to truely be able to determine who would win in a fight, you would need perfect players. in essence this means player's who do not make mistakes, this means a full disclosure of information is required, even allowing counter builds. this applies the most stress to the system, allowing us to see exactly how and who would win.
i have 2 problems with this thread.
1. it's a coop game, unless you have a very mean GM you will not be fighting a mythic tier fighter as a non mythic wizard. and thus all problems with fighters being under powered come from them not being able to do as much for the story line, or as much during an encounter as a wizard could. A wizard getting killed by a fighter does not prove that the fighter is any better of a class for pathfinder.
2. to truely be able to determine who would win in a fight, you would need perfect players. in essence this means player's who do not make mistakes, this means a full disclosure of information is required, even allowing counter builds. this applies the most stress to the system, allowing us to see exactly how and who would win.
I get that it is a long thread, but your post doesn't even follow the line of logic presented in the OP.
The entire point is to determine how many mythic ranks are required to bring a fighter into line (both power and narrative wise) with the wizard.
Starting with 10 tiers is like a proof-of-concept.
i have 2 problems with this thread.
1. it's a coop game, unless you have a very mean GM you will not be fighting a mythic tier fighter as a non mythic wizard. and thus all problems with fighters being under powered come from them not being able to do as much for the story line, or as much during an encounter as a wizard could. A wizard getting killed by a fighter does not prove that the fighter is any better of a class for pathfinder.
2. to truely be able to determine who would win in a fight, you would need perfect players. in essence this means player's who do not make mistakes, this means a full disclosure of information is required, even allowing counter builds. this applies the most stress to the system, allowing us to see exactly how and who would win.
I get that it is a long thread, but your post doesn't even follow the line of logic presented in the OP.
The entire point is to determine how many mythic ranks are required to bring a fighter into line (both power and narrative wise) with the wizard.
Starting with 10 tiers is like a proof-of-concept.
but killing a wizard doesn't prove a fighter with mythic tiers makes a fighter stand up in coop with said wizard.
but killing a wizard doesn't prove a fighter with mythic tiers makes a fighter stand up in coop with said wizard.i have 2 problems with this thread.
1. it's a coop game, unless you have a very mean GM you will not be fighting a mythic tier fighter as a non mythic wizard. and thus all problems with fighters being under powered come from them not being able to do as much for the story line, or as much during an encounter as a wizard could. A wizard getting killed by a fighter does not prove that the fighter is any better of a class for pathfinder.
2. to truely be able to determine who would win in a fight, you would need perfect players. in essence this means player's who do not make mistakes, this means a full disclosure of information is required, even allowing counter builds. this applies the most stress to the system, allowing us to see exactly how and who would win.
I get that it is a long thread, but your post doesn't even follow the line of logic presented in the OP.
The entire point is to determine how many mythic ranks are required to bring a fighter into line (both power and narrative wise) with the wizard.
Starting with 10 tiers is like a proof-of-concept.
depends on the fight.
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The entire point is to determine how many mythic ranks are required to bring a fighter into line (both power and narrative wise) with the wizard.
And by now I think we can agree that no amount of mythic ranks can accomplish that. Oh sure, powers gained through mythic ranks can beat a wizard, at least if we restrict a wizard to roughly how wizards are used in official adventures. But the class beneath these mythic powers is practically irrelevant for the commonly suggested tactics.
Frankly this ended up as just another proof that fighter is simply a poor concept.
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And by now I think we can agree that no amount of mythic ranks can accomplish that. Oh sure, powers gained through mythic ranks can beat a wizard, at least if we restrict a wizard to roughly how wizards are used in official adventures. But the class beneath these mythic powers is practically irrelevant for the commonly suggested tactics.
The entire point is to determine how many mythic ranks are required to bring a fighter into line (both power and narrative wise) with the wizard.
That's not true. At least one of the earliest suggestions involved a magnificent enclosure, and I pointed out that the fighter posted on page 4 had enough attacks and enough damage to just break the walls down. It required full BAB and fighter-level damage to pull off, though.
This thread has entertained me massively.
Anzyr, do you have an answer to Mythic Cloudkill? It works like regular Cloudkill except it works on critters that are immune to poison and has (at this tier) all the HD limits raised by 10. Those Solar Simulacra? No-save-just-dead. Any Simulacra you can make are also dead unless you can make them with more than 13 HD.
Also, seriously, the whole thread is dying to know how you counter Undetectable. Because the wording is super clear; can't be detected by anyone ever. He could walk up to you and tap you on the shoulder and YOU WOULDN'T FEEL IT EVER.
That's only while the Fighter is invisible. And I have a plan to determine the Fighter's approximate location. Which should be all I'll need.
