| Anzyr |
On Mage's Magnificent Enclosure:
prd wrote:
Somatic (S)A somatic component is a measured and precise movement of the hand. You must have at least one hand free to provide a somatic component.
MME wrote:
Components V, S, M (a sphere of glass worth 100 gp and an iron nail, with which you pierce the glass on casting)So the wizards has to use one hand to cast the somatic component, one to pierce the glass with a nail, and a third hand to hold the metamagic reach rod.
He only has two hands so he can't.
You only need one hand to use material components and perform Somantic components. That's the rules. Sorry better luck next time.
| andreww |
On Mage's Magnificent Enclosure:
prd wrote:
Somatic (S)A somatic component is a measured and precise movement of the hand. You must have at least one hand free to provide a somatic component.
MME wrote:
Components V, S, M (a sphere of glass worth 100 gp and an iron nail, with which you pierce the glass on casting)So the wizards has to use one hand to cast the somatic component, one to pierce the glass with a nail, and a third hand to hold the metamagic reach rod.
He only has two hands so he can't.
You can manipulate material components with the same hand you use for somatic components otherwise lots of different casters simply don't work.
| Shadowkire |
Shadowkire wrote:You only need one hand to use material components and perform Somantic components. That's the rules. Sorry better luck next time.On Mage's Magnificent Enclosure:
prd wrote:
Somatic (S)A somatic component is a measured and precise movement of the hand. You must have at least one hand free to provide a somatic component.
MME wrote:
Components V, S, M (a sphere of glass worth 100 gp and an iron nail, with which you pierce the glass on casting)So the wizards has to use one hand to cast the somatic component, one to pierce the glass with a nail, and a third hand to hold the metamagic reach rod.
He only has two hands so he can't.
Citation? I am looking at the rules, but it is a lot to read so maybe I am missing it/looking in the wrong spots.
| Anzyr |
Anzyr wrote:Citation? I am looking at the rules, but it is a lot to read so maybe I am missing it/looking in the wrong spots.Shadowkire wrote:You only need one hand to use material components and perform Somantic components. That's the rules. Sorry better luck next time.On Mage's Magnificent Enclosure:
prd wrote:
Somatic (S)A somatic component is a measured and precise movement of the hand. You must have at least one hand free to provide a somatic component.
MME wrote:
Components V, S, M (a sphere of glass worth 100 gp and an iron nail, with which you pierce the glass on casting)So the wizards has to use one hand to cast the somatic component, one to pierce the glass with a nail, and a third hand to hold the metamagic reach rod.
He only has two hands so he can't.
To cast a spell with a material (M), focus (F), or divine focus (DF) component, you have to have the proper materials, as described by the spell. Unless these components are elaborate, preparing them is a free action. For material components and focuses whose costs are not listed in the spell description, you can assume that you have them if you have your spell component pouch.
| Shadowkire |
Shadowkire wrote:Anzyr wrote:Citation? I am looking at the rules, but it is a lot to read so maybe I am missing it/looking in the wrong spots.Shadowkire wrote:You only need one hand to use material components and perform Somantic components. That's the rules. Sorry better luck next time.On Mage's Magnificent Enclosure:
prd wrote:
Somatic (S)A somatic component is a measured and precise movement of the hand. You must have at least one hand free to provide a somatic component.
MME wrote:
Components V, S, M (a sphere of glass worth 100 gp and an iron nail, with which you pierce the glass on casting)So the wizards has to use one hand to cast the somatic component, one to pierce the glass with a nail, and a third hand to hold the metamagic reach rod.
He only has two hands so he can't.
PRD wrote:To cast a spell with a material (M), focus (F), or divine focus (DF) component, you have to have the proper materials, as described by the spell. Unless these components are elaborate, preparing them is a free action. For material components and focuses whose costs are not listed in the spell description, you can assume that you have them if you have your spell component pouch.
The component of MME calls out an action to be taken during casting, which counts as elaborate AND has a listed price. How does your quote negate the need for a third hand?
LazarX
|
Shisumo wrote:You misunderstand. You can't take "special initiative actions" like readying outside of initiative, and once you are in initiative you don't have actions until your initiative count comes up.Inside combat I completely agree. However, to say you cannot ever, possibly, under any circumstance anticipate an attack unless you're already being attacked is absurd. That should fall under the common sense arena.
Not any more than somene saying that a person can be in combat initiative mode 24/7.
When you're not in combat mode you can't use the ready action rules which are exclusively written for combat.
| Cerberus Seven |
On Mage's Magnificent Enclosure:
prd wrote:
Somatic (S)A somatic component is a measured and precise movement of the hand. You must have at least one hand free to provide a somatic component.
MME wrote:
Components V, S, M (a sphere of glass worth 100 gp and an iron nail, with which you pierce the glass on casting)So the wizards has to use one hand to cast the somatic component, one to pierce the glass with a nail, and a third hand to hold the metamagic reach rod.
He only has two hands so he can't.
Y'know, RAI I would totally adjudicate this as being possible with two hands. It seems pretty obvious that that's what they meant.
But then, this thread is NOTHING if not ignoring RAI in favor of RAW. Few are quite as insistent on that particular point as you, Anzyr. I'm not sure anyone could reasonably let this one slide unless we wave the "RAW or bust" attitude that's consumed this thread so far.
| Anzyr |
Shadowkire wrote:On Mage's Magnificent Enclosure:
prd wrote:
Somatic (S)A somatic component is a measured and precise movement of the hand. You must have at least one hand free to provide a somatic component.
MME wrote:
Components V, S, M (a sphere of glass worth 100 gp and an iron nail, with which you pierce the glass on casting)So the wizards has to use one hand to cast the somatic component, one to pierce the glass with a nail, and a third hand to hold the metamagic reach rod.
He only has two hands so he can't.
Y'know, RAI I would totally adjudicate this as being possible with two hands. It seems pretty obvious that that's what they meant.
But then, this thread is NOTHING if not ignoring RAI in favor of RAW. Few are quite as insistent on that particular point as you, Anzyr. I'm not sure anyone could reasonably let this one slide unless we wave the "RAW or bust" attitude that's consumed this thread so far.
Show me where it is defined as elaborate and I'll agree with you. Otherwise hard RAW has my back.
| Trimalchio |
I'll give a quick write up for an arena:
The Cage
A greater demiplane rumored to be divinely created.
Mildly neutral aligned, gravity normal, always daylight, time normal. The Cage is a rectangular prism 800 feet by 800 feet with a 30 foot ceiling. The floor is trodden dirt, the walls and ceiling appear to be chain link mesh of metal. Walls of force provide a layer between the Cage and the astral plane.
Special: any scrying spell can target any area in The Cage and never fails.
~
Rules, contestants are allowed practically any amount of time to prepare, but are never told who their follow contestant will be; assume divine intervention prevents any meaningful information to be gathered before the battle begins. Both contestants must planeshift into the area on the same round(this round is announced to both contestants 3 minutes before hand) appearing in a random square (x,y,z). Initiative is rolled and surprise round begins, however neither contestant is considered flat-footed. Contestants unable or unwilling to planeshift will be provided a couatl, but must lower their SR if any and fail the will save, the couatl does not planeshift with the contestant.
Leaving The Cage is automatic forfeiture.
~~
Anymore rules needed? I personally would suggest limits to simulacrum and planar binding but that's just me.
| Cuuniyevo |
Artanthos wrote:andreww wrote:Provide a RAW saying that the spell ends your turn. As it stands it takes a standard action to cast and gives you 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time. That's it. In the absence of anything saying that you lose the rest of your turn you don't. Anything else is you adding stuff to the spell which isn't there.Pathfinder is a game where if it is not in the rules, it does not happen. Nothing in the rules states your turn continues after the spell duration ends.
Also: the wizard does not know the spell duration. He has to guess when the spell will end.
Wizards do know spell durations. Especially if a Maximized Time Stop provides the same amount of time every time.
Pathfinder is a game of rules. The rules say you get a Swift, a move and a standard action on your turn. Time Stop says that as a Standard Action (casting the spell) you can move for 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time. If you have not used up your move or Swift Action when you return to "real time" you still have them. Because there is nothing that has taken them away.
You say you know spell durations, but it seems you're forgetting that casting a spell via metamagic rods makes the casting a full-round action. Citation: Ultimate Equipment page 187. You use up your entire action to cast Maximized Time-Stop. Your turn ends as soon as the spell does.
| Cerberus Seven |
Show me where it is defined as elaborate and I'll agree with you. Otherwise hard RAW has my back.