So, you only choose alignment domains if you aren't neutral. Granted, as written I've pigeon holed the fighter into being true neutral right now, but that can change if we ever lock down a set of abilities that will work.
I don't see where it specifies anything about subdomains, though one can certainly draw that conclusion from deity portfolios and the fact your clerics wouldn't then be able to select the subdomains. That said, a pretty huge sticking point so far has been that things must clearly be expressed in the rules for them to be limiting.
You are absolutely right though, I am not pulling on a fighter's strengths to do this. Does that show that fighters aren't as good (read, useful in combat) as wizards? I thought that was the point of the thread though, to overcome that with some number of mythic tiers.
And Anzyr, beyond the question of how you use your meta game to negate the benefit of undetectability... How are you making the character visible? At the moment, he is under a spellbane, provided by his legendary item, against Mage's Disjunction and Greater Dispel. That coincides with the mythic globe of invulnerability, that will block every other spell you can cast (up to level 10 -- it just has weakness to dispel magic)
I think I have been very forthcoming with the tactics that I think may have a shot at winning this. It is not very helpful to hide your own, in a thread based on the concept of getting the fighter to win.
Are you hesitating because mythic rules might overcome your tactics if we know them?
Are you hesitating because airing your tactics will make pvp that much harder in your future?
Either of those reasons are all well and good, but how can we get anything created without a build, if you won't even grace us with the knowledge of how our ideas can be overcome?
So, you only choose alignment domains if you aren't neutral. Granted, as written I've pigeon holed the fighter into being true neutral right now, but that can change if we ever lock down a set of abilities that will work.
Just spend a path ability on Beyond Morality.
It is what I do to avoid the crap domains. Also, take divine source more times, you can.
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So, you only choose alignment domains if you aren't neutral. Granted, as written I've pigeon holed the fighter into being true neutral right now, but that can change if we ever lock down a set of abilities that will work.Just spend a path ability on Beyond Morality.
It is what I do to avoid the crap domains. Also, take divine source more times, you can.
You'd still have to take two alignment domains it's just you could choose law/chaos/good/evil instead of having them predefined e.g. Good and evil rather than chaotic and good.
You'd still have to take two alignment domains it's just you could choose law/chaos/good/evil instead of having them predefined e.g. Good and evil rather than chaotic and good.So, you only choose alignment domains if you aren't neutral. Granted, as written I've pigeon holed the fighter into being true neutral right now, but that can change if we ever lock down a set of abilities that will work.Just spend a path ability on Beyond Morality.
It is what I do to avoid the crap domains. Also, take divine source more times, you can.
"Beyond Morality (Ex): You have no alignment. "
"These domains must be alignment domains matching your alignment if possible, unless your alignment is neutral."
So, you only choose alignment domains if you aren't neutral. Granted, as written I've pigeon holed the fighter into being true neutral right now, but that can change if we ever lock down a set of abilities that will work.
That's not the way I read it.
I understand it as : "You must take alignment domains, you must take ones matching your alignment first, except if you're neutral. Being neutral would let you choose any of the alignment domains.
You are absolutely right though, I am not pulling on a fighter's strengths to do this. Does that show that fighters aren't as good (read, useful in combat) as wizards? I thought that was the point of the thread though, to overcome that with some number of mythic tiers.
But the point of this thread was "How many tiers would a 20th fighter need to be about equal to a 20th level non-mythic wizard ?"
The answer is : "It doesn't matter, because adding Mythic tiers would make a comparison between a 10th tier 20th non-class character and a 20th wizard. So the way to make a fighter equal to a 20th level non-mythic wizard is to make the fighter part of the character invisible and give her Wizard-like powers."
And Anzyr, beyond the question of how you use your meta game to negate the benefit of undetectability... How are you making the character visible? At the moment, he is under a spellbane, provided by his legendary item, against Mage's Disjunction and Greater Dispel. That coincides with the mythic globe of invulnerability, that will block every other spell you can cast (up to level 10 -- it just has weakness to dispel magic)
First, Undetectable doesn't make your items undetectable.
Second, you can still dispel Spellbane, for example with SLA or SU abilities. If it prevents Mage's Disjunction and Greater dispel, dispel it with Dispel. If it prevents it, dispel it with Limited wish. If it prevents it, use Miracle, or Wish. You have multiple ways of doing things.
Are you hesitating because mythic rules might overcome your tactics if we know them?
A build can be countered. The difference between the fighter and the wizard being that the wizard CAN change her spell list every day, while the fighter is stuck with her choice for a very long time.