I'm sure it might (I'm serious, btw; your knowledge of the system is actually impressive) if you posted the details of how you plan to puncture a sphere of solid glass with a nail using one hand while hovering in mid-air and your other hand is busy doing two different things at once, all in a simple and quick fashion (i.e. the opposite of elaborate). I'm sure a LOT of these questions would dry up if you provided details about your build, methods, etc. Not to say you haven't been somewhat forthcoming, but it's still only the tiniest step forward compared to what others have done in posting whole character builds. If you want people to really acknowledge you've got it all figured out expertly and with no loose ends, and from your continued participation in this thread I can only assume that's the case, best to actually start playing on the same level field as everyone else. Otherwise, why bother with this continued back and forth?
| Anzyr |
I'll give a quick write up for an arena:
The Cage
A greater demiplane rumored to be divinely created.
Mildly neutral aligned, gravity normal, always daylight, time normal. The Cage is a rectangular prism 800 feet by 800 feet with a 30 foot ceiling. The floor is trodden dirt, the walls and ceiling appear to be chain link mesh of metal. Walls of force provide a layer between the Cage and the astral plane.
Special: any scrying spell can target any area in The Cage and never fails.
~Rules, contestants are allowed practically any amount of time to prepare, but are never told who their follow contestant will be; assume divine intervention prevents any meaningful information to be gathered before the battle begins. Both contestants must planeshift into the area on the same round(this round is announced to both contestants 3 minutes before hand) appearing in a random square (x,y,z). Initiative is rolled and surprise round begins, however neither contestant is considered flat-footed. Contestants unable or unwilling to planeshift will be provided a couatl, but must lower their SR if any and fail the will save, the couatl does not planeshift with the contestant.
Leaving The Cage is automatic forfeiture.
~~Anymore rules needed? I personally would suggest limits to simulacrum and planar binding but that's just me.
I'd drop the special line. And contestants who haven't acted yet should absolutely be flat-footed. I'm willing to concede free information gathering, which is a major advantage to me.
| Anzyr |
Anzyr wrote:Show me where it is defined as elaborate and I'll agree with you. Otherwise hard RAW has my back.I'm sure it might (I'm serious, btw; your knowledge of the system is actually impressive) if you posted the details of how you plan to puncture a sphere of solid glass with a nail using one hand while hovering in mid-air and your other hand is busy doing two different things at once, all in a simple and quick fashion (i.e. the opposite of elaborate). I'm sure a LOT of these questions would dry up if you provided details about your build, methods, etc. Not to say you haven't been somewhat forthcoming, but it's still only the tiniest step forward compared to what others have done in posting whole character builds. If you want people to really acknowledge you've got it all figured out expertly and with no loose ends, and from your continued participation in this thread I can only assume that's the case, best to actually start playing on the same level field as everyone else. Otherwise, why bother with this continued back and forth?
Rules say Free action. And I can absolutely pierce a Glass Orb with a nail using only one hand and then wave out the somatic components. If you can't do this with one hand it seems like a personal problem. My Explosive Runes method is thus far unstopped. And I like I said, find a neutral RAW GM and a an opponent who can agree to conditions and I'll break out something truly unfair.
| andreww |
You say you know spell durations, but it seems you're forgetting that casting a spell via metamagic rods makes the casting a full-round action. Citation: Ultimate Equipment page 187. You use up your entire action to cast Maximized Time-Stop. Your turn ends as soon as the spell does.
Only for spontaneous casters and I would imagine Anzyr is using multiple Staves of the Master Necromancer which explicitly don't increase the casting time.
| Anzyr |
What does the action being free have to do with how many hands are involved? I don't happen to agree with Shadowkire here, but I don't understand your counterargument.
Because the rules say you only need one free hand to prepare components and perform somatic components. Thus allowing the Magus class to function.
| Anzyr |
Cuuniyevo wrote:You say you know spell durations, but it seems you're forgetting that casting a spell via metamagic rods makes the casting a full-round action. Citation: Ultimate Equipment page 187. You use up your entire action to cast Maximized Time-Stop. Your turn ends as soon as the spell does.Only for spontaneous casters and I would imagine Anzyr is using multiple Staves of the Master Necromancer which explicitly don't increase the casting time.
andreww has the right of it, but to further compact how mistaken you are Cuuniyevo, when a Wizard uses a metamagic rod the spell does not get an increased casting time.
A sorcerer still must take a full-round action when using a metamagic rod, just as if using a metamagic feat he possesses (except for quicken metamagic rods, which can be used as a swift action).
Sorry, but that line is Sorcerer only. Yet another reason to love Staff of the Master (Necromancy) though.
| Trogdar |
I'll give a quick write up for an arena:
The Cage
A greater demiplane rumored to be divinely created.
Mildly neutral aligned, gravity normal, always daylight, time normal. The Cage is a rectangular prism 800 feet by 800 feet with a 30 foot ceiling. The floor is trodden dirt, the walls and ceiling appear to be chain link mesh of metal. Walls of force provide a layer between the Cage and the astral plane.
Special: any scrying spell can target any area in The Cage and never fails.
~Rules, contestants are allowed practically any amount of time to prepare, but are never told who their follow contestant will be; assume divine intervention prevents any meaningful information to be gathered before the battle begins. Both contestants must planeshift into the area on the same round(this round is announced to both contestants 3 minutes before hand) appearing in a random square (x,y,z). Initiative is rolled and surprise round begins, however neither contestant is considered flat-footed. Contestants unable or unwilling to planeshift will be provided a couatl, but must lower their SR if any and fail the will save, the couatl does not planeshift with the contestant.
Leaving The Cage is automatic forfeiture.
~~Anymore rules needed? I personally would suggest limits to simulacrum and planar binding but that's just me.
these special rules favor the martial don't you think? Thirty foot ceilings, divination auto success so mind blank and invisibility doesn't work. True seeing will shut down most defense... Just give it to the fighter.
| Trimalchio |
these special rules favor the martial don't you think? Thirty foot ceilings, divination auto success so mind blank and invisibility doesn't work. True seeing will shut down most defense... Just give it to the fighter.
divination auto success? The special is mostly just flavor text so people can attempt to watch the match, it can be reworded if needed or removed since it is just intended fluff. Divine intervention from divination is to prevent extensive CoP abuse and only in effect before the match. Not having access to one anothers character sheet is important I think (until after the match).
Senko
|
I've been staying out of this as comparing a mythic character to a nonmythic one seems pointless to me however I want to point out a few things.
1) You can make contingency spells as arbitrary and complex as you like it just says those kinds of things may fail I.e. gm adjudication. A contingency to "teleport me away whenever an event occurs that would kill me" seems fairly straightforward
2) I don't think line if effect works like that if you have line of effect to the stack of runes you can affect them. Otherwise you could protect all your magic items from disjunction by wrapping them in cloth.
3) I'd like to know why Kthulu keeps misspelling wizard as wizurd which sounds rather insulting.
4) We apparentoy have someone willing to put up a fighter and a wizard build as well as Gm (maybe two) so let's define rules and winning conditions then get this fight in motion.
EDIT
5) As per explosive rubes in pathfinder the spell does say force damage not fire.
| Trimalchio |
some other rules I would suggest:
please provide buff order and list duration in rounds.
wish cannot be used for anything greater then listed in the spell. Limited wish (or any spell for that matter) cannot target the opponent until the match begins.
Do we allow leadership? I say no, we can always change our minds but this keeps builds easier to manage. I would also suggest either no simulacrums or a limit to them that isn't purely wealth based (such as no more than 7 as that's the limit to planeshift), do the same with planar ally/binding spells. Allow Gate but must be cast during the match and not before. I would also ban blood money.
Standard WBL, wizards must calculate spellbook cost, crafting can give 25% increase in WBL.
| Anzyr |
some other rules I would suggest:
please provide buff order and list duration in rounds.
wish cannot be used for anything greater then listed in the spell. Limited wish (or any spell for that matter) cannot target the opponent until the match begins.
Do we allow leadership? I say no, we can always change our minds but this keeps builds easier to manage. I would also suggest either no simulacrums or a limit to them that isn't purely wealth based (such as no more than 7 as that's the limit to planeshift), do the same with planar ally/binding spells. Allow Gate but must be cast during the match and not before. I would also ban blood money.