We had the proof from the first page : "Hey, I have a fighter that could do it", "No, you're not immune to Geas, so you're done", "Here is the solution to that", "Then I use this tactic", "Then I add this", ...
No build can be immune to everything and can handle everything. However, a wizard can change almost her whole build everyday (every spell). The fighter can't.
The 20th wizard have the skills and spells to know who he will fight, what are their strengths and weaknesses. He also has the means to fight without great risks (via clones/Astral projection), allowing her to come back after being prepared to fight the guy.
Are you hesitating because airing your tactics will make pvp that much harder in your future?
I don't understand why Anzyr doesn't want to show his build after the results have been given.
Either of those reasons are all well and good, but how can we get anything created without a build, if you won't even grace us with the knowledge of how our ideas can be overcome?
Builds doesn't show the strengths of a wizard.
A wizard build is a day-sheet. Yesterday, she had another build day-sheet, and tomorrow, she will have another build day-sheet. So the build of a wizard show the limitations of that wizard during a specific day.
You could develop the entire possibilities of a 20th level wizard, but it would take such a great length of time that it would be very unlikely to be exhaustive.
The answer is : "It doesn't matter, because adding Mythic tiers would make a comparison between a 10th tier 20th non-class character and a 20th wizard. So the way to make a fighter equal to a 20th level non-mythic wizard is to make the fighter part of the character invisible and give her Wizard-like powers."
But that's OK, and is somewhat the point. You can give the fighter a handful of "wizardy" powers but it still doesn't feel and play like a wizard. And depending on the choices; can still play and feel like a fighter. It isn't hugely different from wearing gear like ring of invisibility, or hat of disguise, or whatever. Those items can be worn by fighters and the character plays like a fighter. Same with mythic options.
Select two domains upon taking this ability. These domains must be alignment domains matching your alignment if possible, unless your alignment is neutral.
I think I see where you are getting your reading. Its a question as to whether "alignment domains matching your alignment if possible" is a single object with modifiers (leading to my interpretation) or an object with an additional set of modifiers.
To be more clear, if I am reading correctly, your interpretation goes equally well as "must be alignment domains [qualifying modifiers], unless [conditions on qualifying modifiers]."
Mine is "must be [object], unless [conditional statement]"
I know its a little disingenuous to follow the Deity Profiles for guidance in one aspect and not the other... but in this case there is actually room for interpretation. Neutral Deities do not have alignment domains, so I see no reason to prefer the less advantageous reading.
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First, Undetectable doesn't make your items undetectable.
What? Yeah, I suppose if you start letting them leave your person then they might not be undetectable. I think I managed to misread this, hopefully.
...Second, you can still dispel Spellbane, for example with SLA or SU abilities. If it prevents Mage's Disjunction and Greater dispel, dispel it with Dispel. If it prevents it, dispel it with Limited wish. If it prevents it, use Miracle, or Wish. You have multiple ways of doing things.
You cant target with Dispel, as we are invisible. However, to be sporting, we could go ahead and add that as a third negated spell. SLA and SU abilities that function as dispel magic effects (Area Greater Dispel/Mage's Disjunction) will be eaten by an antimagic field effect via Spellbane. Any other spell/spell-like ability/supernatural ability is eaten by the mythic globe of invulnerability.
Wish, Miracle, and Limited Wish each may be used to duplicate a particular spell. That said, there is a legitimate question as to how that is resolved. A number of people I've seen have supposed that the duplicated spell is equally suppressed by the Spellbane. However, it is irrelevant in this scenario: if the spell acts as dispel/disjunction, if is stopped by spellbane. If it acts as anything else, it is stopped by the globe of invulnerability.
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Builds doesn't show the strengths of a wizard.
That's why Im not asking him to post a build. I suppose I could have been clearer when I asked how we could get anything accomplished without a build...
My goal is to use Mythic Tiers to completely shut down any strategy that the wizard can come up with -- so that the build doesn't matter. Now that we have the globe of invulnerability, I think we're getting a lot closer to that.
LazarX : the point way back then was to come up with a wording for a geas. I don't think it is permissible, in the considered discussion, to use meta-knowledge like grid squares in the wording of the geas.
Anzyr, I suppose you could have simulacra of Pleroma Aeons. They get Wish and Mage's Disjunction without the vulnerability to Blasphemy/Holy Word.
You'd still need to know when to give them a command to release the Disjunction (difficult when you don't know where the opponent is). If the arena is limited, this is actually in your favor because you can guarantee full coverage.
I think I see where you are getting your reading. Its a question as to whether "alignment domains matching your alignment if possible" is a single object with modifiers (leading to my interpretation) or an object with an additional set of modifiers.
Fair enough. The ability is not clear enough to make one or the other interpretations be RAW.
What? Yeah, I suppose if you start letting them leave your person then they might not be undetectable. I think I managed to misread this, hopefully.
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It also means that your items are detectable via Detect Magic.
You are not detectable, but your items are. And magic auras coming from magic items in a specific area is suspicious enough to nuke the area with any spell you want.You cant target with Dispel, as we are invisible. However, to be sporting, we could go ahead and add that as a third negated spell. SLA and SU abilities that function as dispel magic effects (Area Greater Dispel/Mage's Disjunction) will be eaten by an antimagic field effect via Spellbane. Any other spell/spell-like ability/supernatural ability is eaten by the mythic globe of invulnerability.
Wish, Miracle, and Limited Wish each may be used to duplicate a particular spell. That said, there is a legitimate question as to how that is resolved. A number of people I've seen have supposed that the duplicated spell is equally suppressed by the Spellbane. However, it is irrelevant in this scenario: if the spell acts as dispel/disjunction, if is stopped by spellbane. If it acts as anything else, it is stopped by the globe of invulnerability...
To be fair, you can't use Aroden's spellbane with the Legendary item (you are limited to 5th level spells), or with Divine power (it is not a domain spell, and being a 9th level spell prevents it from being cast with Miracle).
So, you must cast it from scrolls, which mean you have to spend around 5000gp per day (and you can't craft those yourself).
Second, Aroden's spellbane can be countered by spellbane itself.
Third, the fact that it protects against SLA doesn't come from the spell itself, but from the very bad FAQ about SLA.
Fourth, nothing prevents the wizard from targeting the Spellbane itself (including with spell effects that can't be used inside the emanation).
That's why Im not asking him to post a build. I suppose I could have been clearer when I asked how we could get anything accomplished without a build...
My goal is to use Mythic Tiers to completely shut down any strategy that the wizard can come up with -- so that the build doesn't matter. Now that we have the globe of invulnerability, I think we're getting a lot closer to that.
Mythic globe of invulnerability that you can't do :
- You can't have it from Divine source (it isn't a domain spell)
- Limited wish could allow you to use Globe of invulnerability, but not the Mythic version, because you're not able to cast the mythic version (and is limited to allow casting of mythic spells you have prepared or know as a spontaneous caster).
I didn't read Mythic Limited wish entirely. The above part isn't true.
But even if you could, you would have those limitations :
- Maybe once a day
- For 20 rounds top
- Is immobile and visible
- Based on a FAQ instead of the rules (SLA are not spells in the rules)
I don't think it is a problem for a wizard.
It also means that your items are detectable via Detect Magic.
The protection domain is included for Mind Blank. It has been hundreds of posts since that last came up, so it'd be easy to miss/forget. -- also, this shouldn't be an issue. If you are detectable via someone reading an aura off of an item, the you are detectable via a particular means. However, you are not detectable by any means. Detect fails, regardless of Mind Blank. That was more for opponent planning/divination.
...As for the spellcasting on the Legendary Item, I am being incredibly pedantic in my reading. By taking the second ability when I qualify for all of the additional abilities for its second stage, I am able to designate all three abilities simultaneously. This nets me 15 points to use.
The full ability of the item would kick in 3 days after the legendary item ability is taken the second time, with some questionable effects during those three days.
And I suppose Aroden's Spellbane is as good as any for a 4th spell for our own spellbane. It would only matter within 10 ft (it was extended, so not enlarged, if I recall), at which point it'd be a toss up whether or not I am already going for the kill.
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Casting SLAs is sufficient to qualify for abilities that require 'cast x spell'.
The whole 'limiting simulacra' deal was to point out that: by using your inherent class ability to effectively gain infinite CR 8+ followers with spellcasting as a 17th level wizard... what was the point of saying a fighter shouldn't use Leadership to get a wizard?
You spend 2 mythic power to cast any wizard mythic spell of 6th level or lower with Mythic Limited Wish.
It would be once a day, for somewhere between 12-24 rounds (it could be Mythic Tier, HD, or double Mythic Tier)
It is an emanation, centered on you, the same as Spellbane/Antimagic Field. It moves with you, and is protected via mindblank/undetectable.
I am confident in using FAQs.
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I don't think anyone countered something from earlier. For this character set up, a 200x200 arena actually favors the wizard. He can spread a reasonable number of simulacra around to spam Disjunction until the Fighter is hosed. -- I would build entirely differently for that scenario. As is, I'm going for a fight that will take an incredibly long time to draw to conclusion -- why I have Longevity.