Standard WBL, wizards must calculate spellbook cost, crafting can give 25% increase in WBL.
So... nerf all caster stuff. Lets ban Spell Parry and Power Attack while we are at it. And a limit to crafting!? Blasphemy. I want my massive bonus wealth out of Craft Wondrous Item thank you very much.
Leadership ban is a good idea though. We want to compare one class against another. Not two classes.
| Roan |
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm enjoying this thread, especially the rapid-response nature of it. Good way to spend a Friday afternoon in rainy Washington State. Wish I had some popcorn :).
Reading it though I feel I can sum up some tactics and counter-tactics. It's my personal belief that mythic is almost always stronger than non-mythic. So that being said in my mind the fighter has already won. I’ll explain why below.
Point-by-point counter begins now:
1: Explosive runes tactic/: Ruined by spell immunity unless you have heightened the explosive runes to a higher level. You would need to heighten them to 9th level if the fighter knew about this ahead of time and got a hold of a scroll of greater spell immunity.
2: Time-Stop Shenanigans: A contingency spell can help with these shenanigans. The contingency is "If someone I can see casts Time Stop then I dimension door to somewhere else." Or go invisible. Or whatever. It costs some money to set-up, unless you have what I am about to describe.
3: Geas/Quest: Undone by Unbreakable Fighter 20.
All other points can probably be countered by the following:
Some folks might ask "Roan, why do you think mythic will always trump non-mythic?" and my response would be "Divine Source." The mythic ability you can pick up at Tier 3, 6 and 9 gives you spells effectively. You pick two domains the first time you take it and then 1 domain and two subdomains each time after and can cast one spell of each level per day as a spell-like ability. Remember, spell-likes have no components? And Miracle, Wish, Limited Wish, Time Stop, and Explosive Runes are domain spells you can access. In short all those cool things the wizard can do (especially tactics 1-3 listed above) said fighter can pull of with Divine Source. Sure, it's only once per day, but you don't have to pay gold for them, ever. Given enough time said fighter (or any class really) can do WHATEVER THEY WANT BECAUSE WISH DOESN'T COST MONeY. You want to turn it up to 11? Then take the feat Spell Lore and make them all Mythic. Mythic Time Stop can last for HOURS. Or Mythic Wish can be cast as an immediate action to make a d20 roll whatever you want it to be. Or be used to cast up to 8th level mythic spells YOU DON’T EVEN KNOW. I’ll give an example: Mythic Disintegrate has a fort save like the regular version but if you spend 3 mythic points to power it up it flat KILLS YOU if you fail the save.
But now we have a fighter who can cast spells (he's a god actually, so is it really spells he is casting?) up against a wizard. Does that invalidate my argument (mythic fighter wins because he is mythic)? Not within the parameters of said battle.
Admittedly Divine Source has some problems with it (what’s the caster level or save DCs of those spell-like abilities?). Even assuming worst case scenario based on the wording of other abilities (CL=Mythic Tier and DC=10+Tier+Cha) that still means you get Wish for free once per day. And that is nothing to sneeze at. You can enter the domain of GM arbitration by getting Miracle as a SLA and asking for big stuff from gods like “Kill that dumb wizard over who’s trying to kill me” as soon as your daily mythic commune ability lets you know someone is out to get you.
So Schrodinger’s wizard is countered by Schrodingers demi-god because Demi-god > Wizard because of potentially unlimited Miracles and Wishes, Miracle especially because it has the Clause “Alternatively, a cleric can make a very powerful request.”, examples being bring armies back from the dead, stop volcanoes, etc.
Others might argue that Blood Money can make for Unlimited wishes more effectively than Divine Source but it’s gonna be tough to pump your STR up past 50 reliably as a Wizard.
Likewise the Fighter could also have Undetectable on his Legendary Item which means the Wizard will never ever be able to find him ever. It’s bad news. Fighter has greater invisibility, shouts “I’ll kill you!” then moves away in some direction. Both roll for initiative (surprise round), Wizard wins (or fighter lets him win). Wizard does stuff for however many rounds he feels like (time stop, etc) but can never find fighter no matter how hard he tries. On Fighters eventual turn he kills Wizard with one mighty blow. If mighty blow does not work then Fighter moves and repeats above tactics. The Wizard can run away but the Fighter will always win eventually because he can’t be found. We will say nothing of Divine Source powers in this case; if FIghter can Divine Source stuff then it’s even less fair.