Also, limiting simulacra was a thought I had in relation to the fighter taking Leadership for a wizard cohort. We agreed a long time ago that that was pointless... after all, we are trying to compare a fighter to a wizard. If the wizard uses class abilities to gain infinite CR8+ followers with 17th level casting, then the fighter following a limitation like 'no leadership' is a pretty harsh penalty.
The protection domain is included for Mind Blank. It has been hundreds of posts since that last came up, so it'd be easy to miss/forget. -- also, this shouldn't be an issue. If you are detectable via someone reading an aura off of an item, the you are detectable via a particular means.
Undetectable doesn't protect your worn items.
But Mind blank does, so whatever.
As for the spellcasting on the Legendary Item, I am being incredibly pedantic in my reading. By taking the second ability when I qualify for all of the additional abilities for its second stage, I am able to designate all three abilities simultaneously. This nets me 15 points to use.
No, it grants you 3 times 5 points to spend. It's entirely different.
When you use 3 vibrant purple ioun stones, you don't get to stock a 9th level spell but 3 times up to 3 levels of spell(s).
The same here : 3 times up to 5 points to spend, and you can't stock them from one using to another, or respend them everytime you take the Intelligent power (contrary to an eidolon's evolution points).
Moreover, taking Intelligent 3 times only allows you to take Spellcasting 2 times.
And I suppose Aroden's Spellbane is as good as any for a 4th spell for our own spellbane. It would only matter within 10 ft (it was extended, so not enlarged, if I recall), at which point it'd be a toss up whether or not I am already going for the kill.
You could, but that wouldn't save your spellbane... ^^
Casting SLAs is sufficient to qualify for abilities that require 'cast x spell'.
The FAQ says that, and it is way different than what exists in the rules. FAQ isn't errata, unless I'm mistaken.
The whole 'limiting simulacra' deal was to point out that: by using your inherent class ability to effectively gain infinite CR 8+ followers with spellcasting as a 17th level wizard... what was the point of saying a fighter shouldn't use Leadership to get a wizard?
You spend 2 mythic power to cast any wizard mythic spell of 6th level or lower with Mythic Limited Wish.
The important word here is Class ability. The wizard alone does that.
Of course, you could take Leadership and have a 17th wizard as a follower, but that would even less prove the power of the fighter, don't you think ?It would be once a day, for somewhere between 12-24 rounds (it could be Mythic Tier, HD, or double Mythic Tier)
That's IF you didn't have to use Limited wish for anything else that day.
And that duration is so low it's ridiculous.I won't even mention that casting this would make a sphere appear around you, so all your Undetectable + invisible + mind blank completly useless.
It is an emanation, centered on you, the same as Spellbane/Antimagic Field. It moves with you, and is protected via mindblank/undetectable.
It is immobile. Check the spell.
@ Adept - Regarding the comments in the other thread related to leadership.
From my perspective, the idea of this contest is to look at mythic ranks as a means of making a full bab *class* of comparable power to that of a wizard. To that end, I propose that leadership be banned because it neither originates from the mythic subsystem, nor the class features of any class. Please note the difference between class features and character levels here.
The second issue is simply that if one character has access to leadership, then there is no logical reason not to take it on the other as there are no stronger feats than leadership. Finally, the wizard, having access to simulacrum and blood money( totally valid in my opinion because these spells are taken with class features) will undoubtedly have a more potent cohort with all sorts of bonuses the fighter would be hard pressed to emulate.
...now people are trying to misinterpret legendary item.
You don't have to spend the points, you can save up.
Fighters get feats. Feats that the wizard can get too. So banning leadership is just like banning power attack under the idea that people should only be using class specific features. If we are banning leadership for brokeness then most of the wizard's tricks would also be banned.
People are just being biased.
...now people are trying to misinterpret legendary item.
You don't have to spend the points, you can save up.
Fighters get feats. Feats that the wizard can get too. So banning leadership is just like banning power attack under the idea that people should only be using class specific features. If we are banning leadership for brokeness then most of the wizard's tricks would also be banned.
People are just being biased.
Actually, fighters get combat feats. Fighters never get general feats from class progression, I don't think anyone does. I don't think this a biased position. Everything I've stated is true.
You don't have to spend the points, you can save up.
In pathfinder, you can't save up anything for later.
You can't save up feats, skill ranks, spells chosen when you level, etc...So unless Spellcasting has a specific text that goes against the general rule, it can't be saved up.
I get what you're arguing, and by premise I agree. However, I submit that the wizard with Leadership + infinite level 9 Spells and action economy from simulacra will realistically have significantly less benefit from Leadership than a fighter -- who otherwise has no help in the fight.
I made a point earlier that something akin to 280 simulacra (that have taken no resources from the wizard, other than time and some STR gaining tricks) would raise the CR of an encounter from 20 to 25 -- essentially eliminating the maximum theoretical benefit of having 10 mythic tiers.
Its only really a problem to me because the main tactic proposed to counter the fighter has been:
-pre-populate the field (arena in the other thread, but Country/Plane in this argument) with as many simulacra as needed to ensure that they manage to strip the protections away with minimal chance of failure or possibly missing.
-recognize that an undetectable fighter is in an area (through meta-game or similar action -- were not sure yet because the main strategy to counter this particular thing is not being shared by the person who assures us there is a way)
After the simulacrums have all expended their Disjunction/Greater Dispel, they no longer enter the argument at all as far as I have been concerned.
Do you see why I don't think another cohort for the wizard matters? Whereas, the fighter's main class feature is the shear number of feats available (even if the bonus feats are only Combat Feats, that means many feats otherwise needed for the class are free for non-combat feats. Would it be more palatable if I took Leadership through a Mythic ability? Because that exists too.
...
It is immobile? Is that how emanations, centered on the caster work? Because if that's the case, then Spellbane doesn't work either.
And you seem to be very sure that the Undetectable ability actually has a counter that will allow one to determine location even if that person is invisible.
The Rules text is clear: can not be detected or scryed by any means.
It is really as simple as that. Every time you come up with a solution to 'detect creature' that is undetectable, one needs only refer back to that rule.
...
As for a spellbane cancelling another spellbane that is configured to cancel it, the rules of Antimagic Fields gives "Two or more antimagic fields sharing any of the same space have no effect on each other." Youd have a Venn Diagram of spell cancellation (both spellbanes do, however, need to protect against the other)
You don't have to spend the points, you can save up.In pathfinder, you can't save up anything for later.
You can't save up feats, skill ranks, spells chosen when you level, etc...So unless Spellcasting has a specific text that goes against the general rule, it can't be saved up.
You know how and why you are full of it.
If you really don't, I can safely ignore your input too.
You don't have to spend the points, you can save up.In pathfinder, you can't save up anything for later.
You can't save up feats, skill ranks, spells chosen when you level, etc...So unless Spellcasting has a specific text that goes against the general rule, it can't be saved up.
You know how and why you are full of it.
If you really don't, I can safely ignore your input too.
Full of what ?
Can you quote something allowing you to save up those points ? No.
I get what you're arguing, and by premise I agree. However, I submit that the wizard with Leadership + infinite level 9 Spells and action economy from simulacra will realistically have significantly less benefit from Leadership than a fighter -- who otherwise has no help in the fight.
I made a point earlier that something akin to 280 simulacra (that have taken no resources from the wizard, other than time and some STR gaining tricks) would raise the CR of an encounter from 20 to 25 -- essentially eliminating the maximum theoretical benefit of having 10 mythic tiers.
Its only really a problem to me because the main tactic proposed to counter the fighter has been:
-pre-populate the field (arena in the other thread, but Country/Plane in this argument) with as many simulacra as needed to ensure that they manage to strip the protections away with minimal chance of failure or possibly missing.
-recognize that an undetectable fighter is in an area (through meta-game or similar action -- were not sure yet because the main strategy to counter this particular thing is not being shared by the person who assures us there is a way)After the simulacrums have all expended their Disjunction/Greater Dispel, they no longer enter the argument at all as far as I have been concerned.
Do you see why I don't think another cohort for the wizard matters? Whereas, the fighter's main class feature is the shear number of feats available (even if the bonus feats are only Combat Feats, that means many feats otherwise needed for the class are free for non-combat feats. Would it be more palatable if I took Leadership through a Mythic ability? Because that exists too.
At the end of the day, its up to you guys what you do. I only offer this position because I feel that your concerns about Simulacrums and the like are specifically why wizards are so potent.
To be clear, I don't think that the tactics that anzyr suggests are fun or even something you should ever do in a game, but they are valid tactics from a rules based perspective. The wizard class can do these things through class features and that's why they represent the real power of the wizard.
Leadership represents literally nothing of the power of the fighter class or the mythic tier system. In addition, leadership will make adjudication of this little contest even more difficult( good luck to the poor sucker who gets sucked into that).
It is immobile? Is that how emanations, centered on the caster work? Because if that's the case, then Spellbane doesn't work either.
You seem to be unable to check yourself the spell even when asked to :
An immobile, faintly shimmering magical sphere surrounds you and excludes all spell effects of 3rd level or lower. The area or effect of any such spells does not include the area of the lesser globe of invulnerability. Such spells fail to affect any target located within the globe. Excluded effects include spell-like abilities and spells or spell-like effects from items. Any type of spell, however, can be cast through or out of the magical globe. Spells of 4th level and higher are not affected by the globe, nor are spells already in effect when the globe is cast. The globe can be brought down by a dispel magic spell. You can leave and return to the globe without penalty.