Yes, the Mythic Fighter clearly won (in my mind anyway) by stealing the Wizard’s coolest toys with god-power and then beating him to death with them. Not to mention the 10th Tier ability that explicitly states you can only be killed by artifacts or a coup de grace by someone who is Mythic. Likewise Mythic Saves gives you Evasion with all your saves. Amazing Initiative and Mythic Improved Initiative means you will always go first.
Sorry for being so long-winded, felt it was necessary. Maybe we can put this thread to rest without having to make crazy builds and arenas to fight in. Maybe.
| Anzyr |
I'm enjoying this thread, especially the rapid-response nature of it. Good way to spend a Friday afternoon in rainy Washington State. Wish I had some popcorn :).
Reading it though I feel I can sum up some tactics and counter-tactics. It's my personal belief that mythic is almost always stronger than non-mythic. So that being said in my mind the fighter has already won. I’ll explain why below.
Point-by-point counter begins now:
1: Explosive runes tactic/: Ruined by spell immunity unless you have heightened the explosive runes to a higher level. You would need to heighten them to 9th level if the fighter knew about this ahead of time and got a hold of a scroll of greater spell immunity.2: Time-Stop Shenanigans: A contingency spell can help with these shenanigans. The contingency is "If someone I can see casts Time Stop then I dimension door to somewhere else." Or go invisible. Or whatever. It costs some money to set-up, unless you have what I am about to describe.
3: Geas/Quest: Undone by Unbreakable Fighter 20.
1. Heighten can be done. But again it's irrelevent since the target has been hit with Mage's Disjunction. So the spell immunity won't save you.
2. You could do that. The Wizard has 5 rounds to find you though. Or to simple regroup and try again now that your only contingency for the day (or longer) is blown.
3. Sure. This was only mentioned cause the Fighter it was suggested against wasn't that.
Also you talk about saves. Please don't. They don't matter. None of the above tactics have saves.
Also it's super easy to get 50 STR. Just use Marionette Possession/Magic Jar on a high STR target, add some buffs and bam! Wish city. Even if you do take Divine Source you can essentially poorly imitate a Wizard which won't help you much, since the Wizard can do all of it multiple times a day. While Undetectable + Greater Invisibility is annoying, I have the reserves to carpet bomb the area with Greater Dispel Magic and Mage's Disjunction (which has a chance to hit your artifact each time to). Attrition is a battle you aren't going to win. The Wizard is always going to have more clones, simulacrums and explosive runes then you.
| Marroar Gellantara |
Honestly, you don't need the extra wealth from crafting to create a winner. Just let the rule stand.
Both the fighter and wizard I posted followed the same rules.
PRD-only, unlimited time beforehand assumed. The fighter is using longevity for the age boost in mental stats. The wizard is doubling their WBL. The fighter didn't follow WBL at all because the WBL chart does not account for mythics.
| Shadowkire |
Roan wrote:I'm enjoying this thread, especially the rapid-response nature of it. Good way to spend a Friday afternoon in rainy Washington State. Wish I had some popcorn :).
Reading it though I feel I can sum up some tactics and counter-tactics. It's my personal belief that mythic is almost always stronger than non-mythic. So that being said in my mind the fighter has already won. I’ll explain why below.
Point-by-point counter begins now:
1: Explosive runes tactic/: Ruined by spell immunity unless you have heightened the explosive runes to a higher level. You would need to heighten them to 9th level if the fighter knew about this ahead of time and got a hold of a scroll of greater spell immunity.2: Time-Stop Shenanigans: A contingency spell can help with these shenanigans. The contingency is "If someone I can see casts Time Stop then I dimension door to somewhere else." Or go invisible. Or whatever. It costs some money to set-up, unless you have what I am about to describe.
3: Geas/Quest: Undone by Unbreakable Fighter 20.
1. Heighten can be done. But again it's irrelevent since the target has been hit with Mage's Disjunction. So the spell immunity won't save you.
2. You could do that. The Wizard has 5 rounds to find you though. Or to simple regroup and try again now that your only contingency for the day (or longer) is blown.
3. Sure. This was only mentioned cause the Fighter it was suggested against wasn't that.
Also you talk about saves. Please don't. They don't matter. None of the above tactics have saves.
Also it's super easy to get 50 STR. Just use Marionette Possession/Magic Jar on a high STR target, add some buffs and bam! Wish city. Even if you do take Divine Source you can essentially poorly imitate a Wizard which won't help you much, since the Wizard can do all of it multiple times a day. While Undetectable + Greater Invisibility is annoying, I have the reserves to carpet bomb the area with Greater Dispel Magic and Mage's Disjunction...
...how many iterations of Greater Dispel and Disjunction does your wizard have prepared?
| Adept_Woodwright |
So, Ultimate Campaign does provide a written source for how a completely impartial GM should handle crafting for characters before play (1 feat = +25%, 2 feats = +50%, no more possible benefit). As we are not taking into account activities leading up to the fight (potential character deaths in previous duels, perhaps against wizards of equal caliber), we should take the 'new character creation' rule into account. That seems like a rule as written to me.
Furthermore, I seem to have failed my 'parse English' skill check. Spellbane/Enclosure operate as Antimagic Field with additional rules. Antimagic Field gives...
An invisible barrier surrounds you and moves with you. The space within this barrier is impervious to most magical effects, including spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. Likewise, it prevents the functioning of any magic items or spells within its confines.
An antimagic field suppresses any spell or magical effect used within, brought into, or cast into the area, but does not dispel it. Time spent within an antimagic field counts against the suppressed spell's duration. ...
A reader as unskilled as myself would interpret "suppresses any spell ... used within ..." to mean that spells cast from inside are suppressed, i.e. do not function. They never have the opportunity to leave the antimagic field because they were never allowed to exist in the first place. This is not dispelling the effect. By my interpretation, this hashes well with the ?flavor? text that says 'it prevents the functioning of any magic items or spells within its confines'.
Also, for Time Stop:
... You are free to act for 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time. ...
The spell gives you 1d4+1 rounds of action (5 if maximized) in which you are free to act. Again, an unskilled parser such as myself would interpret the specific wording used to indicate that after 1d4+1 rounds, the caster is *no longer* free to act. Note, the spell does not say 'You may act for 1d4+1 rounds of apparent time' which is arguably shorter and does not offer this alternate interpretation.
Have I missed the mark?
-On a side note, I presume that extend is not preferred in Time Stop because you have a variable time, so its an unknown? You would get 2d4+2 = 4 minimum, up to 10 rounds, with an average which is better than maximize would get you.
| Roxx |
I'm enjoying this thread, especially the rapid-response nature of it. Good way to spend a Friday afternoon in rainy Washington State. Wish I had some popcorn :).
Reading it though I feel I can sum up some tactics and counter-tactics. It's my personal belief that mythic is almost always stronger than non-mythic. So that being said in my mind the fighter has already won. I’ll explain why below.
Point-by-point counter begins now:
1: Explosive runes tactic/: Ruined by spell immunity unless you have heightened the explosive runes to a higher level. You would need to heighten them to 9th level if the fighter knew about this ahead of time and got a hold of a scroll of greater spell immunity.2: Time-Stop Shenanigans: A contingency spell can help with these shenanigans. The contingency is "If someone I can see casts Time Stop then I dimension door to somewhere else." Or go invisible. Or whatever. It costs some money to set-up, unless you have what I am about to describe.
3: Geas/Quest: Undone by Unbreakable Fighter 20.
All other points can probably be countered by the following:
Some folks might ask "Roan, why do you think mythic will always trump non-mythic?" and my response would be "Divine Source." The mythic ability you can pick up at Tier 3, 6 and 9 gives you spells effectively. You pick two domains the first time you take it and then 1 domain and two subdomains each time after and can cast one spell of each level per day as a spell-like ability. Remember, spell-likes have no components? And Miracle, Wish, Limited Wish, Time Stop, and Explosive Runes are domain spells you can access. In short all those cool things the wizard can do (especially tactics 1-3 listed above) said fighter can pull of with Divine Source. Sure, it's only once per day, but you don't have to pay gold for them, ever. Given enough time said fighter (or any class really) can do WHATEVER THEY WANT BECAUSE WISH DOESN'T COST MONeY. You want to turn it up to 11? Then take the feat Spell Lore and...