Note that spell effects are not disrupted unless their effects enter the globe, and even then they are merely suppressed, not dispelled.
If a given spell has more than one level depending on which character class is casting it, use the level appropriate to the caster to determine whether lesser globe of invulnerability stops it.
Now let's look at Aroden's Spellbane :
This spell creates an area within which spells selected by you simply do not function.
Select one spell per five caster levels at the time of casting. The spells selected cannot be changed after the spell is cast. This spell otherwise functions like antimagic field, except its emanation only prevents the functioning of the selected spells. Only the exact spells mentioned are affected—a spellbane set to prevent the casting of summon nature’s ally II would not prevent castings of summon nature’s ally I or summon nature’s ally III. If you move into an area where a previously cast spell you have selected as a banned spell is in effect, that spell is affected as if by antimagic field. If the spell affects a summoned creature that has spell resistance, you must make a caster level check against the creature’s spell resistance to make it wink out.
And with Antimagic Field it is written :
An invisible barrier surrounds you and moves with you. The space within this barrier is impervious to most magical effects, including spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. Likewise, it prevents the functioning of any magic items or spells within its confines.
You are following the steps:
Take Legendary item.
select spellcasting
distribute points
select spellcasting
distribute points
select spellcasting
distribute points
We are taking the following steps:
Take Legendary Item.
select spellcasting 3 times
distribute points
It is a pedantic reading: taken the second time after Tier 6 (Tier 4 w/ Mythic Paragon), the Legendary Item grants you three abilities to distribute, which will slowly be installed over 3 days. We are doing no saving whatsoever.
When you take the mythic ability, you select what abilities your item will gain (3 of them). Then, you resolve the effects of those abilities before the day is out (really instantaneously)
Without proper planning, you only get 5 pts for every tier.
...
Then there is a disagreement between the text of the spell and the Range of the spell.
The range is clearly '10 ft emanation, centered on you'
CRB Magic section gives
An emanation spell functions like a burst spell, except that the effect continues to radiate from the point of origin for the duration of the spell. Most emanations are cones or spheres.
The point of origin is the caster.
You are following the steps:
Take Legendary item.
select spellcasting
distribute points
select spellcasting
distribute points
select spellcasting
distribute pointsWe are taking the following steps:
Take Legendary Item.
select spellcasting 3 times
distribute pointsIt is a pedantic reading: taken the second time after Tier 6 (Tier 4 w/ Mythic Paragon), the Legendary Item grants you three abilities to distribute, which will slowly be installed over 3 days. We are doing no saving whatsoever.
When you take the mythic ability, you select what abilities your item will gain (3 of them). Then, you resolve the effects of those abilities before the day is out (really instantaneously)
Without proper planning, you only get 5 pts for every tier.
Let's suppose you take it at 3rd level. You get Intelligent x3, which grant Spellcasting (5 points) x2.
The first day, your item become intelligent.
The second day, your first set of 5 points as you spent them are added to the item.
The third day, your second set of 5 points as you spent them are added to the item.
Any one familiar with leveling rules of Pathfinder would know about this.
It is the exact same with Feats, Skill ranks, or anything. You can't save up things for later.
It is certainly reasonable to see it that way.
You know. I almost went into a pretty petty argument about pedantics (because the rule designers have better things to do than shore up arguments that will be cleared up by any reasonable GM - and I'm not claiming here that my argument is reasonable, mind you)
But I didn't. I'm not really sure I care enough.
So here we go. Every day, I use a scroll of Aroden's Spellbane. Days that I do not find the caster, I gain enough money through adventuring/stealing while undetectable and mindblanked that I can continue this practice.
If we are assuming that we are in an arena, this is all moot, because a scroll is all that I would want anyway.
....
I only really wanted the Globe of invulnerability to survive the carpet bombing by 100s+ simulacra with area effects/Wishes/etc.
I can be immobile for that... unless he plans to do it every round with 25x100s+ simulacra, for 25 rounds.
Which sure, why not. He has Blood Money, right?
As for a spellbane cancelling another spellbane that is configured to cancel it, the rules of Antimagic Fields gives "Two or more antimagic fields sharing any of the same space have no effect on each other." Youd have a Venn Diagram of spell cancellation (both spellbanes do, however, need to protect against the other)
Did you even read the spell before posting ?
This spell creates an area within which spells selected by you simply do not function.