I am just throwing a random idea here. Could the demigod fighter, and all his unlimited wishes, wish to be immune to one spell? Like, to be immune to the effects of the explosive runes?
| wraithstrike |
wraithstrike wrote:No I'm not! Under normal conditions you do not have to have the material...BigDTBone wrote:wraithstrike wrote:Dude MME specifically says you have to use the nail to break the ball, spellcasting says you have to have a free hand, and spellcasting says that material components must be attended by the caster.The answer depends on who is controlling each character, and how they are built. Assuming they are not built knowing this encounter will take place the wizard will normally win. If they someone both know they will grow and meet an arch enemy, and know the class of the arch enemy my money is still on the wizard. However system master also matters so the fighter has a chance.
As for MME there is nothing saying two hands are needed.
As for the readied action it is a special initiative action so you can not ready it until your turn comes up.
As for the immortality issue this gets tricky. If the wizard knows things a fighter can be immune to would he be allowed to search for an artifact? Could he survive the quest? In a novel I would say yes. In a one on one combat it would fall the referee/GM.
Is the goal of this duel death or just defeat?
Maybe the fighter can be energy drained. Putting him at -20 levels may not kill him, but it should take him out at least unconscious I would say, but Paizo might have to rule on this. Con drain might also work. Putting him into permanent negative hit points would also be a defeat.
PS:The one thing I got from this since it made me take a 2nd look at some of the abilities is that I am not running a mythic game unless I get enough free time to modify some things.
By my reading of it the nail and the ball are the components, so I don't see why it can't be done in one hand. If you can handle a material component, and a focus then why not two material components?
You are adding things that are not there, by assuming you must use the nail in one hand to break the ball in the other hand.
The spell says "M (a sphere of glass worth 100 gp and an iron nail, with which you pierce the glass on casting)"
Spell casting also assumes you get the material components out as part of the casting of the spell. I see nothing in the spell that says they must be in hand before you begin casting. If so then show a quote.
The only thing special about this spell is that it has two material components.
| wraithstrike |
wraithstrike wrote:Just to make sure I am not misunderstanding anything the caster summoned/called/etc his buddy during the time stop?I was using one I brought with me on the premise that actions can be readied out of combat. The debate could be solved simply by casting Summon Monster IX while in the Time Stop, as Summoned Monsters can act immediately. Thus a summoned Nalfeshnee can cast Greater Dispel Magic on my turn and trigger the runes once the Time Stop effect ends.
Strict RAW no it can't. Otherwise people can just ready actions to be sure to go first in the init order. NPC's could also do this.
PC-->"I ready an action if NPC X cast a spell" <---An example.
It some cases it is ok to allow, but the rules only intend for it to happen during combat.
| wraithstrike |
wraithstrike wrote:In most games declaration of a hostile act gets a call for initiative, not a free spell. That mythic ability cited above just gives an AoO when you would not normally get one for those specific situations.You don't need an "I'm going to kill you now" style statement or some other grandiose show like some teenage literature might use to get clued into someone wanting to imminently hurt you. A lot of times it can be in their general mannerisms, specific phrasing, and so on just like what a sense motive check might get you. Or, if your diplomacy is pretty strong and you're going out of your way to be super reasonable but they're not budging, standing down, or keep misdirecting you that can be another clue. "Readying" doesn't have to be this big flashy thing either. It can be as subtle as keeping your hand on the pommel of a sword or thinking of a spell for "just in case." Maybe I'm used to more mature materials and not overly dramatic scenes. I simply fail to see why you can't take preparatory "actions" without overt hostility.
My point was that when the GM knows you are about to do something he is not going to give a free action. Even changing the grip on your sword, might be enough.
| Roan |
Roxx: "I am just throwing a random idea here. Could the demigod fighter, and all his unlimited wishes, wish to be immune to one spell? Like, to be immune to the effects of the explosive runes?"
Likely within the limits of a Wish spell. I believe that Elminster in the Forgotten Realms has something like 5 spells he has Wished he was immune to (Magic Missle being one of them) so there is precedent.