Select one spell per five caster levels at the time of casting. The spells selected cannot be changed after the spell is cast. This spell otherwise functions like antimagic field, except its emanation only prevents the functioning of the selected spells. Only the exact spells mentioned are affected—a spellbane set to prevent the casting of summon nature’s ally II would not prevent castings of summon nature’s ally I or summon nature’s ally III. If you move into an area where a previously cast spell you have selected as a banned spell is in effect, that spell is affected as if by antimagic field. If the spell affects a summoned creature that has spell resistance, you must make a caster level check against the creature’s spell resistance to make it wink out.
This spell can even negate an antimagic field, another instance of this spell, or any spell that specifies immunity to antimagic field (such as wall of force, prismatic sphere, and prismatic wall). Multiple spellbane effects can overlap. Their effects stack, preventing the functioning of every spell targeted by any of the multiple spellbane emanations. Spell effects created by artifacts or deities cannot be suppressed by this spell.
As such, if 2 aroden's spellbane share some space, and at least one of them prevent Aroden's spellbane to function, then both Spellbane cease to function while they share the space (because, they are mutually negating each other).
So here we go. Every day, I use a scroll of Aroden's Spellbane. Days that I do not find the caster, I gain enough money through adventuring/stealing while undetectable and mindblanked that I can continue this practice.
And what does the wizard does when he doesn't find the fighter ?
The same.So, the fighter should be allowed to win 5000+ gp a day, but not the wizard.
I think I start to understand your criterias to say a fighter can fight a wizard and win :
- 10 mythic tiers
- Tiers spend towards "wizard" stuff and nothing else
- 5000gp+ fighter salary but nothing for the wizard.
- Forbidding the wizard to bring what she could have gathered (outsiders, dominated creatures, simulacrum, ...) during her carreer, except the last week.
- Forbidding the wizard to use any skill or spell that would bring info about the fighter.
- An arena because otherwise the fight would never have a reason to even happen.
- An arena because otherwise the fighter would never have a reason to know the wizard even exists.
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Ah. I stopped at the point where they act as Antimagic Fields.
I apologize for upsetting you... I think I'm going to take a break from this forum for a while.
Apparently I've gotten too hasty with posts because of the speed of this forum, and the quality is degrading. I am actually sincerely apologetic.
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I don't care what the wizard does. He can get 100000 every day: it doesn't matter. He *already* completely blew WBL expectation out of the water.
Its easy to get lost in this thread, but I'll make it clear. I was arguing against simulacrums because it shifts the real purpose of the game, but I never outright said I wouldn't participate in the infinite simulacrum duel anyway. In fact, that was the *only* reason I was trying to get so many protections.
An arena, because otherwise the wizard *would have no reason, ever* to know where the fighter is.
I also never was a proponent of the duel, nor the terms of it. I do not believe it will answer the question.
--
Yeah, Im done for now.
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Ah. I stopped at the point where they act as Antimagic Fields.
I apologize for upsetting you... I think I'm going to take a break from this forum for a while.
Apparently I've gotten too hasty with posts because of the speed of this forum, and the quality is degrading. I am actually sincerely apologetic.
--
I don't care what the wizard does. He can get 100000 every day: it doesn't matter. He *already* completely blew WBL expectation out of the water.
--
Yeah, Im done for now
What I wrote wasn't directed at you specifically, but some people on this thread made a huge number of false ideas about some spells, and even showing them the rule doesn't change their minds.
And with the repetition for a thousand posts, it can be very very annoying to repeat the same and the same again and again.
If I did upset you in any way, that wasn't my goal and I would apologize.
I'm not upset. I realize now that in my haste to come up with a plan and keep up with the posting rate, I overlooked actually reading everything in the minute detail it should have been afforded.
That's why I'm backing away. To regain perspective.
i think that in any real world scenario, the ability for a wizard to just send simulacra at the mythic fighter until he finds an effective strategy telling...
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So while prepping stuff, I realized something awesome (for me). Time to cave to peer pressure. Wizard fight is on.
i'll believe that when i see it.
I think I'll watch what happens here for a while instead of posting.
I bet it will be good... *gets popcorn*
So while prepping stuff, I realized something awesome (for me). Time to cave to peer pressure. Wizard fight is on.
4 Days later
*Sound of crickets chirping*
*Tumbleweed blows by*
- Torger
Uh... I'm not posting it here. You can get from andreww after the fight.
So while prepping stuff, I realized something awesome (for me). Time to cave to peer pressure. Wizard fight is on.4 Days later
*Sound of crickets chirping*
*Tumbleweed blows by*
- Torger
At first I thought you were quoting me. My expectations for another 1000 posts in a few days have sadly been shattered. Not even the other thread is exploding.
I am disappoint.